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Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



It's a spiritual sequel in that it builds on ideas and themes from Umineko but it doesn't really directly spoil anything (at least, not yet).

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cropoval
Feb 16, 2020



John Lee posted:

Okay, kinda weird question: I've twice started Umineko with buddies, and both times they kind of waffled and half-assed and eventually stalled, despite really liking it. I've gotten about halfway through Chapter 7 years ago, but now one of them is coming back and is gonna start up again. Which is cool, but only partially relevant to the actual question: Is there anything in Ciconia that would spoil Umineko in any way? Vague discussion of characters, that sort of thing? Feel free to spoiler your answer.

The WTC fandom debates about this a good bit, but if each entry couldn't be read stand-alone, then a large chunk of the current WTC fandom wouldn't have read Umineko before Higurashi (or only Umineko).

I'd second No Wave in that there's something introduced early in Ciconia that is sort of following something that happens late in Umineko, and I know people who think it "spoils" Umineko in the sense that it would make Umineko easier to figure out, but I personally don't think it's enough to ruin anything (also, if you were halfway through EP7, you may already know it anyway). I do think it may make Higurashi a bit too easy to figure out, if only because new versions of characters in Higurashi show up in Ciconia in such a way that you'd probably be automatically suspicious of them if you read Higurashi after.

But all of this is pretty much splitting hairs. Every WTC entry is fundamentally its own thing and you're not explicitly spoiling anything.

kirbysuperstar
Nov 11, 2012





Did anyone end up trying Death Come True?

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009


Any opinion on Fatal Twelve?

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.


Ibram Gaunt posted:

Any opinion on Fatal Twelve?

There was some discussion about it a page or two ago. It's a generally well-executed death game story that feels a lot less mean-spirited and more optimistic than average for the genre, with a strong yuri subplot. One or two people complained about characters acting irrationally, but I generally found their actions understandable within the context of their characterization as long as you accept the story's premise that at heart, no matter what kind of person they seem like on the surface, most people are capable of sacrificing their lives for someone else; it's basically a story about what people are willing to live or die for.

LibrarianCroaker
Mar 30, 2010


Thuryl posted:

Off the top of my head, there's Ne no Kami, Sound of Drop, and The Shadows of Pygmalion (in more or less descending order of yuri intensity), although I'm pretty sure I've recommended all of those to you already anyway. They're all deeply discounted in the current Steam sale, though, so now's a good time to pick any of them up.

Part 3 of Ne no Kami when....

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.


LibrarianCroaker posted:

Part 3 of Ne no Kami when....

Rather than a direct sequel, it's more likely that the dev will do a new story in the same setting with Len and co. as background characters, similar to how the Sacrament Sheep leads showed up as cameos in Ne no Kami.

Squiddycat
Jan 14, 2010

If you're afraid of dying, how can you live!?



Lipstick Apathy

kirbysuperstar posted:

Did anyone end up trying Death Come True?

I...didn't even realize this released. Definitely going to check it out and report back with Words. Thanks for letting me know!

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

Muv Luv Expo stream was alright. Main points were they announced that photonmelodies will be out by the end of July, The Day After is getting an English release, and they had some shots from TDA04.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


kirbysuperstar posted:

Did anyone end up trying Death Come True?

It was cool but extremely short even for a $20 game. Like it felt more like a very well produced proof of concept rather than any kind of complete release.

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA



Late Umineko ep 5 spoilers: I see why they call this game "without love" because at this point I want to throw my hands up and storm away from the board because Bern is being a giant jerk. "here's some red truth for no reason except to gently caress you over [laugh.wav]"

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




Finally bought Raging Loop. Be prepared for lots of live play reactions! I know I like reading those kinds of things with games Iíve played.

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA



Umineko ep 5: congratulations game I'm as baffled as I was on ep 1 despite having lots more information

god I'm so relieved I didn't drop this due to burnout. It's an absolutely outstanding novel.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




Raging Loop, very early thoughts: Huh. This shrine maiden(?) girl and the cranky konbini clerk have the same distinctive red eyes. Ah, well, I'm sure it's not that important. And Chiemi doesn't actually explain what she was doing out near the river so late at night, even after bringing it up herself. Also can't possibly be important.

Edit: And the village tone thing is the same as the jingle when Haruaki walked into the convenience store. Absolutely a coincidence.

