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EBB
Feb 15, 2005

quote:

A study released Tuesday by two Army War College professors explains how some officers maintain compliance with ever-increasing training requirements, requests for information and reams of mandatory paperwork.

They lie about it.

The service's "foundation of trust is slowly being eroded by the corrupting influences of duplicity and deceit," wrote Leonard Wong and Stephen J. Gerras in "Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession." Wong and Gerras, both former Army officers, spoke with "scores of officers" from multiple locations, compiling anonymous anecdotes about dishonest training practices, incomplete inventories, even falsified medical reports.

The authors offered multiple explanations for this behavior, but focused on the increase in required training, forms, directives other administrative layers that comes without the removal of other duties, but with the expectation of 100 percent compliance.

"When it comes to requirements for units and individuals, the Army resembles a compulsive hoarder," they wrote in the report, first featured by The Washington Post. "It is excessively permissive in allowing the creation of new requirements, but it is also amazingly reluctant to discard old demands."

This contributes to "ethical fading," according to the report — cutting corners and checking boxes in an effort to satisfy requirements becomes a common enough practice that moral objections to it eventually disappear.

The 53-page report isn't short on examples:

A captain described how his unit complied with quarterly Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Program requirements: "We needed to get SHARP training done and reported to higher headquarters, so we called the platoons and told them to gather the boys around the radio and we said, 'Don't touch girls.'"
A nine-man squad pressed for time to complete a mandatory online course "would pick the smartest dude, and he would go in and take it nine times for the other members ... and then that way they had a certificate to prove that they had completed it."
Enemy contacts in Afghanistan and Iraq would go unreported because they required a PowerPoint description after the fact, something some officers felt "was useless ... they didn't want to go through the hassle."
A captain recalled lying on a traumatic brain injury report — increasing the distance between a valued junior officer and an explosion — to avoid the possibility of a required medical evacuation. "If I do that," the captain said of the evac, "I'm going to put my boys in bags because they don't have any leadership. That ain't happening."
Dishonesty in the name of the greater good was a frequent theme of the report, offered by many officers as an explanation for their actions. Others cited the seemingly unimportant nature of the requirements being fudged, the need to keep up with other officers or units that may have inflated their performance or readiness rates, or a belief that senior leaders were aware the information being submitted was inaccurate.

"Everyone does the best they can, but we know the data is wrong," one officer told the authors.

Former battalion commanders lent some support to that theory, including one who outlined a reporting process with deadlines that required companies to "describe events that had not even occurred yet."

The authors highlighted the mandatory counseling sessions included in officer and noncommissioned officer evaluations as a frequent source of misrepresentation. The individual being rated, the rater and the senior rater must sign a support form saying these meetings take place, but the authors say meeting such a requirement "is the exception, not the rule."

"Yet each year, tens of thousands of support forms are submitted with untruthful information," the report continues. "To the average officer, it is the way business is done in the Army."

The authors, who noted that the military continues to be "filled with competent and committed servants of the nation," offered three suggestions in defeating this dishonest mindset: More open discussion of the problem and its causes, a more measured and prioritized approach to additional mandatory training, and "[a] focused emphasis on leading truthfully" that would stress morality in decision-making.

Leaders practicing dishonest behavior while preaching proper ethics create "a corrosive ethical culture that few acknowledge and even fewer discuss or work to correct," the report states. "The Army urgently needs to address the corrupting influence of dishonesty in the Army profession."

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/02/19/-army-lying-distrust-ethics/23678429/

gently caress the army

EBB fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jun 8, 2016

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its curtains for Kevin
Nov 14, 2011

Fruit is proof that the gods exist and love us.

Just kidding!

Life is meaningless
The question is who's right the officers for saying 'gently caress off' to stupid poo poo or whoever the gently caress is actually in favor of pt belts

Naked Bear
Apr 15, 2007

Boners was recorded before a studio audience that was alive!
ETS'd one year ago today. :toot:

WAR CRIME GIGOLO
Oct 3, 2012

The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

but their integrity :magical:

Nimmy
Feb 20, 2011

Soon young Melvin.
Your time will come.

Heaven forbid you only have 3 SHARP classes a year and NCOs don't get counseled every quarter.

brains
May 12, 2004

the statement "officers lie" is about as controversial as saying, "there's too much bullshit mandatory training."




gently caress the army

Mike-o
Dec 25, 2004

Now I'm in your room
And I'm in your bed


Grimey Drawer
army is gay, sky is blue.

