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Murmur Twin posted:That is correct. At this point I feel reasonably confident I know everything in the game: Hah, pretend I remembered JJ was dead when I posted that.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:19
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 17:45 |
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So you're saying you copped me as scum but then, suddenly, in your excitement to "solve" the game you then logic-ed I'm scum by virtue of your results. But if you copped me why even do that? Because you were lying about the cop result, which means you've probably been lying about other stuff all game long.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:32
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I appreciate the effort Little Mac.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:37
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Little Mac posted:So you're saying you copped me as scum but then, suddenly, in your excitement to "solve" the game you then logic-ed I'm scum by virtue of your results. But if you copped me why even do that? Because you were lying about the cop result, which means you've probably been lying about other stuff all game long. Got any examples? I kind of feel like the burden of proof is on you. Little Mac posted:I am not fully read up on the thread, tbh. That's a sucky answer, I know, but it is what it is. This has been the week from hell with my co-teacher being threatened by a gang of girl students and me being stuck in the middle so I kinda just wanna curl into a ball forever. That said, as far as this game goes I would've voted out Ernie days ago. He should've been gaming the system from day one because that's Ernie. He pretty much single-handedly broke my Habeas Corpses game by exploiting the lie detector and obliterated scum. Why wasn't he working to break the system day one? When you posted that, were you aware that I have gotten all the cop results? Why not just phrase it "what if Murmur was lying" - is it that you weren't paying attention to cop Town investigations because you already knew who scum is?
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Mar 17, 2015 04:39
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I believe in Murmur Twin, I believe in the cop ballot. ##vote Little Mac
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Mar 17, 2015 04:41
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Murmur Twin posted:Little Mac posted:
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Mar 17, 2015 04:42
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Murmur Twin posted:Like seriously, I started to try and engage on ballot-based proofs and all of it just seems like the wrong way to play this. Using a bunch of theory discussion without any actual flips is bad and all of it just feels like an attempt to stop us from casing each other. Little Mac posted:This was what I thought and I still kinda think it's okay being open. As I said earlier, I admitted I have a roleblock ballot. What does scum gain from knowing that? Not a thing. Only town gains from knowing who voted what.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:52
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I want to see some cases out of everyone.
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How in the world would I know that you have already gotten all the cop results? Also ##vote little mac. I don't feel like fighting to the death. This game was very, very town-favored imo. Since we could never eliminate your power roles and you could openly share the information gained from them and even catch us in lies about it far easier than we could disseminate false information (which relied on coin flip at best), it made it extremely easy to solve the game if you were paying attention. Outside of us getting the results, which was randomized (we could not manipulate ballots/results, really), it was purely out of our control. All we could do is hope for idiots and luck and got few of the former and none of the latter. I don't feel like I played a bad game and I don't feel like Ernie did, either (MAYBE Pmom, but I still love ya) but honestly we never stood a chance. We DEFINITELY should have had a fourth member at the very least, which would have balanced things a lot better (we would have won had the game gone as it did, however it would have been even easier to catch us in lies). Asiina was right from the beginning.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:53
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I quoted the wrong thing, this is what I meantMurmur Twin posted:It's a wild goose chase. Think about it - the order of operations goes:
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Mar 17, 2015 04:54
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I think I'm just bummed that I actually tried kinda hard as scum and it had no effect all game.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:54
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Oh oops. ##vote little mac
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Mar 17, 2015 04:54
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HEY VOTEFINDER ACCEPT MY SELF-HAMMER YOU JERK
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Mar 17, 2015 04:55
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Someone PM someone someone etc etc Soru etc etc
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Mar 17, 2015 04:55
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Little Mac posted:How in the world would I know that you have already gotten all the cop results? (sorry if I got dickish towards the end of that) I agree that this game was pretty pro-town - I'll wait until MMM declare it done until talking more.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:55
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Yeah, I was thinking it was super town favored due to 3 scum even with a hypothetical ballot manipulation.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:59
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OK we're done. Sorry for making you fight like that Mac, but I didn't want to just end the game anticlimactically. I'll talk about the set up and stuff in a moment as well as the players. The first thing I'm going to say is that the purpose of this game was to get a handle on the how a game like this would play out and then judge it from there. I knew I could not perfectly balance this game and thus, I did not actually try to make it perfectly balanced, I basically just tried to make sure it couldn't be cleanly broken. The idea for me is that it would be easier to analyze the format the less fuckery was going on. I apologize was more of an experiment than an experimental game. The second thing I'll say is that I don't think it was as lopsided as mac claims it was, even though I imagine those last few days felt bad to play through. I'll get more on this in a second.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:03
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I suppose it's not all that surprising that in a game with two different voting mechanisms for power, FRG strategy basically applied. Basically Scum was an alliance (PMom, Ernie, Mac), Meinberg and I formed an alliance (based on getting ballots by acting towniest and then being able to share information), and the town one had (a) the numbers (b) the ability to tell the truth and gain trust (c) the ability to hoard all of the power roles (d) the ability to mirror scum's ability to talk in private (e) an advantage in that scum couldn't pass to other scum Admittedly we needed to recognize this and would have possibly lost if there were 4 scum, so maybe it's not as bad as that list makes it seem.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:06
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Little Mac posted:Asiina was right from the beginning. Yes. I'm so proud of you guys for turning it around. I had pegged Ernie and Pmom on my death, but not Little Mac(I thought it was Ep+ or JJ) I briefly thought that possibly MMT was also scum though when she suddenly put forward that really weird and disingenuous anti-sharing of info thing the day after I died though.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:09
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King Burgundy posted:Yes. You were a rockstar! It was fun having you in town while you were here - your gathering of the information helped me a lot in getting a handle on the game. What ended up happening was that Meinberg and I ended up together in a room, so we had a masonry, and more or less were on the same page. Since I had confirmed WM and JJ I was able to invite them into a room, and then we were able to share info without scum seeing it (which I feel helped a ton).
