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Thanatosian posted:I've read a few things, but what is the JW stance on voting and lobbying? Like, participating in political processes? I've heard they're pretty down on it.
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Mar 19, 2015 20:42
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Benne posted:--Parents have and will refuse blood for children even if it means their death. This is a hard-loving-line issue. Thankfully the medical community is legally allowed to overrule this in life and death situations Wikipedia posted:In some countries, including Canada and the UK, a parent or guardian's decision can be legally overruled by medical staff. In this case, medical staff may act without consent, by obtaining a court order in a non-emergency situation, or without such an order in an emergency
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Mar 19, 2015 21:57
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Benne posted:The 144,000 are preordained members and includes people like John The Baptist. So it's basically like a sports Hall of Fame -- people get inducted if they're old enough. There aren't many of The Anointed left alive and they pretty much shut the door on new entrants. What happens when those "anointed" all die off? Or, should I say, what will happen, realistically? Benne posted:More serious answer: The JWs, as flawed as their doctrine and standards, are human beings too. We hated working the same routes as much as you hated seeing the same people every week. Sometimes that can't be helped, since the more influential pioneers and elders hang on to the same territories and the rest of us were forced to work the same loving addresses month after month. How do JW's feel about Mormons? I know they do similar stuff, sending teenagers out on "missions" to dress up and knock on doors, and I met one once that said there's almost a blood feud between them and JW's.
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Mar 20, 2015 03:13
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Loomer posted:Also the wording used in the bible is a little ambiguous on exactly what the crucifixion took place on, so claiming that they're stupid for thinking it was a stake rather than a cross is a bit silly. From my understanding, JWs don't think it was a crucifixion at all. That's where I have a hang-up: What sources claim otherwise? I've never heard that he was executed in any other way.
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Mar 20, 2015 03:55
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Captain Bravo posted:What happens when those "anointed" all die off? Or, should I say, what will happen, realistically? Since there is no centralized record keeping apparatus, the same thing will happen that always happens in Calvinist sects: there are always more saved. It's rare, so not everybody gets to have that special status but there will always be people with that status. It's some hardcore "divine right of kings" poo poo that was super progressive back in the 1600s but by now is super played out.
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Mar 20, 2015 08:21
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Wikipedia tells me that the governing body has walked back a number of doctrinal positions over the years, including one that pretty firmly said that armageddon would occur within the lifetime of those anointed who were alive in 1914. What I take from that is: neither repeatedly pushed back dates for armageddon or ever-increasing numbers of anointed are going to be an actual problem for the health of the Witnesses as a whole anytime soon.
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Mar 20, 2015 09:50
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turbomoose posted:Thankfully the medical community is legally allowed to overrule this in life and death situations I've read that can be really awful for the transfusion receiver as they can be ostracized from the community.
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Mar 20, 2015 10:00
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The funniest thing about the 144,000 is that in revelations it's 12 000 people (men?) from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, which is a very literal clan bloodline thing encompassing roughly zero gentiles 
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Mar 20, 2015 11:34
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AGirlWonder posted:From my understanding, JWs don't think it was a crucifixion at all. That's where I have a hang-up: What sources claim otherwise? I've never heard that he was executed in any other way. They believe he was crucified on a stake rather than a cross, which is in keeping with one of the potential meanings of the Greek used in the New Testament. Stauros can mean both stake and cross, and it's a matter of some academic debate among theologians that Christ might have had the single stake. It's hardly a heretical or particularly odd viewpoint - it's a mere matter of translation and semantics. JWs don't say 'there was no crucifixion, period' they say, 'they used a stake, not a cross. It's in the bible.' which is true with some translations and interpretations. There are enough significant theological differences that 'stake vs cross' is pretty unimportant and a bit silly to choose as the sign the JWs are weird.
