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That plan was stupid. Kilgrave killed or otherwise violated many, many people as a result of trying to save one girl from prison. Guess those folks don't count.tin can made man posted:I love how the Armchair Vigilantes in this thread seem to forget that the position of "He keeps killing people, so Jessica Jones needs to kill him you loving idiots!" was literally espoused, many many times, by the series' secondary villain. And yet our heroes prove him correct in the end. Great writing, that. Yudo fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 09:03
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Yudo posted:That plan was stupid. Kilgrave killed or otherwise violated many, many people as a result of trying to save one girl from prison. Guess those folks don't count.
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Nov 27, 2015 09:20
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Yudo posted:That plan was stupid. Kilgrave killed or otherwise violated many, many people as a result of trying to save one girl from prison. Guess those folks don't count. Yudo posted:And yet our heroes prove him correct in the end. Great writing, that.
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Nov 27, 2015 09:32
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BrianWilly posted:Which folks are you talking about, exactly? Who did he kill at that point that he wouldn't have killed anyway? Uh, the first time they dosed him, had JJ just killed him = tons of spared misery, "anyway" or otherwise. The second attempt would have gotten all involved sent to prison, so much for friendship. That one went wrong too (guess they need three strikes?) which of course unleashes a new wave of Kilgrave. Having the same crisis over and over with the same resulting conflicts and resolution gets tedious. the problem I have is that the exposition to justify not just killing him was loving terrible and was there to stretch out the series. Easily avoided by a few filler "mystery of the week" episodes, which also would have been fun.
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Nov 27, 2015 09:34
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The mystery of the week episodes you guys keep calling for...I dunno, I'm skeptical. I mean the one episode like that had the weakest plot of the season. Plus mystery of the week poo poo about killed Agents of Shield.
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Nov 27, 2015 09:35
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It worked great for X-Files; have her deal with lots of outlandish poo poo and allow her to be cynical, hard drinking, etc. It's a staple of the detective genera.
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Nov 27, 2015 09:38
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Yudo posted:Uh, the first time they dosed him, had JJ just killed him = tons of spared misery, "anyway" or otherwise. The second attempt would have gotten all involved sent to prison, so much for friendship. That one went wrong too (guess they need three strikes?) which of course unleashes a new wave of Kilgrave. The only reason the second attempt failed was because it was sabotaged; there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the plan itself, or its execution. Jessica could have planned to kill him, and Jery still could have sabotaged the plan and then got people killed. And even then, I reiterate, the plan still would have worked if Simpson didn't murder the remaining witness and destroy the evidence. Should I also remind you that Simpson's plan to kill Kilgrave involved blowing up two three innocent people? Guess those folks don't count.
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Nov 27, 2015 09:42
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BrianWilly posted:So, you can see that the first failed attempt caused no deaths. In fact, after that attempt, Jessica took it upon herself to stop Kilgrave from killing more people by sending pictures of herself to him every day, degrading herself in the process. I'm not going to re-watch but he for sure mind violates plenty of people post first attempt. Simpson also wanted the one-shot-one-kill approach rather than darting him. Regardless, also not sure evidence resulting from torture is admissible hold on let me call Gitmo...nope, it's not. Oh, and said plan was predicated on him killing mom or otherwise mindfucking someone, so, yeah. You need to accept that it was thin as gently caress for 13 one hour episodes and way too much to dedicate on one conflict. Edit: if it were 13 episodes finding the rings of power spread throughout the universe or whatever to defeat the galactic evil than okay, but this was a dude easily dispatched and thus they had to write themselves into a knot to justify not doing it. Yudo fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 09:49
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Not enough love going on for "Obi-Wan Kenobi?" "But cooler."
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Nov 27, 2015 09:56
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Yudo posted:Regardless, also not sure evidence resulting from torture is admissible hold on let me call Gitmo...nope, it's not. Yudo posted:Oh, and said plan was predicated on him killing mom or otherwise mindfucking someone, so, yeah. You need to accept that it was thin as gently caress for 13 one hour episodes and way too much to dedicate on one conflict. I don't even disagree that the series really dragged, but the justifications they gave for keeping Kilgrave alive were completely sound.