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Mar 17, 2015 05:12
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Murmur Twin posted:You were a rockstar! It was fun having you in town while you were here - your gathering of the information helped me a lot in getting a handle on the game. Ahhh, yeah, that is huge.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:16
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I feel like this game favoured scum in the beginning and then tipped heavily to town's side at the end. I knew going in this set up was likely leaning to town but again, I thought it would be easier to to measure that anyway. Scum had two powers: a one time juggernaut kill and 3 extra ballots they could stuff the boxes with. An additional balancing factor came in the inclusion of a tiny block of text in the voting rooms "Sharing information is a bad idea" which made town organization much more difficult. Scum only used one of their extra ballots and I was a little confused by how they used it. I think a part of the scum's loss is their lack of coordination. They did not talk in the doc frequently and they hardly organized votes. Early on they used their juggernaut kill on kingb when they could have tried to do something else like stuff the doc box with a different target. Ernie had the most town cred in thread, but never talked in any of the docs and occasionally did not vote at all. Town's play at about midgame became very solid. Scum stopped receiving any ballots at all. This had a huge impact. The numbers were definitely funny. 15 players was needed for the setup to work well, but 4 scum would have been too many. Modkilling hiipfire was something that could not have been predicted at the beginning of the game but definitely helped the game's overall balance. Indeed, the game entered MYLO. I'm not going to pretend this was an incredibly balanced set up but I do think how it was played had an impact. Of course, going into the game, players wouldn't know how to play it, so it's not like I should expect people to do optimal play either. I have a lot of ideas for how to rebalance this, watch out for it in the future.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:18
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While it probably helped that I was town, I definitely had fun with the game. I think there's a lot of potential to the ideas in the game, and I look forward to seeing it develop further in the future.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:23
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So they had no way of knowing for sure and MMM deliberately tried to mislead them with that don't share info comment in the docs, but we now know with authority that the anti information sharing players were playing anti-town.  They know who they were!
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Mar 17, 2015 05:25
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I think overall this was successful experiment in that I have a great understanding of where to go from here. I had no clue how the dynamics would work at the start. I was worried town would never get effective use of any of their power roles because scum would keep influencing them. I was worried town would break the game if they could organize early (lol) I honestly had no clue. Now I can think of like, 2 or 3 setups that would be really really solid. In the first draft of this, The scum team had another power as well, I guess I should keep that on the DL because I might use it again but I think it would have been better balanced with that.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:25
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Meinberg posted:While it probably helped that I was town, I definitely had fun with the game. I think there's a lot of potential to the ideas in the game, and I look forward to seeing it develop further in the future.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:25
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I disagree that the game favored scum at any time, like, ever. I mean once you confirm someone as town and then send ballots back and forth it's pretty much all over. Then those confirmed town keep confirming others. Scum can do nothing. We can't keep up with the confirmations. The extra ballots were useless because there were only three, compared to the five in each room each night which we had little hand in. Even if we stuffed a ballot box, that's one night - and also not a guarantee of success (at worst a 3/8 chance - not even 50%)! It made more sense, in my mind, to save the extra ballots for later when, if town had been dumb, we could also have had regular ballots. We very rarely did. I don't think any of us, aside from the first night, had more than one ballot on any given night. Also, we definitely didn't communicate as much as I would have liked. I talked to myself a lot. I think Ernie was busy. Not sure about Pmom. The block about "not sharing information" was moot because obviously MMT and Meinberg did, plus it was very obviously in town's best interest to share information. Even if scum were in a doc with town, if we know who some of them are voting for all we can do is vote the opposite or try to kill one of the other people. It was SO luck-based. And yeah, confirmed town masonry with all power roles we could never actively eliminate. Ridiculous! I still had fun and I think it's a good idea that can be used in future games. I hope you run another in a similar vein! 