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Mar 20, 2015 12:16
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EvanSchenck posted:Part of my problem was I used the same techniques I had previously used to turn down Mormons, but the Mormons hosed away off while the JWs kept coming back. Years ago I was feeding my snakes one evening and the doorbell rang. I figured it was Fedex or UPS, so throw open the door and...nope, two ladies with little kids in wagons, and the kid in front, maybe 5 years old, started asking if I knew about Jesus. And then fell silent when he got a good look at me. It was feeding night, like I said, so I had three ball pythons wrapped around me; not huge snakes, four feet maybe but very thick. Wearing stained camo pants and a sports bra and pretty dirty from cleaning cages. The women took one look at me, said not a loving word, just grabbed the kid and about ran down the driveway and away. Never figured out if they were Mormons or JWs. I do know I've gotten some print ads from JWs and sometimes the art is pretty good for being about a whore in gold necklaces being attacked by a scorpion lion. Whoever draws those could work in graphic novels.
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Mar 20, 2015 13:21
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I am an anesthesiologist and have dealt with a number of JW's in regards to blood transfusions and whats allowed vs. what isn't. First of all, there are two different general reasons for blood transfusion, trauma situations and not. An emergent trauma transfusion is when you get shot/stabbed/car crash etc. and end up in an OR to fix internal bleeding. In this case, you get blood no matter what because its an emergency situation, and hypoxemia secondary to blood loss removes your ability to grant consent. This has been challenged in court, but the end result has been that in emergency situations, giving blood is ok. A lot of JW's accept this and realize its a risk of you know, living. As far as other situations, some JW's are hard core about their beliefs, while some are not. Also, there is a diffference between giving whole blood and blood products. A result of this is that anytime we have a JW, or someone who doesn't want blood products for some reason or another, is that we have a rather large checklist of all the blood products and products derived from human blood. You need to initial each thing that you refuse or accept to receive. Things like packed red blood cells, plasma, cryoprecipitate, clotting factors, albumin, platelets, etc. might be accepted in some cases and not others. What is also interesting is that many JW's do not believe in autodonation. If you are having an elective surgery, most JW's seem to not believe that they can donate their own blood for transfusion in the future. Many however do seem to believe in what is called a cellsaver. Its a machine that is used in the OR, where when blood is suctioned to goes into a machine that filters the red blood cells out and injects them automatically back into the patient with some saline. The idea behind this is that the "circuit" of blood isn't broken, where as in autotransfusion it is. Basically, its a huge headache for doctors because every JW is different. Some are fine with everything but packed RBC's, and some refuse everything all together, but most have various reasons for refusing some and not refusing others. I wish I could find a pattern, but there really isn't. I think it relates to their education level and understanding of what the product is rather than religious conviction, but I could be wrong. Ethically, its not a huge deal when it comes to adults, just a pain in the rear end in terms of paperwork and negotiation. Children however represent a whole other set of problems...
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Mar 20, 2015 13:58
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I was best friends with a JW when I was in school and her family were loving nuts. I remember they allowed her to come to mine for a girly sleepover and her older adult sister was parked at the end of the street and kept walking up and checking on my house throughout the night. It was pretty much constant surveillance. For some reason her mum showed up at midnight and demanded we gave her daughter back as she was unhappy with the 'situation'. She woke our whole house up and dragged Hannah away in her nightie. Nothing had happened, I guess she just changed her mind about letting her daughter sleepover? A little after that she was forbidden to talk to me and since our seats at school were side by side it was really loving weird as she gave me these looks that said 'I'm so sorry' but never said a word. She also said that her mum said I had a bad aura or something, but to be honest that really doesn't sound like a thing a JW would say... would it?
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Mar 20, 2015 16:07
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Loomer posted:They believe he was crucified on a stake rather than a cross, which is in keeping with one of the potential meanings of the Greek used in the New Testament. Stauros can mean both stake and cross, and it's a matter of some academic debate among theologians that Christ might have had the single stake. It's hardly a heretical or particularly odd viewpoint - it's a mere matter of translation and semantics. JWs don't say 'there was no crucifixion, period' they say, 'they used a stake, not a cross. It's in the bible.' which is true with some translations and interpretations. There are enough significant theological differences that 'stake vs cross' is pretty unimportant and a bit silly to choose as the sign the JWs are weird. Thanks for the clarification. That's honestly not weird at all, and people more generally accepted as Christians have varying beliefs on the structure of the cross, so what's the big deal?
