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Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Promised I'd play.

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Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Coinfirmed.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

Confirmed.

One person from each group should just bite the bullet and say what the powers are.

I'm in the roleblocker room.

I'm in the cop room.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Once we reveal the third power, we can discuss openly in this chat who we should use what powers on, instead of just discussing in the voting room.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Little Mac posted:

I'm also in the roleblocker room.

Little Mac nooooo.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer


Only one per room is to reveal so we all know what the rooms are and can further discuss them without giving away what everyone's ballots are.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Okay we have a cop room, doc room, and roleblocker room. We should target the cop room and doc room on the same person d1, so scum doesn't just kill the cop target if they're town. Who that target it is up for debate. We should probably roleblock whoever the second most-wanted puppy cuddle is.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

wall monitor posted:

All the tswift avatars make it hard to tell who's who.

Why did I type this?

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Fast Luck posted:

This is a good question. MMM warns us to stay anonymous saying scum could gain an advantage but I'm not sure I see it?

This is just some setup speculation, but it's possible scum have a power role to steal a ballot during the night from its intended target by targeting the person who was holding it.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

^ :(

Epsilon Plus posted:

I'd guess a swap more than a steal. Scum holding two ballots in the same room would be rough to handle.

Which is why we should decide all targets in this chat. That way all town players are in consensus and any less than 3 scum-controlled ballots in the same room can't control the power.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

GUESS WHO'S LYING


Grimey Drawer

Let's stop asking hard questions and start asking harder questions: Who is scum?

Is it you, Ernie.? How could you do this to me, Ernie.? I trusetd you! TRUSETD YOU!

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

HiipFire posted:

##vote jon joe
hth

ty

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Votecount in the OP, please, MMM.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Murmur Twin posted:

Is there a reason not to openly say which group we're in? I feel like the town knowing who has what on day 1 will help provide information to analyze later in the game.

Nothing except the ballot area states that revealing your ballot is a potentially bad idea. I doubt MMM would state that if it weren't true.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

GUESS WHO'S LYING


Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

Oh, I just had more thoughts, but they are going to depend on whether we want to be open with information or closed with information.

If we decide open is good, we should roleblock someone in the roleblock room to make sure the doc or cop isn't accidentally blocked. Especially early on.

If we decide closed is good, the cop should say their result anonymously in their doc and someone else can report it to the thread.

It's really hard to know without knowing which way to go on this. I'm leaning let's just get it all out in the open though.

This is democracy mafia, should we take a vote?

Closed w/ information. We don't need to know who had what ballot to decide targets in this thread. I think it's fine if someone who HAD a ballot reveals the results, though, since they don't necessarily have the same ballot again on the next day. No reason to announce in the cop vote doc, especially since they can only do so if they have a cop ballot again.

Also, one thing we should be cognizant of is that, if a scum receives the cop, they can lie about the result. This is more of a problem later in the game than earlier though, imo we shouldn't trust unconfirmed cops at all (even ones performed in the past) if it's lylo or mylo.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

I like that we immediately have something to discuss that isn't jokevoting.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Some setup spec:

Maybe two scumteams of 3 each?

If not, I'm willing to bet there's a town vig and/or third party serial killer/some funky role.

This way there are benefits to the mafia controlling the abilities besides wrestling away town control.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

GUESS WHO'S LYING


Grimey Drawer

Epsilon Plus posted:

What happens if a player controls multiple ballots for a room? Will we know if that happens?

We wouldn't know it, I don't think, but I'm pretty sure this exact situation is going to be common.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

GUESS WHO'S LYING


Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

I don't like this post at all.

More and more I feel like keeping things quiet just gives scum somewhere to hide.

I also don't like how you are suggesting being closed with information but also that once it's the next day there is no issue with knowing what happened the previous day.

We don't know what powers scum have, we don't know what is or isn't important which is why I think either complete silence about who is where or complete openness is the way to go and anything else suggests outside information.

I understand what what you are saying, but I do not agree; may I ask you some questions?



In what way do you believe closed information may give scum somewhere to hide?

