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CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Jerusalem posted:

Nicholas Briggs:

So you have a TARDIS...inside a TARDIS...INSIDE a TARDIS. It's Ten and Donna Noble vs. a Dalek, a Cyberman, a Sontaran, an Ice Warrior, a Silurian, a Zygon, an Auton, and Ric Flair.

We'll have a Silence run-in as well.

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Dr. Gene Dango MD
May 20, 2010

Fuck them other cats I'm running with my own wolfpack

Keep fronting like youse a thug and get ya dome pushed back


Jerusalem posted:

Less known is that Robert Holmes was so nervous about writing his first Doctor Who story that Terry Nation decided to mentor him by replacing the script,"The Monster that Terrifies Children" with a ripping little tale of his own called The Space Pirates.
Was Holmes first story The Space Pirates? It's a rather good one. And drat, I gotta watch Genesis again. It sits with Caves and War Games as old episodes with amazing pacing.

Does anyone have a "classic" who story that they're not overly fond of? I mean one that everyone swears by but you just didn't enjoy that much? I would have to go with The City of Death, it's good don't get me wrong but I never considered it in my top thirty, let alone one of my very favorites. This is all subjective, of course.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I don't know if is widely considered "great" or anything, but I'm always surprised to hear people praising The Web Planet. I found it a real slog to sit though, the constant background buzz and the smeared vaseline lens made it feel like I was getting a headache just trying to watch it.

I appreciate the notion of what they were trying to go for, but good intentions only carry so far - even in the context of,"early 60s British show going with crazy concepts on a shoestring budget".

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

I didn't like City Of Death because I'd already read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.

FreezingInferno
Jul 15, 2010

THERE.
WILL.
BE.
NO.
BATTLE.
HERE!


Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:

Does anyone have a "classic" who story that they're not overly fond of? I mean one that everyone swears by but you just didn't enjoy that much?

I'm not too keen on Earthshock. Much like the Davison era in general, it just doesn't work for me. It comes pretty close to working, but not quite.

Of course, the exception to the Davison era for me is Caves of Androzani, which I adore. I just wish I loved Davison's other stories as much as I loved that one.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007



FreezingInferno posted:

Of course, the exception to the Davison era for me is Caves of Androzani, which I adore. I just wish I loved Davison's other stories as much as I loved that one.

I still don't quite get the universal love for Caves of Androzani. It's alright... but I dunno.

I think it just got way too overhyped for me on here before I saw it.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



2house2fly posted:

Basically Name Of The Doctor has a villain who wants to retcon a bunch of previous episodes so they never happened.

Fox Broadcasting?

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


i think The War Games is too long

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The_Doctor posted:

i think The War Games is too long

You are entitled to your opinion, Terrance Dicks was one of the writers and he agrees with you.


You're both wrong

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


FreezingInferno posted:

I'm not too keen on Earthshock. Much like the Davison era in general, it just doesn't work for me. It comes pretty close to working, but not quite.

"Earthshock" is overrated. Most people probably say it's good because the Cybermen are in it.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Wheat Loaf posted:

"Earthshock" is overrated. Most people probably say it's good because the Cybermen are in it.

That's not the reason the world loves that story

Rat Flavoured Rats
Oct 24, 2005

I'm a little fairy girl ^_^

I find pretty much all the Pertwee stories that go beyond 4 parts a massive drag.

Attitude Indicator
Apr 3, 2009


Rat Flavoured Rats posted:

I find pretty much all the Pertwee stories a massive drag.

docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

High marks for compassion, low marks for survival skills





Some people, but only the incorrect ones, might call Vengeance on Varos a classic.

And it's okay, I've got a key.

adhuin
Sep 15, 2008

Sobriety blows

The Great Intelligence was a goddamn hero for trying to erase the Classic Doctor Who!

Burn it with fire!

Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:

Was Holmes first story The Space Pirates?

No - it was The Krotons. From what I remember it impressed them enough that they got him to put The Space Pirates together to fill in one of gaps they had due to all the other other stories they had planned falling apart.

And personally I can't see what is so good about Revelation of the Daleks - overrated dull nonsense which barely features the lead character! Then again it's typical for Saward who prefers to pimp out his own characters at the expense of the actual leads (such as Richard Mace in The Visitation.

Zaroff fucked around with this message at Jul 31, 2015 around 10:37

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Zaroff posted:

No - it was The Krotons.