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Mar 21, 2015 02:49
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Apropos of nothing, I've always respected Witnesses. My best friend in High School was a Witness and, though he often preached the gospel, he was always willing to have a conversation/discussion regarding it. Whenever a Witness comes to my door, I like to take some time to discuss my beliefs with them and ask them hard questions about theirs. I always preface this by saying that I will never be seen in a Kingdom Hall and will never go to meeting. I still enjoy the talk. They always stop coming after a few visits. It makes me sad... :-(
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Mar 21, 2015 03:13
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As we see with other ultra-conservative and sheltered religions (thinking of the Amish), were there many members that hit 18 and went totally loving wild?
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Mar 21, 2015 03:23
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What do JWs think of Jews? When I was about fifteen, I was walking around town and an old guy offered me a copy of the Watchtower. I said "No thanks, I'm Jewish." His eyes lit up. "Jewish!!" he exclaimed. Then - without any further discussion - he started quoting the Torah at me, with book and verse references, to try to prove to me that Jesus was the foretold Messiah. His grasp of the Torah was way better than mine. I didn't debate with him because I was totally outclassed and also a teenager, so I just walked away. I've heard that some proselytising denominations consider Jews untouchable and avoid trying to convert them, because they think we're already saved, just a different sort of saved; others consider us to be more valuable as converts than other religions, like one Jew is worth two Catholics in conversion currency or something; and still others think that we're actually worse than other religions and will suffer more for it in the afterlife, because we've been given the word about Jesus and chosen to ignore it. Do JWs as a whole have any particular opinion? Also, how do JWs celebrate Passover? I did an internship working for a lady who was raised in the Witnesses, but none of her family were in the community anymore and I didn't feel comfortable asking her much about it. One thing she did say was that they celebrate Passover rather than Easter, but when I described a Jewish Passover she said it was nothing like what she'd experienced.
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Mar 21, 2015 08:53
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What is the JW take on evolution?
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Mar 21, 2015 11:31
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errol _flynn posted:What is the JW take on evolution? pretty much young earth creationism from what I recall from a witness guy I had classes with.
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Mar 21, 2015 17:38
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Avshalom posted:Also, how do JWs celebrate Passover? I did an internship working for a lady who was raised in the Witnesses, but none of her family were in the community anymore and I didn't feel comfortable asking her much about it. One thing she did say was that they celebrate Passover rather than Easter, but when I described a Jewish Passover she said it was nothing like what she'd experienced.
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Mar 21, 2015 22:11
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What? No charoset?! Oy gevalt!
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Mar 22, 2015 06:42
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Captain Bravo posted:Wait, what? Former Jehovah's Witness here too. When I was 14 years old, I expressed interest in Civil War Reenactments. I instantly got pulled to the side by the Elders and they had a long conversation with me about the evils of murder, even if faked or done with history in mind. Which ended with threats of disfellowshipping if I continued.
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Mar 23, 2015 04:35
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precto posted:Former Jehovah's Witness here too. So what do parents do if their (minor) child has been disfellowshipped and they're not supposed to interact with them?
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Mar 23, 2015 05:08
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The Lone Badger posted:So what do parents do if their (minor) child has been disfellowshipped and they're not supposed to interact with them? Exceptions are made for immediate family situations, and I believe work situations. A friend of mine had some disfellowshipped family members, and that's how she said it works. I think there were some...not really rules, but guidelines for things like not discussing religious things with them, but I don't remember exactly.
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Mar 23, 2015 06:55
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Is there much abuse of Defellowshipping (not that the whole process doesn't seem inherently abusive? "Hey, how about you fix my roof for me. And by the way, your son/brother/cousin is walking on thin ice at the moment"
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Mar 23, 2015 10:56
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The Lone Badger posted:So what do parents do if their (minor) child has been disfellowshipped and they're not supposed to interact with them? It depends on the family though. Some are family above all and some are god above all.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:51
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So to keep the nice JW's from continually coming to my house, could I just say I was disfellowshiped? Or would they see right through that and double their efforts?
