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CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

If there's one thing I really appreciated about this minisode, it's that the burden of the Time War wasn't put on Eight because...it just seemed a bit unfair to McGann. 90 minutes of screen time and he's the Doctor to push the Red Button, without seeing how he came to that point OR without most casual fans knowing about Big Finish, isn't very cricket.

But we got this, and even in 7 minutes, McGann just owns the part of the Doctor. No one's ever complained that McGann's casting was a poor choice, and the "faith" in him that us long-suffering fans, a rare breed who see Eight as "our" Doctor, was rewarded.

Good Lord, this thread went INSANE with joy that day...I really hope Oxxipation does a review of it when he gets to the 50th.

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Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


It's also probably worth mentioning that the Eighth Doctor visits the Sisterhood of Karn in the EDAs, and that crack he makes about "four minutes, that's ages, what if I get bored?" is right on par with his typical interactions with them. I'm really glad he got 7 more minutes of screen-time. Maybe they'll do another anniversary special in a decade or so and he'll get another two minutes.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible

The only little thing that bothered me about "Night" was the lack of the Doctor Who logo in the ep.

Pinwiz11
Jan 26, 2009

"I think you'll find that when it comes to Sandwich Montoya, the sky is the limit!"

- Too Much Mustard


The only gripe I had about "Night" was no mention of Fitz or Anji as companions... yes, I know they're 8DA only but...

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Bicyclops posted:

It's also probably worth mentioning that the Eighth Doctor visits the Sisterhood of Karn in the EDAs, and that crack he makes about "four minutes, that's ages, what if I get bored?" is right on par with his typical interactions with them. I'm really glad he got 7 more minutes of screen-time. Maybe they'll do another anniversary special in a decade or so and he'll get another two minutes.

Doctor: The Sisterhood of Karn, Keepers of the Flame of utter boredom
Ohila: Eternal life
Doctor: That's the one



Pinwiz11 posted:

The only gripe I had about "Night" was no mention of Fitz or Anji as companions... yes, I know they're 8DA only but...

You can always think of,"Friends, companions I've known" as a catch-all for any other companions too, and not just as a descriptor of the list he already gave

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Yeah, he doesn't say Mary, Samson, Gemma or Liv either.

Emerson Cod
Apr 14, 2004
Here I was just about to tell you all to shut the hell up, and then you stopped talking so I didn't have to.

One note on the review - the Doctor died in the crash in a way that his regeneration would not have triggered. The "potion" restored him temporarily, but it would have worn off and he would have died permanently if he didn't take the second chalice.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I don't think there is anything said one way or the other to support either argument, to be honest. I can't think of any reason why the Doctor WOULDN'T have regenerated, it was "only" a crash and severe physical trauma after all, I don't see why it would have cut off his ability to regenerate. But like I said, there's nothing one way or the other about it, and to me it makes more sense that the Sisterhood interfered in order to control what would have been a chaotic regeneration with a random outcome, forcing him temporarily back to life in his 8th incarnation so they could assure themselves of the outcome they wanted for the next.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


The idea's been knocking around for a long time that if he dies too quickly the regeneration won't have time to kick in, which might have been why Ten permanently died in Turn Left. With a crashing spaceship he goes from zero to dead in no time at all.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Jerusalem posted:

Night of the Doctor

This is going to sound weird, but this short is why I decided to try watching Doctor Who. The only movie/TV website I trust/respect (Dark Horizons) posted this video and freaked the gently caress out about it. Like, lost their minds over it. So I watched it, and thought it was funny, yet dark and serious. Because of this, I started reading into the 50th. I loved the idea that a series existed that had this level of passion. And rewarded fans in the way this video did. So I figured I'd try the first episode of the most recent Doctor (at the time), Matt Smith. After watching Eleventh Hour, I was a lost cause.

So the absolute least you can say about this video is that it added one fan. Good on it.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

How does it taste?

Dinosaur Gum

I thought it was pretty well universally accepted that a particularly quick/brutal/traumatic death would kill a Time Lord before regeneration could happen.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Dabir posted:

The idea's been knocking around for a long time that if he dies too quickly the regeneration won't have time to kick in, which might have been why Ten permanently died in Turn Left. With a crashing spaceship he goes from zero to dead in no time at all.

I always figured in Turn Left he just drowned over and over and over again until he ran out of lives, which is pretty loving grim. There's also the idea that he simply chose not to regenerate because he didn't WANT to live anymore, which is perhaps even grimmer

thrawn527 posted:

So the absolute least you can say about this video is that it added one fan. Good on it.

That's pretty great, McGann is a proven draw!

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Jerusalem posted:

That's pretty great, McGann is a proven draw!