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Mar 17, 2015 05:26
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To repeat:Byers2142 posted:Confirmed. Town. MT, you were town champ these last three days.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:27
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King Burgundy posted:So they had no way of knowing for sure and MMM deliberately tried to mislead them with that don't share info comment in the docs, but we now know with authority that the anti information sharing players were playing anti-town. I don't think this is true actually. From what I could see it didn't matter if town agreed to share info or keep it hidden, as long as town agreed. If the town finished the debate and focused their energy on the actual scumhunting part of mafia, I think this game would have been shorter.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:27
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I think the voting mechanic was really neat! I think you could do a game where three players control a single PR as like a council or something, and on a player's death he/she can will that ballot to another player.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:29
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Epsilon Plus posted:I think the voting mechanic was really neat! I think you could do a game where three players control a single PR as like a council or something, and on a player's death he/she can will that ballot to another player. This sounds neat but do you confirm those first three players to each other? That's easily felled by an early claim and you confirm upwards of six or nine people.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:30
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I hope you don't feel like I'm being harsh with my posts, MMM. Again, I really liked the game! It was the first game where I really felt like I've tried hard from day one in awhile - though it's also the first time I've been scum in a long time. I'm probably just being salty and overly critical.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:32
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Byers2142 posted:To repeat: Thanks! I have learned my lesson and will never again question SCUMHUNTER. 
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Mar 17, 2015 05:33
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:I don't think this is true actually. From what I could see it didn't matter if town agreed to share info or keep it hidden, as long as town agreed. If the town finished the debate and focused their energy on the actual scumhunting part of mafia, I think this game would have been shorter. The problem is that you implied there were consequences (which there weren't) which made people hesitate, but the right play was sharing. Once Ernie flipped, for instance, that immediately confirmed three town players. That's powerful, and we kept running into the argument of "something bad will happen." I disagree that actual scumhunting would have been really effective in this game, because there were too many novel parts to it. Unfortunately, you're never going to get usual scum behavior in a game like this until we've collectively got a few under our belts. Until then, testing the systems is what we should be doing, both as scum and town.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:33
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:I don't think this is true actually. From what I could see it didn't matter if town agreed to share info or keep it hidden, as long as town agreed. If the town finished the debate and focused their energy on the actual scumhunting part of mafia, I think this game would have been shorter. Ehhh. I agree there was excessive wheel spinning since we never came to a consensus, but I don't agree the results would have been the same with no sharing of info. I guess it is impossible to prove definitively at this point though.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:34
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Also, I was completely shocked when Byers flipped town. After I cased him I felt like I was sooo right and that result left me questioning everything in my head the next day (while I was offline).
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Mar 17, 2015 05:35
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Little Mac posted:This sounds neat but do you confirm those first three players to each other? That's easily felled by an early claim and you confirm upwards of six or nine people. This is key. If you can determine alignment due to mechanics, you have to treat it as extra cops. If I were you, MMM, I'd remove the part about scum not being able to pass to scum. It's too much to try to balance around.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:35
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Little Mac posted:I disagree that the game favored scum at any time, like, ever. I mean once you confirm someone as town and then send ballots back and forth it's pretty much all over. Then those confirmed town keep confirming others. Scum can do nothing. We can't keep up with the confirmations. The extra ballots were useless because there were only three, compared to the five in each room each night which we had little hand in. Even if we stuffed a ballot box, that's one night - and also not a guarantee of success (at worst a 3/8 chance - not even 50%)! It made more sense, in my mind, to save the extra ballots for later when, if town had been dumb, we could also have had regular ballots. We very rarely did. I don't think any of us, aside from the first night, had more than one ballot on any given night. I think you're definitely right about the late game when meinberg and MMT were able to clean up, but it's very had to predict and balance on how the late game will run without knowing how the early game will. The ballot stuffing I imagined being used to misdirect a target. Switch the doc target etc. It's easier to see the best way to use them from a bird's eye view though and running with 5 ballots at least would have been better. Design-wise I was not particularly pleased with the random element, I had trouble coming up with an alternative. I'll think of ways to iron it out. One thing that really killed the scum team was not getting any ballots. I think this would have played out very differently if the scum were able to attract ballots. I think a byers/somber type of high activity scum could have really wrecked this game. Little Mac posted:I hope you don't feel like I'm being harsh with my posts, MMM. Again, I really liked the game! It was the first game where I really felt like I've tried hard from day one in awhile - though it's also the first time I've been scum in a long time. I'm probably just being salty and overly critical. I don't think you're being too harsh and this is needed for me to improve it. I feel bad for particularly you in this game, but I do think some of the fault lied with the scum team as well.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:36
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Byers2142 posted:This is key. If you can determine alignment due to mechanics, you have to treat it as extra cops. If I were you, MMM, I'd remove the part about scum not being able to pass to scum. It's too much to try to balance around. No way. If scum can pass to scum, they will control all the ballots in short order.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:36
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Okay yes, apologies! I had too much faith.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:37
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 17:45 |
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Murmur Twin posted:Also, I was completely shocked when Byers flipped town. After I cased him I felt like I was sooo right and that result left me questioning everything in my head the next day (while I was offline). Hahaha. Outside of JJ he was probably the most on his game town player up until his death.
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Mar 17, 2015 05:37
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