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VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

I've wanted to play mafia so badly for the past 3 days. fill fill fill!

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VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

fiery_valkyrie posted:

Hi Viva! Nice to see you again
It's lovely to see you too!

This game's gonna be great. Just 1 more mafioso needed.....

Bowmore, I wanna be Little Edie!

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

TheRam posted:

i have the weirdest boner right now

Best way to kill a thread.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

Poison Mushroom posted:

What is the best thing that goes on vanilla ice cream?

Trick Question! ~~Nothing~~ You put the vanilla ice cream ON things. The best of which is some sort of mixed berry pie. KB and wall monitor answered incorrectly. I will be monitoring them accordingly.


re: Pmush

King Burgundy posted:

I just don't get it. I can't fathom the motivation for that post at all.
Pmuch.
Is it acceptable for me to just not care about this person's awkward D1 posts or do I really need to analyze this?

Max posted:

It's actually worked pretty well for me.
Please tell me a time voting someone who self-claimed scum worked out for you?


re: Opop
Diqnol, your case assumes Opop is too dumb to read the thread/relies on meta about your relationship. I need a better reason to vote him atm.

Preemptively answering diqnol's follow-up question to me: I am not scumbros w/ Opop.


TheRam posted:

~~~MAX CONFIRMED TOWN AND OPOP CONFIRMED SCUM DUE TO ISSUES IN THE BOWMORE DELIVERY SYSTEM~~~
Why is max confirmed town? Pls answer after you've completed your very important work/solved the boner situation.


CapitalistPig posted:

scum bros

##vote opop
I see you have decided to be lazy or act like you are being lazy this game. This saddens me. qq


Max posted:

Also, JFK was long since dead by the time this would take place.
Absolutely loving that Max thought someone wouldn't know JFK was dead in 94.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

GUISSEPPE PIZZAPIE posted:

I don't think it's contingent on any meta. Read the interaction. Do you not see that he reacted nervously/faux playfully and stuck to that as I pressed him? I think it was a knee jerk reaction by him.

It's def contingent on your meta:

GUISSEPPE PIZZAPIE posted:

Exactly. I caught him off balance and he tried to play it off as being silly. A true town Opop would have told me to shut up or something or said Ugh etc

"nervously/faux playfully" is your read. It's a possible interpretation and you're entitled to it. But when I read it I saw typical early game jokeyness.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

TheRam posted:

max is town because he said the same thing I was thinking basically about not getting a pm
scum got pms fo sho, the way max dropped it seemed legit to me

You mean this?

Max posted:

I only noticed the game started when I went back to the bookmarks. I am clearly town because of this fact.

I don't think he deserves to be confirmed town for that post, since bowmore said itt vt weren't getting them.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

Max posted:

Do people really not policy lynch players that claim scum (even jokingly?) That used to be like, an unwritten rule.

Never heard of it, never been in such a situation where a self-claim was taken seriously. I def feel I've seen many people jokingly imply they were scum, esp. early on.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

Max posted:

Imagine me saying that in a stupid jokey voice. No one should think I'm town because of that post.
Right, that was my read. At least three of us are on the same page.

Max posted:

I'm talking '07, 08. I had a game where I jokingly called someone scum, and they just went "haha, yup, you got me." Rest of town voted him and he ended up being scum. It was that guy that had the ugly mario avatar for a while.

Anyway, I distinctly remember this being a thing for a while, but I guess it's faded away.
haha, little mac? That's great.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

Max posted:

Was it little mac? I don't know, I just know it was that realistic fat mario cartoon.

no, nm. Apparently lm's avatar isn't even mario.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

I never finished my thesis. That is my shameful secret. I played mafia to forget..... max what have you done :(

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

EXAKT Science posted:

VivaNova, it's nice to meet you! I'm EXAKT and I'm new! I noticed that you don't want to vote either of the vote leaders yet. Do you have any scumreads yet?

Likewise! I'm a returning player. I have no scumreads worth mentioning yet. When I do you will totally know because I will post them ITT!

