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Lycus posted:Excluding temporary characters, DD has the worst supporting cast. Karen has unfortunately come into a pointless role as a "journalist". I really liked her DD s1 story.
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Aug 23, 2017 12:52
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marktheando posted:If the fights were of the same quality, Iron Fist would be better than Daredevil. No.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:02
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The Meachum family drama is a lot better than Foggy and Karen constantly whining about Matt.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:11
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marktheando posted:The Meachum family drama is a lot better than Foggy and Karen constantly whining about Matt. Iron Fist is good in almost every way except they hosed up the action and they hosed up generating compassion for Danny. He gets dealt a hand that is possibly more poo poo or at least as poo poo as the other heroes since he was brainwashed and abused for like 10 years. He doesn't even know who he is or what he should be doing. He's a trainwreck.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:15
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DD season 1 cast was good because they actually liked each other and were working together for one goal. DD's cast in season 2 and 2.5 sucks because they have tantrums like kids with dumb motives, whoever said it was insulting for Matt's cast to treat him like a drug addict was right. I'm glad Karen got nudged over to the Punisher because her dynamic with Frank was a lot more entertaining than it was with Matt. Anyway much like the rest of current Daredevil the supporting cast is underwritten and nonsensical.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:39
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Foggy is great. He's the talented, successful, idealistic lawyer who does good for the city through the law and legal means that Matt pretends to be. Also apparently another specialist in the burgeoning field of superhero law given that he got Luke Cage out of prison and won his case.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:45
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Ninja are inherently lame, though. I know you're struggling with this idea. Everyone loved the Nobu fight in DDs1. You'll get 'em next time slugger.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:52
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iron fist would've been great if iron fist hadn't been in it
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Aug 23, 2017 14:00
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Lycus posted:Excluding temporary characters, DD has the worst supporting cast. Ben Urich, Stick, and Foggy are great in addition to Fisk and Wesley.
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Aug 23, 2017 14:22
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I really liked the scene where Foggy sneaked Matt the Daredevil costume. I thought that that was the turning point, Foggy gets it, Daredevil does good. But then he was all like, "I got him the costume because I thought that would make him stop being Daredevil" And I was like, ugghhhhhh also that makes no sense
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Aug 23, 2017 14:24
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Foggy is a good character, but he needs good writing to not suck. Elektra, JJ, Stick, and Matt do a pretty good job regardless of what they're given. Karen worked well as a season one person to drive the plot, but she's literally not doing anything at this point. Hopefully they figure out what to do with her on Punisher.
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Aug 23, 2017 14:28
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Lycus posted:Excluding temporary characters, DD has the worst supporting cast. Karen is so incredibly bland, it's hard to imagine someone being less interesting. Not sure whether to blame the actress or the writers. I like Foggy, though, they did a good job of recreating the comic character. And Kingpin? Before watching DD, I would have laughed my nuts off if someone told me that Kingpin could be made into a three-dimensional character. But they did, and it worked.
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Aug 23, 2017 14:41
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I can understand Foggy/Karen's actions because it constantly endangers his life and the lives of those around him for MINIMAL impact. Matt hasn't really saved the world from anything yet, every single one of his problems from DD is still there, ruining his city and threatening to kill his friends, so it's not like he's really done anything useful except violence. The problem is that Foggy is too grounded in the real world to believably come around and Karen went from twisted past neatly wrapped up with a murdered boyfriend plot and oh yeah she loving KILLS WESLEY which we've had precisely zero backlash or development from. I hate Misty, I hate her attitude, I hate her hair, I hate her plot... (why did she and Luke have sex? Just so she can seem extra annoyed at him whenever he does anything?). I like that actress, she's gorgeous and charming, but I hate Misty, and I just don't understand Claire at all. Why is she here, why is she hormonally attracted to super-heroes, why does no one ever try and stop her from getting involved? Iron Fist's only supporting character seems to be his girlfriend who I guess was part of Hand? Which is weird because there are literally only 4 women in the Hand, and they are her, Alexandra, Electra and GAO. I am prepared to be wrong but I feel like every Hand agent we've seen is male and there aren't any female ninjas at least not specifically in Defenders. Final Gripe: for 5 immortal warlords, why do Gao and Alexandra act like mob bosses and Sowande is on the ground floor recruiting street level thugs on his own? I just don't understand the Hand's tactics or administration at all, they have armies and seemingly infinite resources and every scene is decided in a skirmish with like 15 ninjas. Foreclose on Luke Cage's city blocks, hostile takeover Danny's company, hire Jessica Jones for a fake case, bait Daredevil and hit him with a sonar gun... or just hope that these fresh 15 ninjas will accomplish what the previous 15 ninjas could not accomplish.