Edit 2: Haruaki, you have prophetic deja vu, can you stop being so loving dubious and hard-headed about this?

Edit 3: Yeah, Chiemi has to be the Spider. It'd explain why Haruaki survived despite not doing the preparations, and why she's so ready to believe everything.

Edit 4: Just got to Thursday. If I had to take a guess, as someone enjoying a work of fiction, it's Takumi and Kiyo pulling a gambit. Haru is the real snake, and investigated Takumi, to figure out if he was a lying wolf or just doing some kind of ploy. What threw her into a panic is having a dream that he's a wolf. Now she's panicked and in denial and Chiemi is an extremely convenient target to take her grief out on. Though from a pure "as a game of Werewolf" perspective, I do agree that hanging the old man was the right idea, even if it didn't turn out well. If he was town, he'd be useless for discussion, no more than a warm body. But if he was a Wolf, he'd be much worse, and his behavior wouldn't change at all. I still think that Chiemi is the Spider, too.

As for where the story will go from here, I think that the early forks I couldn't open yet are going to be extremely important, and this lockless route is full of nothing but slightly-productive dead ends. Using the terms from 999, I don't expect to find anything more useful than the Sub Ending without going back to near the start, and making a choice that gets Haruaki added to the Feast early.

Edit 5: Well, there goes that theory! This game really is killing off all the most likeable characters besides the main two, isn't it?

Edit 6: I'm so proud of Chiemi! That was a drat good case on Yasunaga. Also lol that Kaori tried killing everyone with wolfsbane. That's a bit on the nose, isn't it?

Edit 7: Got the first real ending. Time to Groundhog Day this poo poo! (Also, the reason trying to leave ends in death is obviously because the soda contains food from the cursed village.)

Edit 8: Haruaki, are you changing how your name is spelled every time you tell it?

Edit 9: Oh no, is there going to be a love triangle with Chiemi and Rikako? Is she secretly a yandere?

Edit 10: I'm starting to get the impression that certain things about the past are actually different, and that who gets the marks will be different, too.

PMush Perfect fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jul 7, 2020

PhysicsFrenzy
May 30, 2011

cats can have little a sunglasses, as a treat

PMush Perfect posted:

Raging Loop, very early thoughts: Huh. This shrine maiden(?) girl and the cranky konbini clerk have the same distinctive red eyes. Ah, well, I'm sure it's not that important. And Chiemi doesn't actually explain what she was doing out near the river so late at night, even after bringing it up herself. Also can't possibly be important.


I'm also playing through Raging Loop right now, though I'm a few routes ahead of you. It's so good so far. My favorite part of route two was (hint corner spoilers) Sheep calling me out on picking obviously bad ends just to see them

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




PhysicsFrenzy posted:

My favorite part of route two was (hint corner spoilers) Sheep calling me out on picking obviously bad ends just to see them
I keep doing that, too.

Act/Section 5 spoilers: Oh, poo poo, I'm the snake! Oh shiiit, three wolves! Man, getting mauled because you need to take a piss is a hell of a way to go. Lots more branches this time, I think this is where the game will really start expanding. I love that Haruaki keeps pulling random new bullshit out of his Batman utility belt of "stuff I bought at the world's best-stocked convenience store.'

food court bailiff
Oct 2, 2007

fast n furious foodstuff



Soiled Meat

Higurashi ch8 starts so goddamn bleak. I mean, I knew pretty much what I was getting into at this point, but so far it has been like forty minutes of institutional child abuse and I am absolutely not in the headspace for that right now.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




Welp, just got the second main ending.

I saw that rug pull coming from a mile away, but drat it still hurt. I'm guessing it was the Badger, who came late with nare as a fix.

Edit: I'm gonna be a wolf this time, aren't I? It's the only narratively interesting role left for a video game, and it absolutely raises the stakes and turns everything on its head, while also being a great way to see things from the other side.

Edit 2: Somebody pick up that phone, because I loving called it.

PMush Perfect fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jul 7, 2020

Hiveminded
Aug 26, 2014


Finished Raging Loop. It was cool and refreshing to have a high-functioning psychopath as a protagonist. His moral and character flaws and frequent shittiness as a person ended up pretty endearing

was really impressed with it as a visual novel overall. Is there anything similar out there besides the really popular stuff like Danganronpa, 999, Steins;Gate, etc, preferably with a similar aesthetic/style? i noticed root double being brought up in this thread and took a look at the steam page for it, but uh really can't take it seriously because of the bug-eyed character art and waifu-collector vibe.