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Mar 23, 2015 20:40
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As I recall they would say okay and end it there. But you would probably get a visit from some Elders a few weekends later if the person cared enough to tell them. Shortly after I stopped going I was approached by a kid at a gas station to give his presentation of the Watchtower. I stopped him with a smile and said I was already a witness, went to a congregation further down the highway, etc. We smiled and parted ways and I laughed as I drove away, suddenly remembering I had a fully grown, thick beard and how confused he was. Also, there sure seems to be a lot of former witnesses on the forums. I know this isn't the first time I've seen them pop up in threads and it's not all the same posters (unless their names have changed). 
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Mar 23, 2015 21:16
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I was actually on an even lower tier as a teenager: Unbaptized Publisher. It's means filling out those monthly papers on hours of preaching and number of magazines, but without the commitment to God or whatever. Usually this tier is reserved for children super committed but too young to really get baptized. I stopped going to meetings and was never disfellowshipped and thusly, can still talk to people both disfellowshipped and still in the JW tribe  I refused to get baptized or even give anyone in my family hope that I would. So being officially an Unbaptized Publisher was like a consolation prize for all involved.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:23
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Sanzio037 posted:So to keep the nice JW's from continually coming to my house, could I just say I was disfellowshiped? Or would they see right through that and double their efforts? Like was mentioned earlier, there is a form of Do-Not Call List. I'm not sure how it works these days but when I was growing up the "territories" were literal maps that were handed out and on the back there would be a list of people who said to not come back that was always respected. I grew up in a JW family. There is no one who can fake sleep better than me.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:16
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Cowslips Warren posted:a whore in gold necklaces being attacked by a scorpion lion It's called a manticore. 
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Mar 24, 2015 02:42
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GreyjoyBastard posted:It's called a manticore. You would know, you fat bald spice merchant. I'm guessing the JWs are not down with the gays?
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Mar 24, 2015 02:58
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Cowslips Warren posted:I'm guessing the JWs are not down with the gays? I would guess no based on Prince's rants a while ago.
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Mar 24, 2015 03:30
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Cowslips Warren posted:You would know, you fat bald spice merchant. It's seen officially as another type of imperfection that would be healed in paradise. You could theoretically be a gay JW, just a celebate one who dealt with the normal pressures of being a single celebate heterosexual. And everybody talking poo poo about you. But you could still live forever. e: Not to say that it was at all accepted by anyone at all ever at any point. Psychobabble fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 05:27
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Drighton posted:Shortly after I stopped going I was approached by a kid at a gas station to give his presentation of the Watchtower. I stopped him with a smile and said I was already a witness, went to a congregation further down the highway, etc. We smiled and parted ways and I laughed as I drove away, suddenly remembering I had a fully grown, thick beard and how confused he was. Are JWs not allowed to have beards?
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Mar 24, 2015 10:43
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Boiled Water posted:Are JWs not allowed to have beards? Nope. No one I ever talked to in three congregations could come up with supporting scripture. Usually it was just associated with cleanliness - the same reason you should be dressed in Sunday best at the Kingdom Halls. Best I can figure this was adopted around the time long hair and beardiness was commonly associated with hippies and drug use. One of the last elder visits I had he pulled a scripture out of his rear end though. Never heard or read it before in all the years I was active. But then that's all they need to start Bible-hopping and put a string of scriptures together to support some nonsense.
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Mar 24, 2015 12:09
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So what would happen if your door to door group ran into the Mormons door to door group. Would it be a preach off? Would it be a sharks and jets style brawl in my front lawn? Seriously though this had been a great thread to read.
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Mar 24, 2015 15:25
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Speaking of which, how do JWs take it when other groups attempt to proselytise to them?
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Mar 24, 2015 16:06
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Around here, none of the Kingdom Halls have windows- is there a reason for that?
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Mar 24, 2015 18:45
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Lincoln`s Wax posted:Around here, none of the Kingdom Halls have windows- is there a reason for that? I know that in Florida they're built to serve as emergency shelters in case of hurricanes so there are no windows but in other areas they do have windows.
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Mar 24, 2015 19:20
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Psychobabble posted:I know that in Florida they're built to serve as emergency shelters in case of hurricanes so there are no windows but in other areas they do have windows. The KH along I-20 in north Louisiana has no windows, either.
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Mar 24, 2015 19:30
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