Naked Bear
Apr 15, 2007

Boners was recorded before a studio audience that was alive!
Just wait until they find out how much fuel the Army pisses away every day! :monocle:

WAR CRIME GIGOLO
Oct 3, 2012

The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Spicy Guacamole posted:

Just wait until they find out how much fuel the Army pisses away every day! :monocle:

but i need my heater for connex guard :smith:

Syrian Lannister
Aug 25, 2007

Oh, did I kill him too?
I've been a very busy little man.


Sugartime Jones

Mike-o posted:

army is gay, sky is blue, water is wet.

gently caress the army

Fucitol
May 8, 2005

Ceterum autem censeo mundum esse delendam



Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris

this is what people get for being in the army

so gently caress em for still being in

EBB
Feb 15, 2005

Fucitol posted:

this is what people get for being in the army

so gently caress em for still being in

Mike-o
Dec 25, 2004

Now I'm in your room
And I'm in your bed


Grimey Drawer

Fucitol posted:

this is what people get for being in the army

so gently caress em for still being in

Woof Blitzer
Dec 29, 2012

[-]

Spicy Guacamole posted:

ETS'd one year ago today. :toot:

Last month I was out for 365 days :toot:
I keep thinking about reserves help

Zeris
Apr 15, 2003

Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.
As a former commissioned officer in the united states army I would just like to say

Naked Bear
Apr 15, 2007

Boners was recorded before a studio audience that was alive!

Zeris posted:

As a former commissioned officer in the united states army I would just like to say I'm gay

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
Sitting in ACAP right now. The guy that's presenting is monotonous as gently caress and keeps repeating himself. What a waste of my time. At least I'm not at work though. He honestly doesn't give any actual information that is helpful. Just parrots what's on the slides, including saying, "Aych Tee Tee Pee"

bird food bathtub
Aug 9, 2003

College Slice
I found half an hour with GiP stickies threads more informative than every separation briefing combined. Still went to every single one because gently caress the army, and double gently caress Worst Cav, but being there was about as helpful as a SGM.

Cole
Nov 24, 2004

DUNSON'D
this thread sucks

the army sucks

i'm out

one day you all will be too

unless we go back to iraq and you die

godspeed.

Androies
Oct 23, 2008

Ask me about my knives

Cole posted:

unless we go back to iraq and you die

Don't get our hopes up :smith:

WAR CRIME GIGOLO
Oct 3, 2012

The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Cole posted:

this thread sucks

the army sucks

i'm out

one day you all will be too

unless we go back to iraq and you die

godspeed.

20,000 dollar re-enlistment bonuses rolling through right now

the second surge is soon to come

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
Holy Jesus day two is worse than day one. I didn't think it was possible. This was supposed to be a happy class.

EBB
Feb 15, 2005

Pesticide20 posted:

Holy Jesus day two is worse than day one. I didn't think it was possible. This was supposed to be a happy class.

Think happy thoughts. One day soon you will wake up in a bed without an alarm going off. You won't particularly feel like getting up, but it doesn't matter because you can lie there as long as you want and no angry phone call will be incoming. Scratch the stubble on your face. Consider seeing your weed man later in the day. Everything before that blissful moment will have been a bad dream.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
ACAP was terrible because I already had a job but still had to sit through their lovely lectures and fill out their lovely workbook.

Cole
Nov 24, 2004

DUNSON'D

psydude posted:

ACAP was terrible because I already had a job but still had to sit through their lovely lectures and fill out their lovely workbook.

you can actually sign a waiver to not do acap :ssh:

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Cole posted:

you can actually sign a waiver to not do acap :ssh:

Not when you're a demobilizing reservist.

Delizin
Nov 9, 2005

It may not be interracial, but it is black and white.
When I did ACAP they didn't give a poo poo if you showed up for it or not. There was a sign in on day one and they even told you then that it was going to be the only form of attendance for the entire thing and you were welcome to not come in. However my out date ended up getting pushed back more than year and in that time orders came down from up high that ACAP was mandatory for everyone and attendance was going to be monitored. Right before I got out they told me that I'd have to repeat ACAP since it had been more than a year since I did it and they had all those new rules in place. I said gently caress that and turned in my retirement paperwork with my old ACAP sign off and it went through fortunately.

