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I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm pretty sure the 996 and 997 would easily get to 300k if people were willing to do 20k+ engine rebuilds on them like they are the air cooled cars.
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May 4, 2020 14:18
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blk posted:I don’t know much about the air cooled cars because thought they’d be off the table. There are a few gotchas: Yeah the Targa tops on the aircooled cars give me pause since they're notoriously leaky. Still...what's he asking?
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May 4, 2020 14:28
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blk posted:With monthly payments, insurance, and maintenance I’m looking at $10k/year for a car I’d drive maybe 5k miles/year. Yikes. Don't finance decades old toy cars dude.
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May 4, 2020 15:09
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Motronic posted:Don't finance depreciating assets dude. Once you get comfortable with that mindset, financial things seem to sort easier. If you don't have the money to buy it, you're not buying it, you're renting it from the bank.
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May 4, 2020 15:15
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I have no direct 993 experience but they're pretty much the same size inside as earlier cars, right? I was 10 when my dad sold his '74 911 and bought a '94 Camaro. The back seat of said Camaro was a massive upgrade. I'm tall, sure, but 911 back seats are loving tiny.
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May 4, 2020 16:06
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The backseat of air-cooled 911s has more space than you would expect, especially if the passenger seat is pushed forward a bit, but it's definitely only for people six years and under. There's only a lap belt as well so it's not really safebutwellfuckit it's a 25 year old sports car any accident is going to kill you and your family.
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May 4, 2020 16:14
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blk posted:You should get an Audi 80/90 comedy unclear, please advise
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May 4, 2020 17:51
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Motronic posted:Don't finance decades old toy cars dude. I'm curious how most cars like these are bought, even by wealthy people who can write a check . I have a feeling it's not cash, especially considering how cheap borrowing is right now.
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May 4, 2020 18:09
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borrowing is not as cheap for toys, it's a specialist lending business dominated by JJ Best, Premier, and Woodside. I think lightstream is in the game too. the lowest I have seen recently is roughly 3.5%, which isn't bad but isn't close to rates on new cars.
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May 4, 2020 18:12
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Decades-old cars that aren't depreciating anymore would seem like a pretty safe thing to finance tho?
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May 4, 2020 18:14
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Russian Bear posted:I'm curious how most cars like these are bought, even by wealthy people who can write a check . I have a feeling it's not cash, especially considering how cheap borrowing is right now. Yeah, I'm guessing it's mostly cash. Expensive new cars can be financed cheaply, but no lender wants to deal with valuing/potentially auctioning an 80s 911.
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May 4, 2020 18:15
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:borrowing is not as cheap for toys, it's a specialist lending business dominated by JJ Best, Premier, and Woodside. I think lightstream is in the game too. the lowest I have seen recently is roughly 3.5%, which isn't bad but isn't close to rates on new cars. Considering people get rates worse than that on newer used cars all the time that are still well into depreciation, this doesn't seem that bad. I may or may not be saying this to eventually talk myself into taking out a loan on an aircooled 911 at some point in the future when I have more garage.
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May 4, 2020 18:26
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:borrowing is not as cheap for toys, it's a specialist lending business dominated by JJ Best, Premier, and Woodside. I think lightstream is in the game too. the lowest I have seen recently is roughly 3.5%, which isn't bad but isn't close to rates on new cars. I started googling: quote:"Wow, who would have ever thought you could buy a Ferrari F430 for $1,200 a month. I was expecting to pay $2,500-$3,000 a month. Maybe I should buy another car!." lol
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May 4, 2020 18:31
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Russian Bear posted:I'm curious how most cars like these are bought, even by wealthy people who can write a check . I have a feeling it's not cash, especially considering how cheap borrowing is right now. It's cash. It would be freaking weird to do a deal like this in anything other than cash and I wouldn't be particularly willing to deal with a buyer who can't produce cash (whether that is from an existing line of credit/HELOC/etc - I don't care). If they want to put a loan specifically on the car they can do that later, after the transaction is done in cash.
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May 4, 2020 18:35
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:borrowing is not as cheap for toys, it's a specialist lending business dominated by JJ Best, Premier, and Woodside. I think lightstream is in the game too. the lowest I have seen recently is roughly 3.5%, which isn't bad but isn't close to rates on new cars. I like Lightstream. I got 1.9% from them when I bought my S2000. Unfortunately rates were a ton higher when buying my M3. It was still easier to deal with them vs getting a slightly lower rate as they just put money in your account vs the title/traditional loan fuckery you have to deal with when buying private party from a guy who also has a loan out on the car. I've used them twice now and have no qualms recommending them for vehicle purchases, especially when it's for an older car or something.