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Nov 27, 2015 10:19
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I'm gonna throw out my useless opinion here too. I acknowledge all the flaws previously pointed out, especially the point in regards to how many innocents died because JJ didn't just rip his heart out in episode 6/7. But... I liked this a lot. For me it was a little bit better than Daredevil, probably because ole Kevin is the creepiest bad guy I've seen on my TV screen in a long time.
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Nov 27, 2015 10:52
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Next time I see Simpson he better have an American flag tattooed on his face.
yaffle fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 11:15
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They weren't holding him to win a trial the legal way so much as prove mind control exists. I mean there's no precedent in the US legal system for mind control. You've gotta do some unorthodox things for this poo poo.
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Nov 27, 2015 11:48
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The Sharmat posted:They weren't holding him to win a trial the legal way so much as prove mind control exists. I mean there's no precedent in the US legal system for mind control. You've gotta do some unorthodox things for this poo poo. I would've liked to see more of Jessica's time with Kilgrave. It felt a bit silly that he only had her kill a single person and we basically saw nothing of their time together. Also, when the old lady blew herself up with Simpson was when I decided Jessica was kind of a collosal gently caress up for not just killing him immediately. However, shouldn't his power of been nullified then meaning she wouldn't of done that?
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Nov 27, 2015 13:09
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The Sharmat posted:Even if we accept that this is the case, protagonists being wrong and changing their minds is not bad writing. Unless the only media you consume are comics and cartoons, I guess. Kind of an inappropriate place to make that burn, don't you think?
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Nov 27, 2015 15:38
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PriorMarcus posted:I would've liked to see more of Jessica's time with Kilgrave. It felt a bit silly that he only had her kill a single person and we basically saw nothing of their time together. They might be saving that for the future. They showed her killing Luke's wife because Luke was around and that event was on her mind. Flashbacks to other misdeeds she committed could be used to tie in future characters, and allows the continued use of Tennent.
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Nov 27, 2015 15:47
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I'm on episode ten and headed towards the end, and this show is surprisingly terrible. There's a lot to like about it. First of all, it's really refreshing to see a female lead on television who doesn't owe anybody anything, least of all pleasantries; on a baseline level Jessica is one of the most realistic women on TV I've ever seen. Also, Trish is a really charming character. The scene where she goes off on Kilgrave on her radio show early in the series is a great moment and really sold me on the fact that she's whip-smart herself and also doesn't take poo poo. Every scene with David Tennant is arresting and Murdercorpse's interactions with his victims are an excellent indictment of the kind of narcissism that patriarchy invites men to feel and indulge in on a lifelong basis. On the other hand, I don't think watching this show all at once was a good call for me because it's really staggering how much pointless poo poo happens. There is literally no forward movement in this show, at all, ever, without Jessica or unless someone does something really pointless that has to be directly undone two scenes later. I think Daredevil is a different beast and a difficult basis for comparison, but on the other hand the very real absence of Matt from his friends' lives does force them to progress the plot on their own--Karen is a huge part of the driving action in Daredevil and her investigative work is a great focal point for the show. Comparatively, the entire supporting cast of Jessica Jones is hugely paralyzed plot-wise until Jessica literally physically runs up to them with the plot hot on her heels. Trish spontaneously has a lead to Kilgrave's bodyguards, or whatever. It would've been great to see how she got that lead--but then she's shut down immediately. Malcolm drags a body into a river--but then the purpose of that scene was shut down immediately. Jessica spends two episodes trying to get almost-retired black cop to pay attention to her--but then his purpose in the basement cell is rendered pointless almost immediately, and then the guy is subsequently (and with no less immediacy) sacrificed to really hammer in that Nuke is on magic steroids. In Daredevil, the sacrifice of Ben Urich is goddamn terrible because he's a developed character outside of his immediate use to Team Matt; in this show, it seems like they just killed a black guy who could've been helpful for advancing the plot but made the mistake of being expected to do so. Ostensibly this is to show that the action between Jessica and Kilgrave is intended to feel like a high-stakes cat-and-mouse game, and on a meta level it may demonstrate that everyone in Jessica's life is actually potentially a pawn--they literally cannot advance without the guiding hand of Murdercorpse, or Jessica's hand when she assumes control of the action. But mostly it shows that everyone accomplishes a vast amount of jack poo poo, and that this supporting cast could have been cut neatly in half or perhaps the episode count could have been lowered in ways that would have been hugely beneficial to this show actually feeling like it gets somewhere even half of the time. Wow, that ended up long, sorry. Also the dialogue is sometimes really bad 
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Nov 27, 2015 15:55
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Yudo posted:] But it doesn't? Recall that the final scene is Jessica in her office, deleting voicemails of frantic New Yorkers who are convinced she's a hero. Murdering Kilgrave gives her no satisfaction, no catharsis, and no justice. While its true that Kilgrave can no longer kill anyone (Kilgrave's victims are in no way Jessica's responsibility, either, yet posters here and the character herself seem to be convinced of that), in no way has the wreckage left in Kilgrave's wake been cleared or even tidied up. The final scenes of the show are intentionally devoid of triumph - all that's been accomplished is that one last body can be thrown on the pile, and the only consolation in that sentiment is the "last" part.