Is this why McGann got shuffled down the card to the audios and David Tennant got pushed to the main series?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


McGann is clearly only "wig over"

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Jerusalem posted:

McGann is clearly only "wig over"



May you find a copy of a full copy of The Tenth Planet in your Christmas Cracker this year.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


jivjov posted:

I thought it was pretty well universally accepted that a particularly quick/brutal/traumatic death would kill a Time Lord before regeneration could happen.

At the very least, this seems necessary to maintain tension in all the non-regeneration episodes. It'd get pretty old if the Doctor got all whenever somebody threatened to shoot him. "Hope you got another clip there, champ."

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



CobiWann posted:

She's a great actor and I'm sure she'll appreciate being on a show where no one dies!

Just this once?

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible

jivjov posted:

I thought it was pretty well universally accepted that a particularly quick/brutal/traumatic death would kill a Time Lord before regeneration could happen.

It is.

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS



Except in that one Unbound audio. Specifically the end of Full Fathom Five where the Doctor is shot, regenerates and then is shot again.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Wasn't that a line in Kill the Moon? That they could keep shooting, but he'd still be standing.

docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

High marks for compassion, low marks for survival skills





The_Doctor posted:

Wasn't that a line in Kill the Moon? That they could keep shooting, but he'd still be standing.

The Doctor is always scrupulously honest, particularly when trying to intimidate people who have guns pointed at him.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The_Doctor posted:

Wasn't that a line in Kill the Moon? That they could keep shooting, but he'd still be standing.

He says that he doesn't know if he has a regeneration limit anymore, so they're likely to run out of bullets before he runs out of lives. Of course it was more about pointing out the lunacy and stupidity of the threat in the first place, telling her to go ahead and shoot a child, a lady and an old man instead of just asking them what was going on.

As always with Doctor Who, the way it works is whatever suits the story at the time - sometimes regeneration can be blocked, sometimes it can be overwhelmed, sometimes you can be dead for a couple of hours in a hospital morgue and then boot your way out, and sometimes you trip up and hit your head on the edge of the TARDIS console while wearing a wig and your predecessor's costume.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


I always reasoned that it wasn't the 10th Doctor under the sheet in Turn Left, but whatever the 12th Doctor would have looked like had he not used up his next regeneration being vain.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Or he could've not regenerated because being crushed underwater and drowning doesn't give his body space to be alive again.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Or sometimes you could be the Master and go "Regeneration? HAH!"

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


One of the things I liked about Tennant's overlong farewell tour was his conversation with Wilf in which he talked about how regeneration did feel like dying. It means that regenerating by violent death isn't just losing hundreds of years of his life, it's a real, personal death. Five's conversation with Iris in whichever Excelis he's in supports it too. It means they don't have to add artificial direness to situations by making it a danger that he won't regenerate this time and trying to define the exact rules; it's a death just like (Sandman spoilers) Morpheus's: despite Dream continuing on, Morpheus himself really does die.

That's my favorite thing about regeneration. It's like the incumbent Doctor dies and a totally different person suddenly wakes up with all of his memories.

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS


Bicyclops posted:

One of the things I liked about Tennant's overlong farewell tour was his conversation with Wilf in which he talked about how regeneration did feel like dying. It means that regenerating by violent death isn't just losing hundreds of years of his life, it's a real, personal death. Five's conversation with Iris in whichever Excelis he's in supports it too. It means they don't have to add artificial direness to situations by making it a danger that he won't regenerate this time and trying to define the exact rules; it's a death just like (Sandman spoilers) Morpheus's: despite Dream continuing on, Morpheus himself really does die.

That's my favorite thing about regeneration. It's like the incumbent Doctor dies and a totally different person suddenly wakes up with all of his memories.

Well, not QUITE a completely different person. They always have a core of Doctorness in the middle (which is why the valeyard as a concept never really worked for me). They might be arrogant, or a bit more devious, or sillier or a hopeless Romantic, but they're always still the Doctor.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

The_Doctor posted:

Wasn't that a line in Kill the Moon? That they could keep shooting, but he'd still be standing.

I think that was in the audio Colditz.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

Power Gamer for Hire


CobiWann posted:

Good Lord, this thread went INSANE with joy that day...I really hope Oxxipation does a review of it when he gets to the 50th.

I kinda hope he doesn't actually. Odds are it'll turn out like his "School Reunion" review. He hasn't got the background, never watched the TV Movie, refuses to listen to the audios no matter how much Doctor What prods him to. It'll just be "who's this guy? Who is he talking about? What's a Karn?" Then he'll shrug and say "it ain't for me, it's for all you old time fans."

And he'll be right.

Mortanis
Dec 28, 2005

It's your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight.

College Slice

jng2058 posted:

I kinda hope he doesn't actually. Odds are it'll turn out like his "School Reunion" review. He hasn't got the background, never watched the TV Movie, refuses to listen to the audios no matter how much Doctor What prods him to. It'll just be "who's this guy? Who is he talking about? What's a Karn?" Then he'll shrug and say "it ain't for me, it's for all you old time fans."