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May 4, 2020 18:36
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fknlo posted:I like Lightstream. I got 1.9% from them when I bought my S2000. Unfortunately rates were a ton higher when buying my M3. It was still easier to deal with them vs getting a slightly lower rate as they just put money in your account vs the title/traditional loan fuckery you have to deal with when buying private party from a guy who also has a loan out on the car. I've used them twice now and have no qualms recommending them for vehicle purchases, especially when it's for an older car or something. Is lightstream different now than it used to be or something? Don't they essentially offer unsecured loans (which is why they don't need a title) for pretty much whatever you want? Even still, for a used car loan for a private party I'm seeing 5%, which, hey, this is the Porsche thread and not the finance forum, but that's almost as bad as Porsche Financial Service's lease rates! 
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May 4, 2020 18:43
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Nidhg00670000 posted:Decades-old cars that aren't depreciating anymore would seem like a pretty safe thing to finance tho? When you default on the loan that's securitized by the car, the bank gets the car. They don't want cars, so they then have to sell it. There are great mechanisms to dispose of 1-7 year old mass market cars where banks they can quickly recover value through auctions, because there's broad and sustained demand for slightly used mass market cars. (This is also in part why most normal lenders don't gently caress with car notes on cars older than like five years). Selling a 993 at close to value is a lot harder than selling a four year old Kia Soul, and so it's a specialist business. You're also highly exposed to market downturns (guy is gonna let his 911 get repo'd before his F-150 that he uses for his contractor business or whatever, and that's right when classic car values take an absolute dump), and you have concentrated risk because classic car market valuations are pretty much entirely a matter of taste and disposable income. IOwnCalculus posted:Considering people get rates worse than that on newer used cars all the time that are still well into depreciation, this doesn't seem that bad. Sure, but that's starting interest rates. Starting interest rates for new cars are 0.0%. You figure you'll be paying a 2-3 point spread at every creditworthiness level. Again, not the end of the world. I wouldn't take out a note on a toy because it's a toy, and a lien on a toy means that you have that as fixed expense line in your budget whenever the global economy takes a poo poo or whatever, and you have a liability offsetting your nominal equity in the vehicle in the event you need to turn it in to cash. Also, the classic car market is all kinds of hosed right now (probably as a result of rampant income inequality in the US, but that's mainly speculation on my part) and you are buying in after a substantial period of high returns. No guarantee that your 911 will continue to appreciate. Residency Evil posted:I started googling: shockingly, a guy in muskegon buying a ferrari is dumb as a sack of hammers
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May 4, 2020 18:50
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Motronic posted:It's cash. It would be freaking weird to do a deal like this in anything other than cash and I wouldn't be particularly willing to deal with a buyer who can't produce cash (whether that is from an existing line of credit/HELOC/etc - I don't care). If they want to put a loan specifically on the car they can do that later, after the transaction is done in cash. nothing raises stronger red flags on a posting for a somewhat valuable/specialized used car than there being a lienholder
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May 4, 2020 18:51
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:nothing raises stronger red flags on a posting for a somewhat valuable/specialized used car than there being a lienholder Yeah, I immediately discard those also. It screams "I can't afford this, so therefore I haven't been maintaining it properly either."
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May 4, 2020 18:53
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Residency Evil posted:Is lightstream different now than it used to be or something? Don't they essentially offer unsecured loans (which is why they don't need a title) for pretty much whatever you want? Even still, for a used car loan for a private party I'm seeing 5%, which, hey, this is the Porsche thread and not the finance forum, but that's almost as bad as Porsche Financial Service's lease rates! Yeah, if your credit and income are good enough they'll just toss money in your account for you to do what you please with. When I bought the S2000 their rates were way, way better than I would have been able to get through a credit union. I think I would have been able to get about a percent less through a credit union with the M3 but the process being what it is makes it worth it. I could have just refinanced through a credit union at a lower rate after buying the car, but 
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May 4, 2020 19:11
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fknlo posted:Yeah, if your credit and income are good enough they'll just toss money in your account for you to do what you please with. When I bought the S2000 their rates were way, way better than I would have been able to get through a credit union. I think I would have been able to get about a percent less through a credit union with the M3 but the process being what it is makes it worth it. I could have just refinanced through a credit union at a lower rate after buying the car, but Do you remember what rate lightstream gave you? Are they better than the advertised rates? Penfed has always been my gold standard for car rates, and they're currently offering 3% on used cars.
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May 4, 2020 20:23
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Residency Evil posted:Do you remember what rate lightstream gave you? Are they better than the advertised rates? Penfed has always been my gold standard for car rates, and they're currently offering 3% on used cars. It was a little over 4% I think? This was almost a year ago though. They were on par with most rates, my credit unions were a bit lower.