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Nov 27, 2015 18:16
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From my interpretation of the character of Jessica Jones/the show overall I don't think it would have made a difference in that final scene if she had actually gotten him tried legally/not had to kill him. Like, even if she had gotten everything she wanted outwardly; Hope being found innocent/Kilgrave getting exposed/etc, she still wouldn't have forgiven herself. That kind of absolution of guilt has to come internally. I don't think that last scene is supposed to be, "I'm still not happy because I had to kill him.", I think it's, "Despite finishing Kilgrave I still don't have the satisfaction or release I thought I would." I don't know for sure what the writers' intentions were of course, but the 'not receiving absolution through external means' resolution is a pretty common one in fiction.
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Nov 27, 2015 18:52
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tin can made man posted:I love how the Armchair Vigilantes in this thread seem to forget that the position of "He keeps killing people, so Jessica Jones needs to kill him you loving idiots!" was literally espoused, many many times, by the series' secondary villain. Like, do people think that Officer Nuke Simpson - the black ops badass who's always hangin with His Boys and looks like Captain America and argues "Why doesn't Batman just kill the Joker? What a pussy" - being a mentally-incapable, degenerate monster is an accident?
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Nov 27, 2015 19:20
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PriorMarcus posted:I would've liked to see more of Jessica's time with Kilgrave. It felt a bit silly that he only had her kill a single person and we basically saw nothing of their time together. No, that's the thing about Killgrave, he isn't mustache twirling, supervillain evil. He doesn't just go around killing people for poo poo and giggles. He comes through, takes what he wants, and leaves. His violence is largely petty and off hand. The man who threw coffee in his own face or his mom with the iron to her face are examples. His mother and father were the only truly premeditated kills. He kills banana bread man when he catches Killgrave in Jessica's office and professes his love for Jessica. He tries to kill Luke in a quick fit of jealousy. He tries to kill Simpson as a delay tactic to keep Jessica busy as he gets away. Trish he offhandedly tells to put a bullet in her head, and it's not clear how serious he actually is about it. He only uses the threat of having someone kill someone else to keep Jessica at bay. There's very little reason to have Jessica killing people when Killgrave can have them kill themselves or they simply follow his orders. Especially keeping in mind that he "loves" Jessica and just wants her to happily do everything he asks for. quote:Also, when the old lady blew herself up with Simpson was when I decided Jessica was kind of a collosal gently caress up for not just killing him immediately. It's not clear how the drugs actually affect him. He won't let the doctor put him under and Jessica extrapolates from there. There's also the issue that his command for the old lady was just to give a package to some guys. The more innocuous the command Killgrave gives you the less you question it and likely the stronger the suggestion. If you don't want to kill someone and he makes you do it, and wavering in his power will probably quickly free you. On the other hand if he tells you to open a door, that's probably going to take more than a simple wavering of power to get you to question.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:04
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Calico Heart posted:To me the popularity of Daredevil is just baffling. It was full of boring characters and storylines that lead nowhere and meant nothing. Dinofrio turned in one of the most embarassing performances of his career and people ate it up like it was fantastic. Even the action, while having a few cool fight scenes, was general TV-level blandness. It was a remarkably unappealing show visually which only heightened how pointless all the dialogue was. Any effective TV drama it did about a superhero with an alter ego was done quicker and better by Arrow years ago, albeit with much cheesier dialogue. I got nothing out of the characters, except I was kinda happy that Foggy and whatsherface got together because they seemed nice. Matt was just ridiculously boring. There were no stakes - "uh oh, will the superhero protagonist beat up his latest antagonist?! Oh, yes. Yes, he will and he did." It was obvious that the entire series was going to come down to a fistfight between him and Kingpin. When Stick came into it, it got a little bit interesting, because suddenly there was someone with a personality who cut through the alter ego bullshit