Squiddycat
Jan 14, 2010

If you're afraid of dying, how can you live!?



Lipstick Apathy

Root Double has a perfectly servicable set of mysteries, even if I don't think it ever gets to the heights of its contemporaries.

It's long as gently caress, think it took me 80 hours to clear.

I'd say give it a go.

e: also the gimmick of RD is that you have the ability to assign how much you agree or disagree / trust any of the characters on a wheel at points, and it can be confusing to figure out how to manage it at times. I didn't much like the system.

Squiddycat fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jul 8, 2020

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



The most obvious RL comparisons to me are Higurashi (a mystery/horror story involving the mythology of an isolated village) and the Zero Escape games (more sci-fi and with puzzle gameplay, but they have a similar mystery/death game setup).

PhysicsFrenzy
May 30, 2011

cats can have little a sunglasses, as a treat

PhysicsFrenzy posted:

Just started Raging Loop. Already want to punch the protag in the face, but I'm hoping he'll develop as it goes.

Not done with the ending yet, but the (post Darkness, so don't click this PMush) reveal that the clerk is Mitsuji completely recontextualizes the intro sequence. I thought he was just being a dick to someone for not being cheery during a graveyard shift lmao. It also recontextualizes all the hint corners where she gleefully demands Haruaki die gruesome deaths

Nep-Nep
May 15, 2004

Shedding those useless arms and legs to go EVEN FASTER!



Hiveminded posted:

Finished Raging Loop. It was cool and refreshing to have a high-functioning psychopath as a protagonist. His moral and character flaws and frequent shittiness as a person ended up pretty endearing

I binged the whole game over the weekend and (full game spoilers) one of the scenes I really liked for his characterization was when he suggested killing one of mocchi/chiemi and cutting off the limbs of the other. In terms of just maximizing the number of survivors, that is a sensible move to make, but that's also a really horrible thing to suggest and when everyone reacts accordingly, he straight up can't understand why they seem so shocked. And it doesn't even occur to him to suggest something less awful like just injuring them a bit or asking the doctor if there's a way to knock them out overnight or something, no he just jumps straight to the most brutal option.

Honestly for me it was the things Fusaishi doesn't do that illustrate how awful he can be. As the wolf he learns that the wolves have their own lives threatened if they choose not to kill. I was anticipating to see him at least once try to get the spider to out themselves and force a stalemate by having the wolves and the spider openly collude to let there never be a kill, but the idea doesn't seem to ever occur to him. There were also ways for him to trick the journalists out of town as established by the final ending but back when he's still trying to resolve the loop through the feast it sure doesn't occur to him to make that happen.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




Aaaand just finished Darkness.

orenronen
Nov 7, 2008



Since there's Raging Loop discussion going on, I'm just going to advertise the current season of the Visual Novel Book Club podcast (where several former-SA people discuss visual novels), which is all about this game. Available at all the usual podcast indexes as well as on Youtube.

One thing that is far from critical but I think most western players don't realize is that the game, which originally came out on iOS/Android and was ported to other devices after gaining a minor cult following, was a followup to another Kemco smartphone VN called D.M.L.C ("Death Match Love Comedy") by the same author (Shuhei Nobuki aka Amphibian). The two games are advertised as "sister works" and share a universe and lore despite taking very different approaches to the death game genre. In fact, (post endgame RL spoilers) Meiko is a secret tie-in character for D.M.L.C, where she plays a much more significant role. Despite being the earlier game, D.M.L.C just got its first remake/port for consoles in Japan a couple of weeks ago so maybe there's hope for a western release.

PhysicsFrenzy
May 30, 2011

cats can have little a sunglasses, as a treat

orenronen posted:

Since there's Raging Loop discussion going on, I'm just going to advertise the current season of the Visual Novel Book Club podcast (where several former-SA people discuss visual novels), which is all about this game. Available at all the usual podcast indexes as well as on Youtube.

One thing that is far from critical but I think most western players don't realize is that the game, which originally came out on iOS/Android and was ported to other devices after gaining a minor cult following, was a followup to another Kemco smartphone VN called D.M.L.C ("Death Match Love Comedy") by the same author (Shuhei Nobuki aka Amphibian). The two games are advertised as "sister works" and share a universe and lore despite taking very different approaches to the death game genre. In fact, (post endgame RL spoilers) Meiko is a secret tie-in character for D.M.L.C, where she plays a much more significant role. Despite being the earlier game, D.M.L.C just got its first remake/port for consoles in Japan a couple of weeks ago so maybe there's hope for a western release.