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May 4, 2020 20:44
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fknlo posted:It was a little over 4% I think? This was almost a year ago though. They were on par with most rates, my credit unions were a bit lower. Gotcha. I was just confused by: fknlo posted:Yeah, if your credit and income are good enough they'll just toss money in your account for you to do what you please with. When I bought the S2000 their rates were way, way better than I would have been able to get through a credit union.
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May 4, 2020 20:50
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I used lightstream to cover some of my 996tt because it was only 1.74% for 3 years which is much easier than just using cash. It's over now but the entire process start to finish was great. Also 996tt's are known to be generally reliable and there's tons running well over 200k miles without major issues, often as daily drivers. It was one of the reasons I bought one, to keep it literally forever without worrying about having to rebuild everything multiple times or upgrade to something newer. 
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May 4, 2020 20:51
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Residency Evil posted:Gotcha. I was just confused by: Yeah, my bad. I bought my s2k almost 4 years ago.
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May 4, 2020 21:07
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Jymmybob posted:
Does this hold for the 997tt? Been thinking real hard about just spending the money up front rather than kicking it down the road with a cheaper NA model but an eventual engine replacement/rebuild with the due to ims and the bore scoring issues reported.
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May 4, 2020 21:22
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Yes. 997.1 are basically reskinned 996s in almost every way, including the turbos. There might be some auxiliary stuff different like I think the awd is electrically controlled vs the mechanical on 996s but that just means it's harder to turn your car into a widowmaker.
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May 4, 2020 21:40
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https://www.samsriverside.com/vehiclesDetail.php?73812 I wish I had jumped on this sooner, there's already a deposit put on it. Car had some transport truck damage but other than body/cosmetic it was fine.
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May 6, 2020 16:59
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Russian Bear posted:I'm curious how most cars like these are bought, even by wealthy people who can write a check . I have a feeling it's not cash, especially considering how cheap borrowing is right now. Tons of luxury/high end sports cars are leased. From what I understand (this is total hearsay) some will even go so far as to create a paper company for tax purposes.
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May 6, 2020 17:09
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New cars are leased for sure. I think older classic stuff is a bit more challenging although leasing companies do exist.
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May 6, 2020 20:17
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Oh yeah, I'm talking about new for sure.  Rule of thumb with used cars (or most things in general): If you don't have the cash, you shouldn't buy it. Doesn't mean you can't of course, but you really, really need to step back and think about it.
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May 7, 2020 03:38
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A friend wants an opinion on this, I don't know enough about the SUV's. Thoughts on what an appropriate price for this is? https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-porsche-cayenne-gts-10/ He owns a few kids so my attempts to get him into a 911 have failed.
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May 7, 2020 07:44
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Ether Frenzy posted:A friend wants an opinion on this, I don't know enough about the SUV's. Thoughts on what an appropriate price for this is? Well, the 2009 from yesterday went for 42 thousand American dollars soooo. Manual GTSs seem to go for mid 20s-30k or so. Take a look at what a used Cayenne from the last decade runs, and then decide if paying 30k for a used German SUV from two decades ago is worth it.
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May 7, 2020 11:59
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Even though I'm a stick shift lunatic I would be hard pressed to pay the premium they command on ancient Cayennes.
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May 7, 2020 12:07
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Even though I'm a stick shift lunatic I would be hard pressed to pay the premium they command on ancient Cayennes. Especially considering how disappointing the box is. I was not impressed in the slightest bit.
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May 7, 2020 13:37
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Re: financing; have the cash, just exploring because lending is relatively cheap right now. Paying all cash can be just as risky if the market shits and you have a ton of money tied up in a car. I would never finance anything that still has significant depreciation ahead of it. There’s a bidding war on the 993 so I’m probably out.
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May 7, 2020 14:46
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blk posted:Paying all cash can be just as risky if the market shits and you have a ton of money tied up in a car. I would never finance anything that still has significant depreciation ahead of it. So these two sentences don't make sense together. In your first sentence you seem to be talking about keeping liquidity, which.....I mean we're talking about a car not paying cash for a house. If that amount of liquidity makes or breaks you I don't think you should be buying toy cars. In your second sentence you seem to think that the thing in your first sentence ("the market takes a poo poo") wouldn't have an impact on the price of the thing you have a note on. But in fact, it just likely converts it to an underwater note. I'm not sure how the liquidity helps you there.
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May 7, 2020 14:54
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It makes sense if you have high income and don't keep tons of cash on hand or are very risk-averse. It's the exact reason I financed when I could easily have paid cash but that's regardless of depreciation.
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May 7, 2020 15:20
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I prefer to have cash on hand so I'm ok with spending a couple grand or whatever on interest over a few years to finance cars that I can afford to buy outright.
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May 7, 2020 15:24
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I prefer to have cash on hand which is why I keep cash on hand that makes me comfortable and then only buy toy cars when I can pay cash for them above and beyond that number.
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May 7, 2020 15:39
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