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Aug 23, 2017 14:59
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Yeah, Karen is almost a different character between DDs1 and DDs2. I legit don't remember if they ever did follow up on her dark past in DDs2 but if they did it was just some bullshit throwaway line. There was some kind of hint at the end of DDs1 that killing Wesley would come back to at least mentally haunt her but it was brushed under the rug so she could be shoehorned into becoming a journalist with the Not Jonah Jameson guy. I also really don't understand why Karen is against Matt being Daredevil. I mean yeah the lying and whatnot but Foggy got over it and he's a straight laced kind of guy. Karen has seen some poo poo so you'd think she'd be supportive or at least not so against Daredevil, especially since she's been saved directly by Daredevil. I also really didn't like the cops being in such an alignment of good in Defenders. In almost every other series besides Iron Fist (and there is no LEO character in Iron Fist, at least not that I remember) there is some strand of corruption among cops or law enforcement. Hell's Kitchen precinct in DDs1 is bought and paid for. Nuke is a rogue cop. Luke Cage practically has every cop besides Misty being corrupt. Yet in Defenders, they are unambiguously the Good Guys. I also still don't understand how The Hand is so influential. We keep being told they are, but we don't see them do anything. We're just told they are. Oh, we're told Trish's station shut down her earthquake talk. Why? In DDs1, we had Wesley going around to the other criminal syndicates and to businesses enforcing Fisk's rules and wishes. We don't see anyone working the streets on behalf of The Hand. It just seems like they stumbled onto influence and we're supposed to just take their word for it.
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Aug 23, 2017 15:52
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notthegoatseguy posted:Yeah, Karen is almost a different character between DDs1 and DDs2. I legit don't remember if they ever did follow up on her dark past in DDs2 but if they did it was just some bullshit throwaway line. There was some kind of hint at the end of DDs1 that killing Wesley would come back to at least mentally haunt her but it was brushed under the rug so she could be shoehorned into becoming a journalist with the Not Jonah Jameson guy. I also really don't understand why Karen is against Matt being Daredevil. I mean yeah the lying and whatnot but Foggy got over it and he's a straight laced kind of guy. Karen has seen some poo poo so you'd think she'd be supportive or at least not so against Daredevil, especially since she's been saved directly by Daredevil. I could've swore that she was, back when Matt was just running around in black with a toboggan over his head. Even after a bunch of buildings blew up and he was on video- either fighting cops or running around in handcuffs- painted as the mastermind behind it. I thought her issue was that Matt kept showing up with bruises or dropping off the grid for days at a time with no explanation. And even still when she asked him and Foggy straight up she couldn't get an answer out of either of them. quote:I also really didn't like the cops being in such an alignment of good in Defenders. In almost every other series besides Iron Fist (and there is no LEO character in Iron Fist, at least not that I remember) there is some strand of corruption among cops or law enforcement. Hell's Kitchen precinct in DDs1 is bought and paid for. Nuke is a rogue cop. Luke Cage practically has every cop besides Misty being corrupt. Yet in Defenders, they are unambiguously the Good Guys. It's after everyone's series. All of Fisk and Cottonmouth's moles are expunged now. Nuke's gone, Cage went to jail and served his times so I guess his warrant is null and no police are after him anymore. Especially since Diamondback, Mariah and Shades have flown the coop. All that's left are people who're somewhere on the level of either Mahoney or Misty.
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Aug 23, 2017 16:35
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It's bizarre that is show about a bulletproof black man in New York comes across with "yeah, you can trust the cops now". I would argue that there are bad cops because they didn't bring charges against people knocking down a loving skyscraper. Especially since all evidence that the hand had some weird dragon thing have been >>>crushed by a collapsed building<<<. Also, the start of daredevil season one is Karen almost being murdered by agents of Fisk; season 1 ends with Fisk in prison. You can't really say that Matt hasn't had an impact on her life.
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Aug 23, 2017 16:43
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JBP posted:Iron Fist is good in almost every way except they hosed up the action and they hosed up generating compassion for Danny. He gets dealt a hand that is possibly more poo poo or at least as poo poo as the other heroes since he was brainwashed and abused for like 10 years. He doesn't even know who he is or what he should be doing. He's a trainwreck. Alot of the main plot and villain plot lines sucked in IF too. The heart of Gao's operation is a crappy shack in the middle of nowhere barely guarded? What? There was a lot wrong with that series writing wise even if Danny had been tolerable.
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Aug 23, 2017 16:49
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Bust Rodd posted:Iron Fist's only supporting character seems to be his girlfriend who I guess was part of Hand? Which is weird because there are literally only 4 women in the Hand, and they are her, Alexandra, Electra and GAO. I am prepared to be wrong but I feel like every Hand agent we've seen is male and there aren't any female ninjas at least not specifically in Defenders. Every lady student Coleen had was part of the hand. the students who capture her to kill her were part of the hand.