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

EXAKT Science posted:

Maybe, but it happens in response to the first bout of real scumhunting, and feels like it's trying to extend jokephase unduly.

I feel this interpretation only works if you think Hal is scum with either Opop or Diqnol and you think he's trying to get attention off one of them. Yes/no?

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

diqnol = pizzacrotch man btw

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

TheRam posted:

you guys really should entertain the possibility that there are other people to vote before we kill opop, then we must proceed to kill opop sadly,

I'm thinking maybe kill opp tomorrow in time to get another game day friday with a deadline mon cus of weekend... yeh that sounds great

I'm sorry I will be at a CONFERENCE tomorrow night.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken


I would never accuse you of being clothed.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

King Burgundy posted:

And anyone else around? I'm all caught up now, let's chat.

I just read the wiki on Magic Shell. It contained this sentence:
Contrary to what many people believe, paraffin wax is not an ingredient of Magic Shell.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

King Burgundy posted:

What do you think of Vivanova?

Fantastic! A++#1 mafia player.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

fiery_valkyrie posted:

She went and got married and left her mafia friends behind. I think she is very rude for this.
It wasn't getting married! It was going back to school!


King Burgundy posted:

What do you think of Rarity? :)
A++ Fantastic Avatar.



KB, try to put your finger on what it is about me you're not liking.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

fiery_valkyrie posted:

So are you saying you did get a PM?

King Burgundy posted:

hahahha, scum slip #2 I guess.

Do we live in a world where such magnificence is possible?

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

So many posts.

Rarity posted:

By the way, Viva I would really like to hear what you think of wall monitor!
I think he is super nervous that you are casing him!

I see what others saw in the backtracking on FV thing. To answer him last night, it's not changing your mind that suspicious, obvi, it's that he did it after something bland/typical was pointed out to him/he met resistance. Don't have a problem with the initial vote.

Not super interested in debating how newbie/not newbie scum play. Works both ways, like nervousness. 8 games is not newbie.

wall monitor posted:

This, however, might be enough... it took him a couple hours before he followed up by claiming it was a joke. I don't like this much. It'd be a lot more believable if he said 'I was confirming that I am still going to play in this game' which is both more believable to me than claiming joke and also what I would do if I was scum caught out in a lie.
This is funny cause this isn't what's bad about Opop.

Transitioning, what is bad about Opop is what rarity said. Scumslip seems like stretching. It's dropping a vote on WM and peacing that's lame and maybe scummy.

Continuing on Opop which is more interesting to me than WM:

Murmur Twin posted:

I'm genuinely confused by the fact that people are talking about anything besides Opop at the moment.

Murmur Twin posted:

You're telling me with a straight face that you think that [these]
were intentional pre-planned jokes and not scum slips / him running away?
You are arguing that Opop made a scum slip, then came back a day later and made the same exact scumslip! Which is gloriously ridiculous if true, but is it really likely?? I'm want it to be, but lean no.

ps.

fiery_valkyrie posted:

Are you sure? I swear you and KP were talking about getting married in one game.
Yeah, I totes got married last May, but I played games after that. Remember Civ2? It was going back to school in the fall/being burned out after survivor that caused me to take a leave.


What's FOS? something of suspicion?

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

EXAKT Science posted:

I'm only really seeing the latter.

It's really more neither.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

OK, 6ish hours till a Fri night deadline. Opop's -2, WM's 2 behind. Only other vote is a weird one on FV.

Considering the charges on these two:

Opop
1. Early ~scumslip~
2. Thoughtless vote on WM
3. Saying he's gonna be mia/only posting to complain about votes on him

WM:
1. Questionable initial vote of FV
2. Subsequent unvote/revote
3. Anxiety/self consciousness
4. Odd criticism of Opop

Please comment/add/detract from these summaries.

My thoughts:
O1: Dumb. Anyone voting Opop solely for this reason is likewise dumb. Thinking of MT, DHD and TheRam here since Hal and Diq at least backed their thoughts up. Maybe PM.
O2-O3: Legit reasons to vote someone, though also compatible with disinterest/resignation after taking early heat.

W1: Sometimes early D1 votes just aren't great. :shrug:
W2: It wasn't as if new/groundbreaking information was revealed and he then voted someone else. 'It was a joke/not a joke' is the most common boring argument on D1. The current vote on FV likewise MAKES NO SENSE.
W3: For me this is shown most when he responds to Rarity criticizing someone else and excessive apologizing. Nerves are NOT exclusively a scum trait, as some people claim, but in this case I do read it as an over-reaction. Nerves are also a newbie trait as some have argued, but he's totes not a newbie. Note I have never played with WM before.
W4: This is the biggest thing to me. It looks like he's trying to say 'Look I have an original thought about why Opop (obvious alternative lynch) might be bad!' But idgi, said so and he didn't explain. I think he's just writing it so he can come back later and vote Opop and look legit.

So.
Opop is leading us nowhere. WM is leading us in circles.
Opop leaves me disappointed and WM leaves me baffled.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

I did not find him very funny.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken


Max is busy drinking an inferior beverage to beer. I can try to answer you since he's agreeing with something I posted but I feel I explained it pretty well.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

EXAKT Science posted:

It's interesting that you're jumping to defend him.
So you don't actually need any clarification on this point, you're just trying to set dumb traps for people trying to actually play the game. Cool.

EXAKT Science posted:

Who do you think is scum with Opop then?
DHD's not going to be dumb enough to answer that..... o wait.

King Burgundy posted:

Have the other non voters (Viva/Cpig/Exakt) said who they want to vote for?
Yes, I said Opop or WM in a post a few hours ago.

DuckHuntDog posted:

Yes? Being baffling isn't really an alignment tell in my experience, but the passive defense you have put on Opop is if he flips scum.
You want to make sure people are playing logically, explaining themselves, ect. That's why it's not good that he's baffling. And that's generally how you hunt scum. Or I guess you could continue trying to chain lynch people D1 and accusing people who point out things that are wrong with WM as defending Opop.

Max posted:

Why are you so confident? This makes no sense to me.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

King Burgundy posted:

Which doesn't read to me as "These are my targets for today", but that could be my bad I guess.

I figured it was implied by my casing them and the fact they were the only two candidates for a while, but I couldv'e been clearer I guess.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

VivaNova posted:

I figured it was implied by my casing them and the fact they were the only two candidates for a while, but I couldv'e been clearer I guess.

Sorry, didn't notice it was over.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

VivaNova posted:

Do we live in a world where such magnificence is possible?

Apparently!!

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

RIP diqnol! Even though you read me wrong, you will be missed~

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

EXAKT Science posted:

That's probably because I dislike pretty much everything she's posted :p

Likewise!

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

So lot's of stuff here and apparently I need to budget my time between defense and casing, prepare for some posts.

Here's some quick responses to page 14:

EXAKT Science posted:

it seems off to me that Viva was casting shade on both Opop and WM when she could have probably gotten away with just casing Opop.
Elaborate on this thought please.


fiery_valkyrie posted:

I also feel like Exact was trying very hard to make people look bad towards the deadline,

The way Exact posts makes me think he is certain about Opop's alignment, especially when he is asking people about who they think is scum with Opop.
100% agree! I felt like I was going crazy that no one was calling him on this at the time!


EXAKT Science posted:

I feel even better about f_v now, because that feels like a real case to me. It's incorrect, but who gives a poo poo?
Well. If somewhere incorrectly casing someone I know to be town, I'd prolly give a small poo poo or two idk. :eyeroll:


Rarity posted:

The one game I've played with Viva (Civ 2) she was the best town player so I wanted to see her opinion on my case.
:3

King Burgundy posted:

Another interesting thing is that since everyone started this game Vanilla, scum night kills aren't based on hunting for power roles or anything. It will be based purely on taking people who are obstacles to their shaping of the narrative. Here on SA, people always ignore the NK motivation because of WIFOM, but that gives scum a free pass to kill whoever they want without having to think about it. Before he died Diqnol was suspecting Viva, Rarity and TheRam of being scum. Scum would want to keep him around if he was wrong, to help sell their cases, but would want him dead if he was right.
This is a fascinating post. First, people on SA totally don't ignore NK motivation in my experience. I certainly never do.

Secondly, I disagree strongly with your thought process and conclusions here.

For one thing, you're forgetting a major reason why people are NKed in every game- they look too town to lynch. Look at the response to Diqnol's passing in the thread if you need to know why he was killed. He even seemed to know he was the likely target for the simple reason that after opop flipped scum, he looked like he'd never be lynched.

Additionally, you seem to be forgetting the main gimmick of the game. Diqnol looked so town he was also a likely target for people to will to. I think this is really obviously the reason he was killed.

Saying it was because of who he suspected is silly since he had already said who he suspected and knew he'd be writing something about them to be posted on his death. 'Silencing' doesn't seem like it could be the motivation. I feel pretty strongly about this conclusion and think it's an important point to understand.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

VivaNova posted:

Well. If SOMEONE was incorrectly casing someone I know to be town, I'd prolly give a small poo poo or two idk. :eyeroll:
typo.


Poison Mushroom posted:

You're getting all caught up in theorycrafting! Trying to puzzle out the mechanics of a game totally makes sense in a role-heavy one like a CYOR. But getting all into that in a vanilla game? Boo.
This was only a vanilla game D1, and possibly not even then. I'm a big fan of mechanics and have won games off it so I dislike when people get down on them. The issue with that post is that I believe KB came to the wrong conclusion.


TheRam posted:

I'm kind of intentionally ignoring this thread for a few more hours before I do a full read, but I really like your posting Murmur Twin.
I LOVE the chart, but I find it strange you would especially like that post, since rarity and max both said yesterday they didn't think anything of opop's initial posting, and exact told DHD that the scumslip was the weakest part of the opop case, so the posts she's pointing out line up with their stories from yesterday, not much interesting there.


Murmur Twin posted:

Obviously there was a level of joking around to this, but I think a town Rarity should have tried to get Opop to make a solid case. Instead she solicits a vote on WM, which he obliges her on before vanishing.
I noticed this, and it's one of my two issues with Rarity, the other being the opop vote for obvi reasons. I can't fault Rarity for her case on WM, but I can fault her for this. She shouldn't have been so convinced of a generic D1 case that she was willing to just accept a crappy vote from another suspicious character.

With regards to your other points, my eyes glazed over during the newbie scum tendencies chat, I need to go back and read it in full.


King Burgundy posted:

BTW, I just want to put this out there, since it doesn't affect anything, and it might lend us some insights later.

I was given a gift from the departed.

I am now an unconfirmed mason with TheRam.

I was assuming this would have come from Diqnol on his death. But I can't be sure of that, and I don't know if Opop would have been able to do something similar.
Were you given the option to choose your partner?

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

King Burgundy posted:

You and Rarity seem pretty convinced of that first point and that hasn't been my experience at all. I even tried to bring it up in my first game of mafia ever, battleship, and was poo poo'd and told that real mafia players don't examine the night kill motivations because it is too wifom, by windshipper I believe. So I feel like you and Rarity are posting from another planet when you say that. It does not happen in games I'm in. As far as I'm concerned you two could not be more wrong, or are lying. :shrug: In fact, I brought it up in THIS game and Rarity did the same thing. Tried to shift off the argument as WIFOM. Don't try to tell me it is ridiculous when it is happening in the same game we are in.
