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So, I thought this show was awesome, but seriously? "Oh cool, Ben Urich, and he's black in the show. The marvel universe has always been pretty white, and Ben has parts in all sorts of stories, so this is a great way to try and fix that!" *Ben Urich killed off before Daredevil is even Daredevil* .... 
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Apr 21, 2015 15:19
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zoux posted:Luke Cage bro. The Sharmat posted:He had a full character arc and the story kind of demanded it. Not killing him off just because he's black would be dumb. Dang you guys got defensive in the same "doesn't really affect what I'm saying at all" way real quick. There being an upcoming show and movie where the hero is black does not really have any impact on how  it is that in this show they changed an important and ongoing character from the comics to be black, then made him the one of the main good guys to be killed off before the completion of the first season, so that the 3 remaining (white) characters could suddenly realize just how urgent their mission really was and take steps.I also was not in any way saying they should have kept him alive because he's black, I have no idea where you got that one from. I'm saying that since in the comics he's white and does not die but instead goes on to be an important part of a bunch of good stories and important plot stuff for Daredevil and also for Alias/Jessica Jones, that making the change to have him be black, then changing it further from the comics so he dies is worth a or a or an  because of how much american media does the whole "black character is first to die/single token black character is killed off" thing.
surc fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 15:59
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The Sharmat posted:Nah you're saying they shouldn't have made him black and then killed him, which is not that different. Nah I'm saying they should not have killed the character Ben Urich off regardless of race, and I think the fact they killed him off in such a retarded* way after making the decision to change his race, in a society where our media is full of black characters being the characters who are killed off quickly, was worth rolling my eyes at, not that "if a black character dies in your show your racist!" or whatever. It also seems like they're prepping Karen to fill his role, and if you don't see the in replacing the old grizzled black man with the young pretty blonde woman, I honestly don't know what to tell you.But I like your style kid, keep putting words in other people's mouths. *Why was it retarded? let me restate the part of my post you did not quote in clearer ways:The kingpin killing him while he has a history of being one of the few reporters who doesn't drag family members through the mud in his stories (See: that conversation with the mobster in the scene we're introduced to Urich in) which the kingpin is probably aware of considering how much else he has on Urich is loving retarded and hurts both characters. Why would the kingpin expect him to do anything that would compromise his mom when he has a history of doing exactly the opposite? Killing him off also means that they are messing with a bunch of potential plot-arcs from the comic that Ben Urich plays important roles in (Alias/Jessica Jones as well). They can write around it, but it's just loving retarded shock-value/raising the stakes, which is kind of a classic way for the "kill off the token black character" to go.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:38
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The Sharmat posted:Dang, you got defensive when everyone didn't instantly pat you on the back for spotting the trope real quick. Not especially? That quote is me snarkily pointing out that they were saying I said a thing which I didn't say, I'm not sure how else you're reading it. XboxPants posted:It did seem like DeKnight's comments basically translated to "Marvel wanted to kill him off 100% because it would be shocking to comic fans" which is like, not exactly the most artistically valid reason. DeKnight & the writers kinda made it work in the show; it made sense that Fisk's decision to kill him was irrational and emotionally-driven, that's the core of who he is. But it felt so telegraphed to me that it didn't have any impact and overall just felt forced. Which, big surprise, it was. bobkatt013 posted:Yeah but Fisk was never shown to be rational when it comes to people he thinks can hurt his family/girlfriend. He does not care that Ben is not writing about his family, he visited her when he worked so hard to hide her. They were also told that he was going to die, so it did not matter what race he was he was going to die no matter what. They killed him to show that characters you think are safe are not. Who knows what they plan to do with Karen, but they did give one of his defining attributes to Foggy. Remember Foggy did not figure it out until around issue 350, Ben knew in the 100s. For me it didn't fit with his other irrational outbursts because there had been a consistency even with his outbursts outside of this where they needed to have basically actually taken an action which effected him negatively, and frankly it betrays a level of dishonesty with himself that Fisk doesn't show at any other point, because the reason Fisk gives in the scene is that Ben isn't keeping his mother out of it, but he has every reason based on what we've been told and shown in the show so far, to believe that Ben would actually go out of his way to ensure Fisk's mother didn't get hit in the article. It was pretty much one of like, 2 or 3 points in the show where I felt like they hadn't done everything perfectly, and it seems like such a key moment, and I don't even get why would you even do that from a future story perspective. We already get that the kingpin is a killer capable of terrible poo poo, I wasn't shocked just mildly annoyed. All the stuff with the funeral seemed kind of weirdly tacked on too. Also I can't even read all the Jessica Jones talk, I am so excited for it I'm gonna try and go in as blind as possible on it.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:01
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effectual posted:I liked the realism of the show. The less magic ninja poo poo the better, because that crap is totally not tonally consistent with this version of daredevil. Great season, hope we can get more. Pretty sure based on the Gao/Nobu/Stick/That-dude-from-the-hand-stick-reported-to stuff that it is going to take a very sharp turn in that direction at some point.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:13