Ah, I got the sense from some of the dialogue that the game was something like a standalone sequel or a spiritual successor! Glad to know I wasn't imagining it. Hope we get DMLC.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



I was vaguely aware of that. I guess that would mean D.M.L.C. is set like 10 years after Raging Loop?

NRVNQSR
Mar 1, 2009


Hiveminded posted:

was really impressed with it as a visual novel overall. Is there anything similar out there besides the really popular stuff like Danganronpa, 999, Steins;Gate, etc, preferably with a similar aesthetic/style? i noticed root double being brought up in this thread and took a look at the steam page for it, but uh really can't take it seriously because of the bug-eyed character art and waifu-collector vibe.

I can see where you're coming from, but the waifu-collector vibe doesn't really manifest in the game itself, and while some of the character designs are a bit ott you get used to them pretty quickly. I personally found Raging Loop's designs a lot harder to get past.

There are similar VNs of comparable quality to Root Double like Ever17 or Remember11, but I think most people would agree that RD is the most modern and accessible one of them and the easiest to recommend these days.

orenronen
Nov 7, 2008



Irony Be My Shield posted:

I was vaguely aware of that. I guess that would mean D.M.L.C. is set like 10 years after Raging Loop?

I don't think the game ever mentions it, but Raging Loop is set in 2003. Source: the official material/artbook I bought immediately after finishing the game.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




Well,after playing for literally over 24 hours straight, I got to Myth. Iím gonna get some sleep now. Thoughts later.

klapman
Aug 27, 2012

this char is good


Playing through Root Double right now, the main fault with it is the absolutely insane number of flashbacks in the middle portion. And I don't mean flashbacks to scenes from a distant past, I mean flashbacks to scenes you've already seen, because the game has no faith in you remembering much of anything that happens. It's difficult to even point out particular instances because some of these scenes Watase saving Yuuri from the falling debris have been seen literally five times now. That's not counting the replay of the game I had to do to avoid the Normal ending of A either.

So many of the game's twists are delivered by these flashbacks, and at certain points it feels like you're spending more time being shown earlier scenes than seeing new ones. Like the twists are good but they really aren't that hard to follow unless you're playing the game over the course of many months. I wish there was a toggle or something you could pick in the options, cause I'm sure there are plenty of people that do play games over long stretches of time like that, but it's seriously hampering my enjoyment of the game at this point. It also doesn't help that Natsuhiko is a lot less of a psycho than Haruaki from Raging Loop, so he's often trailing at least one step behind me in figuring out all these twists. So that means, when it does finally get to new things, it's effectively rehashing the particulars of stuff I already figured out.

I like the characters and the story's really good when it does more than doggy paddle in the shallow end, but drat. I really hope the flashbacks stop soon.

e: just ran into a really good, but kind of spoilery example. i've made it about as vague as possible for anyone with reservations

So at one point, the MC goes into another character's memories in order to find out the truth about something. Now in this memory-delving flashback, the character whose mind he dove into dives into the mind of the MC's child self, at which point we see a scene we've already seen, from the perspective we've already seen, and the character goes "wow so this is what he saw back then, huh". This one's very short and does actually go somewhere interesting, but it does similar things frequently enough that the moment I saw it happen again I immediately started complaining to some friends lol.

klapman fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Jul 8, 2020

klapman
Aug 27, 2012

this char is good


Okay, Root Double can treat me like a loving idiot for another hour or so before I dump it entirely. There was just this decently complex explanation of BC particles about half an hour ago. Yuuri then asks Natsuhiko if he knows about BC particles. Natsuhiko flashes back to the classroom discussion from way back like 30 hours ago that barely goes into the very basics of BC particles, a discussion so basic that I remember the kids in the class wondering why she was going so basic with it. Then they talk a bit more. Then she starts explaining WX particles flashing back to the complex explanation that was just shown. The game is completely loving incapable of expounding upon even the simplest thing without first rehashing every single aspect leading up to its current topic. It is a level of rigor that I am completely unwilling to find reasonable for a game based on fake science.