Also, what possible roles do you foresee influencing ballots some way based on the original holder after they have already be given (aka, next day)? I guess there could be a third party who wins by naming all original ballot holders, but I don't think MMM would put something like that in this game.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

GUESS WHO'S LYING


Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

If we don't say anything about who we are sending or sent our ballots to then scum don't have to account for ballots. Scum could steal them or scum could redirect them and nobody would know. Also if a scum flips there is no way to know who they got their ballot from or sent their ballot to if it's all after the fact.

If everyone claims their ballots each day we can always account for all 15. If ballots are missing then we know which rooms have been compromised. If I say I'm giving my roleblocker ballot to Ernie and he doesn't get it we know I'm lying, Ernie's lying, or someone messed with the transaction, which isn't useful on its own but we can know for sure that 1 of the rooeblocker votes is compromised.

As for multi-day powers I don't know. I can't think of anything in particular, but I have no reason to believe the next day will be safe. I just think saying what we did after the fact isn't as useful as announcing it before.

We have to say after the fact, though, to announce the results? Sorry, I think there's a confusion here; I'm merely talking about a lack of risk in a closed-information system when the person who had performed the power announces it in this thread, since they do not necessarily have the same power again. I agree, confirming ballot paths after the fact is useless, due to the incomplete info caused by death.

Your method for revealing info to account for missing ballots is interesting, I did not think of it that way. However, it makes an assumption that knowing all the ballot holders and ballot-giving targets is not advantageous to scum and that they cannot take advantage of that information in some way. Which, due to MMM's warning, it's a real possibly that scum do have that power. Whether it's 1-shot or not though, it's effectively 1-shot; either they use it once and we realize it, so we stop announcing ballots, or they save it for a key day, say the day before lylo.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

jon joe posted:

We have to say after the fact, though, to announce the results? Sorry, I think there's a confusion here; I'm merely talking about a lack of risk in a closed-information system when the person who had performed the power announces it in this thread, since they do not necessarily have the same power again. I agree, confirming ballot paths after the fact is useless, due to the incomplete info caused by death.

Your method for revealing info to account for missing ballots is interesting, I did not think of it that way. However, it makes an assumption that knowing all the ballot holders and ballot-giving targets is not advantageous to scum and that they cannot take advantage of that information in some way. Which, due to MMM's warning, it's a real possibly that scum do have that power. Whether it's 1-shot or not though, it's effectively 1-shot; either they use it once and we realize it, so we stop announcing ballots, or they save it for a key day, say the day before lylo.

Sorry if this post is confusing, please ask me anything you are unclear on, Asiina and/or other readers.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Also, I think MMM said in the OP that if the ballot-receiving target dies, their ballots are jettisoned to random players. So at the very least, should we diplomatically decide to keep ballots open, we should keep an open spread with no player receiving more than 1 ballot to prevent death jettisons.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Wait, as soon as players die, clumping of ballots is inevitable. Ugh, annoying.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

Clumping is inevitable, but openness does help us keep it more spread, especially between rooms.

Right. To summarize, the advantage of openness is an even vote spread and ballot accountability, while the disadvantage is scum possibly having mass manipulation when they have access to all-open information. In my opinion, the disadvantage outweighs the advantage. Would you agree this accurate, Asiina?

I look forward to hearing the opinions of others.


Meinberg posted:

Still, I don't think there's an option to not use a given power on a night.

I think you are correct.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Fast Luck posted:

I opened a reply window before I went out to get snow off the car so there are like 10 posts I hadn't read before I wrote that.

Also, did Day 1 actually start yet?

Yes.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

Friends, before we get too into mafia, I want to talk about the mechanics and your opinions on them.

I, too, want opinions, but it's fine if people get into mafia.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

I think wall monitor is genuine in this interaction.

CCKeane fanclub represent.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

I also suggested a content game

Cop/doc a high quality player.

Roleblock second most-wanted cuddle.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

jon joe posted:

Roleblock second most-wanted cuddle.

Though this does open to scum vote manipulation, hmmmm.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

This isn't what I asked.