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AbsolutelySane posted:Did everyone miss that Fisk thought Ben had either killed, or had something to do with Wesley's death? They don't come right out and say it, but Fisk finds the phone, calls his mother on it and kind of has an epiphany. His mother only remembers Ben, not Karen, so it's not a stretch that he put that together that way. It would have been ample reason for Fisk to lose his mind as Wesley was the only friend he had, Vanessa not withstanding. He was going to kill Ben for that, regardless. Ben dies protecting Karen, for all intents and purposes. It's the perfect cap to his character arc, who gives a poo poo about future series? I also completely disagree about the funeral scene, it was well done. They do come out and say the opposite of that, when Fisk asks him and accepts his shock and says"Yeah, you're a man of principal, I didn't think it was you" or something equivalent to that in the scene in Ben's house. Skeesix posted:Well it does effect him negatively because one way or another he's got to move his mom out or else she's going to be contacted by other journalists. I'm sure he would prefer to have her just upstate than all the way over in Italy or wherever. I guess, but I didn't think Ben was likely to go "oh yeah btw Fisk's mom lives here everybody go say hi" to the world. I feel like "You had a conversation with my mom and she thought you were nice" just doesn't line up with the rest of his outbursts.  It could have worked as part of Fisk's descent into more full-on evil/control slipping, but it wasn't really done with the same "here's some throw-away line or something to tie it in" as all the other things indicating that, so I didn't take it as part of that either. surc fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 23:43
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ShineDog posted:They made a huge loving mistake. Arrogant and stupid? Sure. Not sociopathic villains. (The obvious and genuine grief afterwords also puts paid to them being sociopaths) Foggy was the one drinking himself stupid in a bar, but Karen, who was the one who was all "no we CAN'T LET HER LEAVE!" was not. Arrogant and Stupid instead of sociopathic, maybe, but Karen shares the aspect of Fisk where you put her in an emotional situation, and gently caress everybody else she's gonna shoot you in the chest or you're going to stay in your apartment the way she thinks is right, and drat the consequences because somebody has to take action for what Karen Paige feels is the right thing to do.
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Apr 22, 2015 14:08
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zoux posted:What disease did she have anyway? Lupus Alzheimer's? Alien-fight illness/illegal chemical poo poo is what I thought was implied or that Ben said in the one conversation where him and Karen are talking about his first story or whatever, she was the one the story was about. But yeah, it's pretty hammy.
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Apr 22, 2015 14:21
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Your avatar made me realize that the real question now becomes: How long do we have to wait after these shows are wildly successful to get the Hawkeye show we all wish we deserved?
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Apr 24, 2015 16:16
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Edit: ^^^ I think he's just "mysterious head of ninjas" at the moment, I didn't recognize him from anywhere (but sometimes I miss stuff).bobkatt013 posted:When the last issue is released. Is this actually a thing? Don't play with my emotions. 
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Apr 24, 2015 16:24
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McNerd posted:Just being a ninja clan isn't organized crime, it's more like being a paramilitary kook but with even sillier uniforms. Man, a few rotten ninjas ruin it for the rest!  (I would assume due to the number of ninja attacks which presumably happen on a daily basis in the Marvel U, ninja clans are probably considered gangs from the police perspective, although maybe not in the movie/tv universe yet).
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Apr 24, 2015 18:12
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enraged_camel posted:Of that list, Claire and Ben are the most uninteresting. They're basically typical archetypes: caregiver/nurse and overly nosy journalist, respectively. They aren't bad characters or anything. There just isn't anything deep about either of them, unlike with Matt. All that stuff they did in this show where they.... took time to specifically go into the character's motivations and gave them human flaws and strengths is generally considered "depth".
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Apr 28, 2015 01:44
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Gaz-L posted:Couldn't Phillipe be being courted for Bullseye? I don't think he'd be very good at it: 
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Apr 30, 2015 01:41
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Blazing Ownager posted:Honestly people keep picking on Daredevil's normal rogue's gallery, but I think he's got some decent characters in there. Punisher is one of the rogues people in the thread were saying was good, it's just that he's only got a few really good ones, and there's only so many times you can do the same story ("Oh No! Matt can't let the punisher kill this mob guy because X/Y/Z --OH Man, Matt might actually have to let the punisher kill this mob guy because X/Y/Z!"). A lot of the good tension in DD stories comes from people in Matt Murdock's life intersecting with Daredevil and how it affects them/puts them in danger instead of rogues. Harry posted:I thought they handled things really poorly with Fisk. I really thought he was going to get away at the end of the season and become the actual Kingpin. I don't think he ever truly won at any point, and they'd kind of do some random ham-fisted approaches to show that he was in charge, and then almost the very next scene would show he wasn't.  But... Fisk's whole arc was totally about him becoming the Kingpin. That's what that whole speech about the Samaritan was in the armored car. This is "Year One" for both Daredevil and Kingpin, where we get introduced to what led them down the path they're on as whatever super-identity they have. You may have noticed that Matt didn't actually become Daredevil until the end of the season, while he sorted out his motivations. Which is also exactly what Fisk was doing. Both of them are struggling with who they are and what they want, and they both come to effectively opposing conclusions. Also, he wouldn't be much of a kingpin if he couldn't run poo poo from inside.