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Aug 23, 2017 16:52
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Guy Goodbody posted:I really liked the scene where Foggy sneaked Matt the Daredevil costume. I thought that that was the turning point, Foggy gets it, Daredevil does good. That scene reads 100% like "oh we should save that development for DD s3 so it doesn't look like bullshit when Foggy's mad about it again. Even though now he could just mad that Matt is still fighting after nearly dying." Which is contrite bullshit either way
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Aug 23, 2017 17:01
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MrJacobs posted:Every lady student Coleen had was part of the hand. the students who capture her to kill her were part of the hand. And there's a bunch of lady Hand goons in the cave fight in the Defenders finale. Unsurprisingly they only fight Jessica.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:50
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I like Karen's character, although I agree that it has gotten a bit bland. A big part of the reason is that her siding with Foggy and pressuring Matt about how he should leave his superhero life behind makes zero sense. It was Matt's superheroing that saved her life in DD1 when Wesley sent that goon to her apartment to finish her off, so right then and there she should have become the biggest, most ardent supporter of masked vigilantes ever. Which she kind of did, when she got into an argument with Matt and argued that vigilantism is cool and good. At some point though she did a complete one-eighty, and her motivations for doing so still aren't clear to me. It would have made a lot more sense if she sided with Foggy on the surface to preserve her friendship with him, but helped Matt behind the scenes. For example she could have been the one who brought Matt his costume at the police station, with a wink-wink nudge-nudge. A Karen who is one hundred percent supportive of Matt/DD would be a lot more compelling character, and more consistent with what she has gone through. But it seems to me that sometimes writers get in this mindset of "OK, we need to create STRIFE and DRAMA within the team, how do we do that???" and then they write stupid poo poo that weighs the shows down.
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Aug 23, 2017 18:31
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McSpanky posted:Everyone loved the Nobu fight in DDs1. You'll get 'em next time slugger. Despite ninja being inherently lame, yes, that was a cool fight.  Gynovore posted:Karen is so incredibly bland, it's hard to imagine someone being less interesting. Not sure whether to blame the actress or the writers. I like Foggy, though, they did a good job of recreating the comic character. Probably blame the writers on that one. I remember her being at least somewhat interesting on True Blood. MrJacobs posted:Every lady student Coleen had was part of the hand. the students who capture her to kill her were part of the hand. Those are Bakuto's Hand. Maybe he has more progressive hiring practices than the other branches. Bust Rodd posted:*a lot of words* Defenders tread water for a lot of the supporting characters, especially Daredevil's since, apparently, the show runners don't apparently talk to each other. Misty's great, and there's nothing wrong with her hair. I'm glad we'll see more of her in Iron Fist. Luke has sex with everyone because he is a sexy chocolate man who women are powerless to resist, one of the top three defining characteristics of black males in media. It's very progressive, you see, and not blaxploitation at all. Who even knows about Claire? I like Rosario Dawson, but she seems to be... the Defender's Jarvis? A connecting thread, something like that. You could always be a rebel and actually watch Iron Fist. Finally, y'see, the Hand are ninja, and handle things the ninja way, which, as we all know, is lame. Like ninja.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:10
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notthegoatseguy posted:Karen has unfortunately come into a pointless role as a "journalist". I really liked her DD s1 story. I don't know if it is pointless. I think the idea is to get Matt a network of friends in useful places. Look how handy Foggy was when Matt was in the can.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:14
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Gynovore posted:Karen is so incredibly bland, it's hard to imagine someone being less interesting. Not sure whether to blame the actress or the writers. I like Foggy, though, they did a good job of recreating the comic character. I am voting writers on the Karen subject. She played a very interesting character in True Blood.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:17
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Defenders tread water for a lot of the supporting characters, especially Daredevil's since, apparently, the show runners don't apparently talk to each other. I am reasonably certain that is not true for Daredevil and the Defenders.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:19
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enraged_camel posted:I like Karen's character, although I agree that it has gotten a bit bland. I think a lot of that stemmed from defending Frank Castle and from what happened to Ben. Also, wtf at DD's supporting being weak? They're great. Urich, Owlsey, Foggy, Fisk, Frank, Claire, Potter, Gao, Page, Elektra, Stick...I don't see a weak link anywhere and the acting was one of the series' strongest suits I thought.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:40
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In DDS2, Matt's superheroics turns his personal life into a complete shambles, and torpedoes his legal career. Look at how the Defenders starts out, Matt is using his lawyering abilities to make the lives of the downtrodden better in ways he never could as Daredevil. Foggy and Karen treating DD as a drug addiction makes sense given all that.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:47
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howe_sam posted:In DDS2, Matt's superheroics turns his personal life into a complete shambles, and torpedoes his legal career. Look at how the Defenders starts out, Matt is using his lawyering abilities to make the lives of the downtrodden better in ways he never could as Daredevil. Foggy and Karen treating DD as a drug addiction makes sense given all that. But the entire point of the season is that no amount of lawyering could prevent the types and scale of problems that Daredevil can prevent, a point that Matt brings up repeatedly every time Karen and Foggy try their intervention. I mean sure he helped some disabled kid win $11 million by forcing the evil corporation settle the case, but that's frankly irrelevant when the entire city is going to be decimated by a global shadow organization. Foggy's attitude is understandable since he doesn't have any personal encounters with The Hand or Kingpin's group - for all he knows, Matt goes out at night and fights random thugs in dark alleys. Karen though has had much more exposure to the types of issues DD deals with, so she should be much more supportive.