Did you want specific player names?

Because I can give you list of who I consider high quality players.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

HiipFire posted:

if im not on it im gonna vig you

You're not on it.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Murmur Twin posted:

- If scum know who the town is going to cop, they have both the roleblock and the NK to potentially make town lose the information.

If I may interject my opinion here:

That's why we doc the cop target, at least night 1.

Also not discussing the doc target renders the doc in control of the scum if there's at least 2 scum in there. We can protect high-value people with it. Night 1 it's the cop target. Night 2+ it's the cop target from night 1 if we got town, or some town power role who revealed.

Thank you for reading my opinion.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

How is this a good idea? At all?

In a standard game, openly planning night actions is bad for town. This game is no different.

Unfortunately we have no choice to openly plan, even the docs are open planning if there's even 1 scum in them.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

What's important to me is the ballot passing. Ernie's idea to use it as a type of cop is great. It's why I'm drawn to agree with Asiina; we share openly about what we're doing with our ballots today.

Hmmm, fair. I wonder how punishing MMM made the scum ability , if any, to counter this situation, though?

If he did, I guess we're playing into it. If he didn't, we broke the game open.

:u

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

I've got a question out to MMM, and once he answers I'm going to share what I'm doing with my ballot openly in the thread. I'd encourage everyone else to share the same information I do, because then we can track the ballots.

When you say you plan to share openly, which of the following applies (check all that apply):

A) Your room
B) Your target
C) The person you're giving your ballot to

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

A and C for sure, and more besides. B I'm still weighing in my head, but I'm inclined to say target chat should stay in the docs on the off chance we get a scum-free room, but that we need to claim the target we're voting for in the room and it should be revealed the next day. Again, so we can track discrepancies.

Okay.

After MMM answers your question, let's have an in-thread ballot as to whether A and C is something everyone wants to reveal and why/why not. Thank you for your words, Byers. I appreciate them. :)

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

wall monitor posted:

Deadline is in about 24 hours. I have an irrational hatred of no-euphemism D1's and might just hammer myself rather than let D1 go without a euphemism, if it looks like it might go that way.

Oh, is the deadline that close? Well'p.

I vote for. Little. Mac.

##vote Little Mac

What? You want a reason? Well, it's a lurker vote! Hohoho!

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

Why wait? In fact, what is the debate? Revealing what room(s) you're in and who you are sending your ballot to is the only way to have a hope at tracking ballots. It is absolutely something scum do not want to have tracked. I can see arguments for the power targets being revealed or not, but not wanting people to know who you gave your ballot to is scummy in this game.

My question to MMM is about finding a way to verify specific ballots. To wit: in each room we were given a voter number (Voter 1, Voter 2, etc.). When I give my ballot away, does the person I gave it to have the same number? If so, we can track the individual ballots much easier by referring to each ballot as ROOM-NUMBER.

Ah! Interesting.

Also, ballot tracking only works in a world where MMM did not design the game to counter this tactic (in a likely punishing way), which is why some (such as myself) are against this idea.

Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

If we trying tracking them and it becomes clear that it's hurting us, we stop. But refusing to do it from the start denies us the opportunity to even try to use it. You're using people's fear of the unknown to make them avoid doing something that could be hugely helpful.

Byers, could you answer a hypothetical question for me?

Day 1, player A announces they are passing their ballot to player B.

Day 2, player B announces they did not receive a ballot from player A.

What is your assumption?

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Jon Joe
Oct 19, 2011

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Grimey Drawer

Byers2142 posted:

Three people say they passed a ballot to X. One of those three dies in the night. X gets two ballots. What room was the now dead player in?

Passers dying does not prevent the receiver from receiving, I believe.


Byers2142 posted:

I can't answer that; the hypothetical is too vague. Who are the players? Who got the ballot (which we know because we've shared the rooms we're in)? If someone else is in them that shouldn't be, how did they get the ballot? That's why we should share openly, because we can look for the patterns and the discrepancies, but your question ignores the whole of the issue to try and focus on a singular event. You can't do that.

Nevermind.

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