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Apr 30, 2015 13:46
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Snak posted:I don't mean him. Matt beats the poo poo out of a lot of people for information. Can he really be sure they all deserve it? And the show has done a pretty good job of making sure that yes, they do, but that's a storytelling convenience so that Matt gets to be the hero. He also ALWAYS hits them, without even checking if they will cooperate before he does. Actually I thought a really strong part of the show was with the junkie in one of the later episodes, I forget which, who is clearly this pathetic addict who isn't in control of his actions and will do anything for his fix- a sad wreck of a person instead of some violent thug, how Matt just gives no fucks because he considers the end worth the means, and as is brought up a couple times early on in the show, he also just likes the satisfaction of beating the poo poo out of somebody when he's frustrated. It drives home that pretty much the only thing seperating fisk and matt is that matt lives in constant guilt, the root of it is his conviction that he got his father killed (and arguably, if he was really as conscious of how he's manipulating his dad as it seems like in the flashbacks, he is responsible), which makes him feel like he has to do all these other things, which leads to *further* guilt, because he knows it's not the right thing to do (lying to foggy, beating up junkies, numerous other things I can't remember at the moment but know happened, etc). Interestingly enough, Fisk DEFINITELY kills his father, but feels no guilt. So much cool character stuff in this show. surc fucked around with this message at 04:56 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 04:49
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I always kind of read it as him "thinking about the kind of man he wants to be" (I think that's how his dad phrases it), and coming to a decision. Sure, he has all these traumatic memories that wake him up in the middle of the night, but I figured from the way they set it up, that the trauma was his abusive drunken father, and that's why a substitute for that wall is so soothing to him. It reminds him of his 'purpose' of destroying this monstrous thing he sees, and the man he wants to be (Or, the man he created as a kid that he thought he should be. I also like that whole thing with the reflection, and how Vanessa helps him finally become a man instead of a boy's image of a man and/or get past that trauma that's been haunting him so long.)
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May 1, 2015 05:46
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Snak posted:Yeah, and if you do the math, they were at least on the third floor when they dropped the fire extinguisher on him. We can see that there's at least one floor above them as well, and they later take that same guy up to the roof and throw him off. So they dropped a fire extinguisher on his head from three stories and threw him off the roof of AT LEAST a four story building. But it's okay because Daredevil doesn't kill people. Yeah, this show suffers from TV-foam-weapon syndrome, but they did better than a lot of shows do, they do have claire there as a "what the gently caress is wrong with you" voice (I think she specifically calls out the fact that yeah he didn't kill a dude, but basically only technically and guy's in a coma or whatever), although she justifies what he's doing more the longer she's around him. I think that's pretty nifty. Matt's a charismatic guy, and he knows how to manipulate people into siding with him, and that's totally what's happening. I would not be surprised if they're laying groundwork for some serious tortured-soul/you've-really-truly-crossed-the-line type poo poo in maybe season 3/4/5 when it comes back to bite him.
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May 4, 2015 16:08
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Stugazi posted:Early episodes DD was super agile bad rear end with pre cognitive fighting and still took a beating. It was good action and believable edge of your seat stuff. Last couple episodes he got hit by a fat rear end kingpin, an old lady and roughed up by street punks. That was disappointing/lame. I hope they keep him on the edge of super human vs just a dude in long johns who can do spin kicks given enough room. Those were both supervillians though, same rules apply as to superheroes. Otherwise the argument is that Fisk is fat so he shouldn't be able to fight a blind guy. Fisk is just less obviously super-powered than the dude who is blind and can still see. Also, see mystical extra-dimensional ninjas for Madam Gao slapping him.
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May 7, 2015 18:09
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achillesforever6 posted:Just wait till Hercules gets introduced to the MCU right? Right? Kevin Sorbo's getting a little old, I dunno if he could pull it off.
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May 15, 2015 14:38
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Aphrodite posted:Exotic isn't even the word you use for Greek. A lot of gross dudes in the 90s would like a word with you then I guess.
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May 28, 2015 03:14
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