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Aug 23, 2017 20:01
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howe_sam posted:In DDS2, Matt's superheroics turns his personal life into a complete shambles, and torpedoes his legal career. Look at how the Defenders starts out, Matt is using his lawyering abilities to make the lives of the downtrodden better in ways he never could as Daredevil. Foggy and Karen treating DD as a drug addiction makes sense given all that. it wasn't his superheroics so much as his relationship with Elektra and getting tangled up in her drama
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Aug 23, 2017 20:24
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To be fair, she did her fair share of loving up Matt's life.
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Aug 23, 2017 20:33
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Guy Goodbody posted:it wasn't his superheroics so much as his relationship with Elektra and getting tangled up in her drama The most baffling part of this is that Matt starts lying about it immediately. I could understand him getting frustrated and moving on if Foggy and Karen were dicks to him anyway but having Matt lie repeatedly about Elektra and the effect she's having, AND THEN having him get pissy with Foggy and Karen while refusing to tell them "hey my ex girlfriend is in town and is causing trouble I'm sorry for flaking," is just stupid and weird and I can't recall a decent reason ever being given for it. Matt just lies about something important the scriptwriters couldn't think of something better, and this is after season 1 where Matt and Foggy had a whole fight about why lying is bad!!!!! god I hate season 2.
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Aug 23, 2017 20:57
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Matt lies about Elektra because she brought the worst out in him and her presence leads him both conflicted and stressed out and also she's inextricably linked to all of the immortal ninja bullshit. Acknowledging her in any capacity is going to risk opening the door to a whole bunch of things he doesn't want either of them knowing about.
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Aug 23, 2017 21:01
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This is just a casual reminder that literally everything Elektra has done to ruin Matt's life, both before and during the events of s2, were at the direct behest of Stick. Just, sure Matt's a stubborn dumbass at the best of times, but I feel like Stick being the exact specific reason for everything going wrong in both Matt's and Elektra's lives gets kinda overshadowed sometimes.
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Aug 23, 2017 21:13
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He was totally right about killing Danny, though.
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Aug 23, 2017 21:16
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That one's just a gimme.
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Aug 23, 2017 21:23
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BrianWilly posted:This is just a casual reminder that literally everything Elektra has done to ruin Matt's life, both before and during the events of s2, were at the direct behest of Stick. Yeah that's true. I never liked that either though, Elektra being a puppet for someone else seems straight up out of character for me when IIRC her initial story in the comics is about how she forged her own path away from Matt and that she doesn't deviate from it until she's literally at death's door. I think she got majorly nerfed for the show and any cool moments that might have come out are overshadowed by that, and the fact that the scriptwriters didn't seem to know what to do with her. (So they stuck her in Matt's apartment to have circular arguments with Stick which was major snooze television.)
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Aug 23, 2017 21:29
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I wish Stick could have taught Elektra interesting dialog. Also Trish Tilby is the only supporting character in Defenders who's actions make any sense given the situations. If I was The Devil of Hell's Kitchen (just start calling him Daredevil already please), I would have freaked the gently caress out on Foggy and Karen the moment they were like "Oh you're on that hero poo poo again" and started screaming in their faces about how I'm trying to save their lives and also the lives of millions of people in New York. CubanMissile fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 21:32
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Didn't Matt also lie because he was half way into Karen at that point also? Been a while since I've seen it.
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Aug 23, 2017 22:23
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I wanted stick to teach luke some moves 
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Aug 23, 2017 22:53
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To nobody's surprise...zoux posted:Whoa Daredevil Season 3 is adapting Born Again aka the one where Kingpin gaslights Matt into insanity. Also the one where Karen Page becomes a heroin-addicted prostitute, but they'll probably leave that out.
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Aug 23, 2017 23:05
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