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
We have a sign-in sheet in the morning and afternoon each day. I have appointments most afternoons for physical therapy. They're telling people that we can't miss more then an hour the entire week. I gives no fucks about that. There's no way I can come to a week long class without having three appointments during that week.

Cole
Nov 24, 2004

DUNSON'D

Pesticide20 posted:

We have a sign-in sheet in the morning and afternoon each day. I have appointments most afternoons for physical therapy. They're telling people that we can't miss more then an hour the entire week. I gives no fucks about that. There's no way I can come to a week long class without having three appointments during that week.

The scheduled my ACAP for the week before I was supposed to go on terminal leave. I went to the ACAP counselor and said I didn't want to do it because you had to clear ACAP before you could clear other things, which means I would have had to stay a few days after terminal started. They just signed a piece of paper and sent me on my way.

stevenolson88
Sep 30, 2009

Dropping my refrad packet tomorrow. 8ish months left.

wirefire
Feb 22, 2011
That 5 day mandatory ACAP workshop is the worst. I remember one day having to work on a 30 second "elevator pitch" and then practicing it with other people in class.

After that's over, you're home free.

At Ft. Bliss, you can sign up online for optional ACAP classes. I signed up for the same classes multiple times, printed out the appt slips, and then canceled them. If there was something especially gay going on at the company like payday activities, I made sure to have an all day ACAP class.

Ptolemaeus
Jan 17, 2009
I just did the online portion of ACAP and scheduled my appointment. I thought this was going to be a good experience, good to know they nail you one more time on your way out.

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
There's constant talk of resume building, which I could care less about since my plan is to go to school and spend disability on weed. However, we spend most of the class listening to retards share personal stories only tangentially related to the subjects at hand, retarded hypothetical situations about "networking", and failing worse than a ninth grade drama class at improv when told to come up with skits about making phone calls looking for jobs.

e: some kid is asking about using LinkedIn to become a DJ in the barracks. Apparently he goes by DJ HeatCat or some poo poo because he's a prior heat casualty. :psyduck: Why are you feeling the need to share all of this?

e again: this counselor is a shining example of what not to do and furthers my belief that "guidance counselors" and the like are some of the dumbest people out there with a job that exists simply to exist

UP THE BUM NO BABY fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Mar 4, 2015

Rhymenoserous
May 23, 2008

Pesticide20 posted:

again: this counselor is a shining example of what not to do and furthers my belief that "guidance counselors" and the like are some of the dumbest people out there with a job that exists simply to exist

Guidance Counselors/Human Resources are just upward career paths for secretaries. Think on that while making any assumptions you need to whenever one of them opens their flap about career growth or what the gently caress ever.

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011
Deploying to gitmo, what should I smuggle back?

Leaving monday.

Delizin
Nov 9, 2005

It may not be interracial, but it is black and white.

Geirskogul posted:

Deploying to gitmo, what should I smuggle back?

Khalid Sheik Mohammad

krispykremessuck
Jul 22, 2005

unlike most veterans and SA members $10 is not a meaningful expenditure for me

I'm gonna have me a swag Bar-B-Q

Geirskogul posted:

Deploying to gitmo, what should I smuggle back?

Leaving monday.

an iguana.

the nex sucks a lot of dick, but is the biggest source of entertainment. don't walk around drinking. the usmc exchange carries (this may have changed) a huge supply of dip and titty mags, which are good bartering currencies. cable beach sucks go to windmill

Suntan Boy
May 27, 2005
Stained, dirty, smells like weed, possibly a relic from the sixties.



I knew a doctor that was forced to go through ACAP. She sat through the first day while everyone detailed their plans to become cops/construction workers back in whatever podunk town they came from, then told the ACAP lady she wasn't coming back. The good (incredibly cranky) doctor had to explain to several levels of ACAP and command that, as a board certified ER physician, she had been headhunted more or less since she graduated med school, had already been officially hired on at a hospital nearby the house she had just bought, and so was unlikely to gain much from sitting through a week long class about remembering to take your loving dip out before going into a goddamn job interview.

ACAP: OK concept, Army execution.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
That brings up a good point. It would save the Army a lot of time and money if they cut out everything except how to become a cop, a security guard who wishes they were a cop, or work for your uncle's construction company.

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stevenolson88
Sep 30, 2009

Even as an officer...when I get out I want to work construction or be a bartender for a little bit until I jump into something bigger.

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