but then he left as quickly as anything. Whereas in Jessica Jones, I didn't know what was going to happen to Hope, or Hogarth, or Trish, or Simpson, or Kilgrave for that matter. And I had feelings about all of them. Jessica Jones was just a lot more INTERESTING, overall, even in the parts I disliked. The only part that was a failure in the same vein as Daredevil was the fact I knew Luke Cage was going to be fine at all times because he's getting a show. So two cliffhangers in a row with him being blown up and then shot was like "yeah, i feel nothing because the one thing i know about him is he's invincible, regardless of his powers." I thought D'Onofrio was fine though. (It's just that I had no reason to care about all the scenes with him and his ladyfriend. Like what were we supposed to get out of that? His professional pal with the glasses was a thousand times more interesting and less cartoonishly evil.)
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Nov 27, 2015 20:19
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The question of whether killing Kilgrave is The Right Thing To Do is obviously not clear-cut, as evidenced by the controversy in this thread alone. But more importantly, it's totally irrelevant. Jessica is not out to save the world, and she is not making decisions based on what will lead to the best world for the most people. She's psychologically incapable of shouldering that kind of burden (or at least she believes herself to be, which effectively amounts to the same thing). The idea of Jessica asking "What will save the most lives" and consistently making decisions on that basis is laughable, as if Iron Man walked up to Malcolm while he was chained to the toilet and invited him to suit up and fight terrorists. Suiting up and fighting terrorists is obviously the morally superior choice compared to sitting at home and struggling with addiction day after day. But it's also totally out of the question. What Jessica is capable of--again, in her own mind--is fairly modest. She can work a case to help one person at a time (like Hope) and later a few more (like the support group). She can try to fix a few problems for which she feels personally responsible. And in the process she can do some good, beat her demons back, and work her way up to taking on a little more. Trish may or may not feel differently (I don't recall) but she's following Jessica's lead.
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Nov 27, 2015 20:40
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McNerd posted:The question of whether killing Kilgrave is The Right Thing To Do is obviously not clear-cut, as evidenced by the controversy in this thread alone. But more importantly, it's totally irrelevant. Jessica is not out to save the world, and she is not making decisions based on what will lead to the best world for the most people. She's psychologically incapable of shouldering that kind of burden (or at least she believes herself to be, which effectively amounts to the same thing). Good show. Wish I could have said it this well. Like, in a sense the people who are saying that killing Kilgrave right away is the best thing to do are right, and it's what Jessica 'should' have done, and it's a mark against her for not doing it. But that doesn't make the show badly written, and it doesn't make Jessica badly written or even a bad or dumb person. She's trying to work through her poo poo as best she can. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 20:43
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BrianWilly posted:Y'all weirdos are aware that the plea deal Hope got offered, the one that got her "only" twenty years in prison if she confessed to murdering her own parents, was a last minute cheap ploy by the DA, right? Before that point, Hope was going to spend her entire life in jail if Jessica couldn't prove Kilgrave's existence. But oh yea sure, Jessica should just kill him. Good plan. I'm glad Hope isn't as dumb as you are and killed herself because she could see that the greater good was for Kilgrave to die asap before he fucks up more people. Nuke was right and should've used a real gun instead of tranqing him.  He would've 100% gotten away with it too as a white man, vet and a cop.BrianWilly posted:Even if they can't present the tape -- as if Hogarth couldn't find a way around that if she wanted to -- they can still present Clemons' witness account of the incident itself. Why do you think Simpson killed him, along with the evidence? All they would have to do is to plant doubt in even one single juror's mind, in or out of court, and the trial is hung. Either way, it would force the police department to have to take Kilgrave seriously, and put him away for good. Why yes your honor, I saw this man getting tortured then maybe someone else did a thing he said. GUILTY! She totally should have used her super jump and landed on his head. Then spend the next 10 episodes banging Luke Cage, drinking and solving cases. 
CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 21:15
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VagueRant posted:Oh my god, thank you, I honestly thought I was the only one. I'm really confused by the praise Daredevil gets and by how many people preferred it to Jessica Jones. I didn't HATE it, but I just don't see any real positives beyond, "that long take was kind of cool". It's like you say, it's just dull. Well, the short answer to this is that people have different tastes and preferences. For me personally, I found the characters of JJ engaging but the plotting and pacing was so egregious that I couldn't enjoy the show. Basically: Swillkitsch posted:On the other hand, I don't think watching this show all at once was a good call for me because it's really staggering how much pointless poo poo happens. There is literally no forward movement in this show, at all, ever, without Jessica or unless someone does something really pointless that has to be directly undone two scenes later. I think Daredevil is a different beast and a difficult basis for comparison, but on the other hand the very real absence of Matt from his friends' lives does force them to progress the plot on their own--Karen is a huge part of the driving action in Daredevil and her investigative work is a great focal point for the show. The big difference between Daredevil and JJ imo is that DD constantly ratchets up the tension and doesn't let go. The question is not whether or not Matt wins: the question is how much will he lose on his way to victory. Will he stay true to his noble intentions or give in to evil? That's the purpose of his interactions with the Catholic priest, to get inside Matt's head and understand his morality. Jessica Jones tries to do something similar and for some people that works. For others it fell flat, and it all seems to hinge on whether you liked the pacing of the show. I didn't so I don't get a whole lot out of it.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:40
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They seem to have succeeded in capturing pretty different audiences with their netflix shows. I mean before this thread was basically just universal praise for Daredevil. Now we have people that couldn't get into Daredevil saying JJ was great, and people that loved Daredevil being bored by JJ.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:55
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Why yes your honor, I saw this man getting tortured then maybe someone else did a thing he said. The goal was to prove mind control works, which gets the victims out of jail and has people believe them. Then, when mind control is proven the case against Killgrave would be separately built. Assuming he wasn't just black sited under terrorism legislation. The defense has far greater leeway for entering questionably legally derived evidence than the prosecution. Though Hogarth probably shouldn't have been there.
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Nov 27, 2015 21:58
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HIJK posted:Well, the short answer to this is that people have different tastes and preferences. For me personally, I found the characters of JJ engaging but the plotting and pacing was so egregious that I couldn't enjoy the show. Basically: Ohh, I was remiss not to mention the Ben Urich thing. That did garner some emotion out of me. But see, I didn't really feel much about Matt's internal struggle. Whether or not the Kingpin died seemed like a minor niggle. Kilgrave dying would have consquences, but so would him living, and it wasn't entirely predicated on some kind of internally constructed issue for Jessica. (except arguably it was to some posters, and that's doubly interesting.) But I suppose if you the pace didn't do it for you, that's fair enough. JJ definitely some very draggy parts and after a rush of outright gripping episodes, there were some real stinkers and contrived moments in the last few episodes. To Swillkitsch's point there, I couldn't really get into Karen's investigation subplot because it felt so unconnected and practically in the way of Daredevil inevitably punching Kingpin in the face. I felt like the one emotional throughline in Daredevil was just hoping Matt punched the next bad guy and that none of the nice side characters died. The fact that everything in JJ revolved around the titular character only added to the pace and the drive of it for me. I don't even think she was that great a character, but the scenes without her were definitely not as good as the scenes with. Certainly could've done with less of the repetitive "but MY DIVORCE" scenes.
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Nov 27, 2015 22:02
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I'm pretty sure Jessica, if she was even thinking about it, would be completely willing to be incarcerated for abducting and torturing Kilgrave if it got Hope acquitted. Am I the only one that loved every minute of the Hogarth's divorce sub plot?