It feels like getting an actual long and boring lesson in scientific concepts that refuses to make even the slightest leap in logic, building every single aspect upon itself in the most methodical way possible. Except that at the end of this, I'm not going to actually understand anything about the natural world. I'm not going to have gained anything. It's just a super boring explanation of something that doesn't even exist and will never have even the slightest impact on my life, because all of the concepts it refuses to skip any steps in explaining are entirely fictional. It doesn't matter if I have a full and complete understanding of it, at least not to the extent that it needs to constantly hammer home every single step every single time. It is unbelievably frustrating as a reader.

e: Like, visual novels and regular books are very different mediums, but imagine if the scene that I described in the first paragraph was in a book instead of a VN. If they stepped out of the scene you were actually reading to deliver a completely copy pasted excerpt from earlier in the book. I didn't even mention the entire 5 page long explanation of some other crap that you've had to read twice already at this point, because that was irrelevant to my specific annoyance from earlier, but that's in the same conversation as this one! I jokingly said yesterday that I was going to give it 10 more flashbacks before I quit, but if I'd actually done that I would have quit half an hour into today's session.

I'm actually going to give it 100 more flashbacks. Literally 100, in the final route of the game, starting from a couple of hours into it. I'm going to start counting, and if I hit 100, I'm turning the game off and deleting it from my hard drive. I've rarely been tilted by a loving VN of all things before but this is insane.

e2: oh, it actually did stop

klapman fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jul 8, 2020

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



9 Persons 9 Hours 99 Flashbacks

NRVNQSR
Mar 1, 2009


Yeah, the ridiculous flashback density in that part is definitely my biggest problem with Root Double. And believe it or not this is the improved version - the first edition of the game had something like twice as many! But fortunately it does end, and after that the pacing gets good again.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

I'm getting, ahem, flashbacks to my Baldr Sky experience. Which I was very unlikely to ever actually quit but boy were the Reminisce sections tedious.

Nep-Nep
May 15, 2004

Shedding those useless arms and legs to go EVEN FASTER!



edit: wrong thread sorry

edit 2: if you think about it quoting someone's post to respond to it is kind of like doing a flashback!

Nep-Nep fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jul 8, 2020

klapman
Aug 27, 2012

this char is good


NRVNQSR posted:

Yeah, the ridiculous flashback density in that part is definitely my biggest problem with Root Double. And believe it or not this is the improved version - the first edition of the game had something like twice as many! But fortunately it does end, and after that the pacing gets good again.

yeah lol, I went through the trouble of downloading a counter app and I went up to 3 in like 2 hours of gameplay after posting that

it's still a huge problem in the game imo, to the point where I would actually understand a fanpatch that removes the majority of flashbacks, and the fact that it used to be worse is loving insane lmfao

MegaZeroX
Dec 11, 2013

"I'm Jack Frost, ho! Nice to meet ya, hee ho!"


klapman posted:

yeah lol, I went through the trouble of downloading a counter app and I went up to 3 in like 2 hours of gameplay after posting that

it's still a huge problem in the game imo, to the point where I would actually understand a fanpatch that removes the majority of flashbacks, and the fact that it used to be worse is loving insane lmfao

The VNs Takumi Nakazawa has directed always have issues with lack of editing down stories. Ever 17, I/O, and Root Double all have this issue (not that I/O would be good even if it was properly edited). The only VN directed by him that I don't remember this being an issue was Remember 11

klapman
Aug 27, 2012

this char is good


lmfao, I/O... I knew I was gonna make it through Root Double cause I made it through I/O, but suddenly I remember having the same extremely aggressive reaction to I/O's plot lmfao. The A route of that was kind of confusing but interesting enough as an opener, the B route was actually pretty charming and fun, and then C and D were very confusing. And then there was D', C', B', and A'. That game was way too long and way too obscure about every single thing it was trying to say about whatever it was about.

Remember11 owned though. The atmosphere in that one is unbelievably strong. Genuine shame about the ending, but I think I'll still replay it one day regardless.

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Nep-Nep
May 15, 2004

Shedding those useless arms and legs to go EVEN FASTER!



Most vns I read even after a long time I can remember at least the general outline of what the story was about.

I remember what the general premise I/O had and some of the ideas it was trying to touch upon but I couldn't begin to pull a memory out of my head as to what the resolution of the story was. Pretty unique for me in that sense. I liked Root Double a lot better though it definitely has its flaws.

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