And he'll be right.

I wouldn't mind that. He's gained a bit of perspective since School Reunion, but I'd like to see his thoughts. I tried to get my Doctor Who loving friends to watch it, but they're purely NuWho and couldn't give a crap at all. I'd like to see the take of someone looking at it through fresh eyes, so if he does it for the thread I'd finally get my wish, and it gives enough context to make it work.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008



Ham Wrangler

Oxx might be able to appreciate the craft involved in stitching the continuity back together, even if most of that continuity isn't meaningful to him.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters

It's also a nice little explanation of how the War Doctor came to be.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


One criticism I remember being raised about "Night" (in the previous thread, I think, or maybe the one before it) is that it turned the Eighth Doctor into a coward. I think I can see that, but at the same time, I don't believe it's necessarily a bad thing. Indeed, it calls back to what I think is one of the best moments of Eccleston's season, when he's facing the Dalek Emperor in "The Parting of the Ways":

Dalek Emperor posted:

Then prove yourself, Doctor. What are you? Killer or coward?

The Doctor posted:

Coward. Any day.

Really, "The Parting of the Ways" is probably where the Time War should've been left to finish. It should've been the Doctor coming to terms with what he did in the Time War, but we kept going back to it. I understand why they did, of course, but that's the way it is.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Wheat Loaf posted:

One criticism I remember being raised about "Night" (in the previous thread, I think, or maybe the one before it) is that it turned the Eighth Doctor into a coward. I think I can see that, but at the same time, I don't believe it's necessarily a bad thing.

I've never understood that accusation. It wasn't action or involvement the Doctor was opposed to, but the Time Lords themselves. He may have been born of them, but was increasingly disgusted by their actions even over the run of the original series. [colinbakerspeech] Most of all, the idea of war has always been completely anathema to the Doctor. War is broad, war is uncompromising, war is loyalty to the chain of command. War is rejecting that there can be "another way."

Up to the point where he chooses the "warrior" cup, he would have considered that the coward's way. Not having to make the decisions yourself, responsibility spread across the entirety of "your side", dedication not to freedom or adventure or even morality, but simply to win the conflict at any cost. To accept that, to turn his back on everything he'd lived for since the moment he stole the TARDIS... that's why he could no longer be the Doctor.

At least that's what I got out of it.

Mortanis
Dec 28, 2005

It's your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight.

College Slice

Eight was very much a "Why can't I just fly around the universe and savor it all and just not be bothered with the Time War because it interferes with my whimsical wonder" sort of Doctor. Maybe it's a bit fingers in ears, but he's Switzerland, he's out, he's just not part of it. It's not cowardice, he's just a guy that wants to keep on having adventures and enjoying the universe and it's not his fault the universe is tearing itself down around him. Until he physically can't continue on any more he just ignores it.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


See, that still seems more "French Resistance" to me than Switzerland. He certainly would have foiled the Daleks at any available opportunity and thumbed his nose at the Time Lords, but he would have done it all on his own terms.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

I have a question about Time Lords. In Classic Who, when he ran into other Time Lords, was it through various times in each other's history? Would he meet the Master, who had memories of run ins that the Doctor hadn't actually done yet? When he went back to Gallifrey, was it some how removed from time and they always, say, aged at the same rate? Or, wait, actually never mind, that's not possible after the 50th.

The concept of the Time War confuses me. How did only the War Doctor experience it, if it was happening at all times?

"Shut up and don't over think it," is a perfectly valid answer, by the way.

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Hey, Karn, what do you say to console someone who just got Thought Erased? You give up? "Need a hand?"


thrawn527 posted:

I have a question about Time Lords. In Classic Who, when he ran into other Time Lords, was it through various times in each other's history? Would he meet the Master, who had memories of run ins that the Doctor hadn't actually done yet? When he went back to Gallifrey, was it some how removed from time and they always, say, aged at the same rate? Or, wait, actually never mind, that's not possible after the 50th.

The concept of the Time War confuses me. How did only the War Doctor experience it, if it was happening at all times?

"Shut up and don't over think it," is a perfectly valid answer, by the way.

It's "Time locked." I think that you're only capable of visiting Gallifrey in their "current" time.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Bicyclops posted:

It's "Time locked." I think that you're only capable of visiting Gallifrey in their "current" time.

So, like, if 2 Doctors ever decide to go to Gallifrey, they're going to be there at the same time whether they like it or not?

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surc
Aug 17, 2004

Tenuki Tanuki.


Bicyclops posted:

It's "Time locked." I think that you're only capable of visiting Gallifrey in their "current" time.

I thought the idea of it being "Time locked" was that nobody could visit it, it was all sealed off from time and space along with the whole war. And only the war doctor is having it happen because it happens everywhere at once until he time locks it, at which point it never happened at all, and he only remembers it as part of his personal continuity.

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