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Nov 27, 2015 22:09
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I like that according to IMDB Iron Fist has exactly 1 character cast, Jeryn Hogarth. And she appears in episode 1.1.
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Nov 27, 2015 22:32
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I'm going to hold Marvel to that.
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Nov 27, 2015 22:43
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I'm stretching a little and this isn't a fully formed thought, but I thought Jess trying to take Kilgrave in instead of killing him was a metaphor for a rape survivor wanting to prove to the world that what happened to them was 'legitimate rape' and not just second thoughts or whatever phrase someone might use to cast doubt. Without Kilgrave or a way of proving something that is basically impossible to empirically prove, she can't really move past it until she has a group of people around that believe her intrinsically. Getting Hope out of jail gives Jess a way to externalize this desire and make it not all about her own scars, but in the end the important part isn't the proof it's the moving on. I'm not totally sure what killing him in the end corresponds to in this metaphor, though. Just coming to terms with the fact that it isn't her fault? But the very end is bittersweet in a 'what next' way that I don't think quite follows.
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Nov 27, 2015 22:43
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It's not a stretch at all. It was a literal rape allegory. Complete with shame, fear, violation, and the extreme difficulty of demonstrating that a crime was actually committed when consent or lack thereof exists only inside the minds of the participants.
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Nov 27, 2015 22:44
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The part that I'm having trouble connecting is what killing him corresponds to in a rape metaphor. There's no real equivalent so it breaks the allegory a little. I'm basically looking for a way to show why killing him wasn't a good option on the subtextual level, since a lot of people think that was the best way to go about it from the start. I'm also tiptoeing because this is not stuff I'm well equipped to theorize about.
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Nov 27, 2015 23:11
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In real life if a rape victim were to kill her rapist it removes the possibility of a trial and judgement that would absolve her in the eyes of the public/serve as self assurance that it wasn't her fault, possibly helping to remove the guilt that rape victims often carry. That's the extension to real world rape. The show is trying to portray the idea that if she were to kill Kilgrave, it would remove the possibility of that public absolution, which JJ believed would lead to internal absolution. e: It's an example of the 'justice versus vengeance' argument that superhero programs often have. trash person fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Nov 27, 2015 |
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Nov 27, 2015 23:22
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NmareBfly posted:The part that I'm having trouble connecting is what killing him corresponds to in a rape metaphor. There's no real equivalent so it breaks the allegory a little. One way to think about it is that closure is a myth. Not in the sense that you move on or that you never heal but in the sense that there is always that part of you that had this done to you. Murdering Killgrave doesn't give anyone closure really, it's just the only thing left to do. Jessica doesn't get any pleasure from killing him, her whole life has been made a mess because of him, and nothing changed (immediately). At the end of the day life goes on and Jessica (and her victims) have to move on with their life, which is represented by JJ going back to Alias Investigations, with a broken window and a new ally but the shocked disbelief out of all of it. Also, it could just be a dig at the superhero trope of never killing the bad guy and how it somehow makes super heroes less heroic if they are the direct cause of the villain's death. Batman SHOULD kill the Joker given the Joker's history, and JJ after Hope is taken out of the equation should kill Killgrave. The man is too dangerous to be left in the world and shows no signs he wants to change or remorse.
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Nov 27, 2015 23:28
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The Joker wouldn't be a problem if Gotham's prisons weren't hugely easy to escape from. Kilgrave? Not so much.
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Nov 27, 2015 23:36
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Just finished it. I'm echoing everyone else in saying that the plot felt a bit stretched at times. The worst was episode 11, which I believe the majority of which was just "Simpson going on a rage bender and trying to kill Jessica". I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but I really didn't like how much focus they gave to Tennant. Not as an antagonist mind you, but how we got more and more from his perspective as the series went on. I get that they were trying to portray him as that "Nice Guy" who feels like he can win back the girl with gifts and poo poo, but I think he was stronger as a mysterious antagonist. But I guess that's sort of the point, where he's not utterly sadistic, just kind of pathetic.
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Nov 27, 2015 23:37
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The Sharmat posted:Am I the only one that loved every minute of the Hogarth's divorce sub plot? Probably.
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Nov 27, 2015 23:39
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