Not everyone here is homogenous, people have different philosophies and strategies. WIFOM seems to periodically be a hot topic of conversation in the discussion thread. I remember a wonderful unsolicited megapost from Ecco on the topic in a game we played last January :)
The reason it's sometimes poo pooed is because it often inevitably degrades into 'welp scum knew we'd be analyzing their actions, so they played accordingly'.

I think the key to making it more useful is to consider which option would be MORE beneficial for scum in the scenario.

King Burgundy posted:

You are correct on some of the rest though. Absolutely, Diqnol looking too towney is ALSO a reason to kill him and one that would have been brought up in scum chat. But, that doesn't preclude the double dip. He was too towney AND was on the right track for the scum team. Let me put it this way. If I was on the scum team, and all of Diqnol's other reads were totally off base, I would have considered letting him live a bit longer for a couple reasons:

A)He talks. It's good for the game to let him live so the game stays quality instead of a lurky poo poo fest.
B)He's trusted. If his other reads are wrong, he will successfully lead other other people to bad cuddles.
True, looking too town-y doesn't preclude the double dip, but my point was silencing him isn't needed as an explanation for the kill since there was ample other motivation.

As for point A, it's not scum's job to keep the game lively. It's not nice to say so, but I have noticed many scum would be more comfortable living in a lurky game, so yeah.

Point B is super interesting and goes back to what makes this game different. Diqnol already said who he'd be casing post-mortem and then proceeded to do so! This point resonates with me since Diqnol incorrectly cased me. My first thought after seeing Diqnol was killed was that it was to put suspicion on me! Now I see that's at best a "double dip", but that interpretation works as well as what you're suggesting.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

TheRam posted:

Viva I specifically liked the post because of the effort, I didn't pay attention to the content. 15 more minutes of Vikings then I'll play this game.
It was a nice diagram. It's great to know you are impressed with pretty pictures and not content.


oh god, WIFOM chat :)

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

Ok, everything else I have to say is about Exact Science- MT's case on him, his case on me, very probably my case on him. You will need to wait until tomorrow evening for serious casing/effort, but if you have specific questions I can try to answer before then.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

I just noticed the deadline is Monday, not Tuesday as I had assumed. This is not ideal, but ##vote Exact.

Read his posts before the end of D1, he's trying to salvage the situation by setting up today's lynch.
Read FV's case on him.
Read his case on me on the last page. Everything he quotes has a perfectly logical non-scum response, but he's not interested in hearing my interpretation of events - he's tunnel visioned into interpreting everything I posted this game as a scumtell. Cause his decision is obviously made up and he's (over)manufacturing evidence. He's scum and he has obvious reasons to pick me to case, but there's no great evidence against me and he's scrambling to act like there is. I feel more strongly about this vote than almost any other one I can remember. Please reread him and consider this.

preview: drat, ram

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

Murmur Twin posted:

What happened to your case on WM?

It was a decent case for D1. I have a better one for D2.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

Max posted:

I feel like WM was still a possibility as an alternative lynch candidate when Rarity switched their vote. This vote pretty much sealed Opop's fate at this point, beyond a doubt, and I'm not sure scum would have made that switch.
fwiw I felt certain he was going down before then. There were at least 2 people hanging around who weren't voting him based on Ram's request.


Murmur Twin posted:

One other thing while it's on my mind - I've noticed that my main weakness as of late has been identifying and casing lurker scum.
This is an honorable post.

VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

CapitalistPig posted:

Because I see that she is posting as scum would post, the post I quoted directly in my vote for her was the one that pinged me the hardest (lol)

So you read EXAKT's posts around the lynch yesterday and thought "yup. that guy is posting as town would post."?

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VivaNova
Sep 12, 2009

The most epic adventure ever undertaken

Rarity posted:

How rude
All the votes on us are rude. Is it cause we're too pretty?

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