Which is mostly rubbish, but has those Confused Saffer Aliens That Run A Quiz so it's not all bad

Pesky Splinter posted:

Ruination Cordiale, doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

Ruination Coordination, duh

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Do modern stories count? Because I don't like Day of the Doctor, Silence in the Library, The Pandorica Opens, The Impossible Astronaut, The Time of Angels hold on I'm seeing a theme

I'm not a fan of The Deadly Assassin for a few reasons, mostly because I don't like the dull civil servant portrayal of the Time Lords

Jerusalem posted:

I don't know if is widely considered "great" or anything, but I'm always surprised to hear people praising The Web Planet

It's widely considered one of the worst Doctor Who stories (bottom 10 kind of bad), this fits the conversation about as well as going ""Greats" I don't like? Well I'm just not a fan of Fear Her"

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


MrL_JaKiri posted:

It's widely considered one of the worst Doctor Who stories (bottom 10 kind of bad),

Whenever I talk about anything related to Doctor Who online opinions, it's about reactions I've seen in threads on these forums. I rarely if ever look at anything regarding Doctor Who anywhere else online, since that way madness seems to lie. vv

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS


Zaroff posted:


And personally I can't see what is so good about Revelation of the Daleks - overrated dull nonsense which barely features the lead character! Then again it's typical for Saward who prefers to pimp out his own characters at the expense of the actual leads (such as Richard Mace in The Visitation.

Is Revelation rated highly? I mean, in comparison to the stories that surround it in that season it's a work of loving art, but I've never really seen people singing it's praises.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

Fancy.


The best thing you can say about "Revelation of the Daleks" is at least it's not "Resurrection of the Daleks".

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



Fil5000 posted:

Is Revelation rated highly? I mean, in comparison to the stories that surround it in that season it's a work of loving art, but I've never really seen people singing it's praises.

Revelation has a dedicated fanbase, and some do indeed say it's a classic. I like it a lot (yes, including Alexei Sayle) although it's got some big flaws; I'm a real sucker for Roger Limb music and Graeme Harper's directing style, which was at least ten years ahead of its time. And is there a creepier, scarier scene anywhere than Stengos in the glass Dalek begging his daughter to kill him? And it's also great to see Roy Tromelly get a chance to play Davros on TV with something more to him than just yelling at people.

Incidentally, this seems like a good time to mention the Doctor Who Dynamic Rankings; by their nature they'll always be slightly tilted towards what just aired, but they're still pretty great. Vote early and often!

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Jerusalem posted:

Whenever I talk about anything related to Doctor Who online opinions, it's about reactions I've seen in threads on these forums. I rarely if ever look at anything regarding Doctor Who anywhere else online, since that way madness seems to lie. vv

When I've seen it it's always been "Well people hate the Web Planet but it has a lot going for it, I mean it's obviously beyond what they can do but at least they had a go" rather than saying "Phwoah, move over Dalek Invasion of Earth"

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

Jerusalem posted:

Whenever I talk about anything related to Doctor Who online opinions, it's about reactions I've seen in threads on these forums. I rarely if ever look at anything regarding Doctor Who anywhere else online, since that way madness seems to lie. vv

After fifteen years, my wife is getting back into convention cosplay. So she’s been all over cosplay websites.

I’ve seen…things…

In some ways, this thread is the Zero Room of Doctor Who fandom.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


CobiWann posted:

After fifteen years, my wife is getting back into convention cosplay. So she’s been all over cosplay websites.

I’ve seen…things…

...and I never want to see them again.

Flight Bisque
Feb 23, 2008

There is, surprisingly, always hope.

CobiWann posted:

After fifteen years, my wife is getting back into convention cosplay. So she’s been all over cosplay websites.

I’ve seen…things…

In some ways, this thread is the Zero Room of Doctor Who fandom.

There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things which act against everything we believe in. They must be fought.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008


Cosplay is infinitely more socially acceptable than long-form audio dramas will ever be.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

josh04 posted:

Cosplay is infinitely more socially acceptable than long-form audio dramas will ever be.

PriorMarcus
Oct 16, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY



Sorry dude, he's right.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Does Serial count? Everyone's into that.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Ditto Welcome to Night Vale, which is closer to our accursed obsession.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

PriorMarcus posted:

Sorry dude, he's right.

Eh, it’s all good. Long form audios make me happy, reviewing them make me happy, being a niche fandom of a niche fandom makes me happy, this bottle of NyQuil and can of Red Bull makes me happy…

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?




Short Synopsis: The Doctor and Lucie get stuck in a town where it is ALWAYS the 1st of September, 1991.

Long Synopsis: The Doctor and Lucie arrive in the seemingly deserted town of Thorington, Suffolk. The seaside is missing, the shops are closed, cans of food sit sealed but empty on shelves, and every day the newspaper is the same as the day before. The radios don't work, but the newspaper reports every day that Bryan Adams' Everything I do is STILL number one and on track to break all records. People slowly emerge, seeing absolutely nothing wrong with this strange situation, including the fact that every so often tanks or APCs invade the town and they all hide in fallout shelters under the ground. The local shopkeeper's daughter is missing, every so often the town's inhabitants hear a sinister voice, and when Lucie gets captured by the military she's informed there is NO human life in the village. An old-school Who villain returns, and the story ends on a surprisingly sinister note, as well as some troubling moral implications in regards to the Doctor's attitude/actions.

What's Good:

  • The premise. There is a wonderfully creepy vibe to the whole thing, everything has a well-realized air of wrongness to it. On the surface it's just a standard English town, but even the barest scratching at the surface reveals that something is horribly, horribly wrong. For a time it even seems like they've wandered into a ghost story, but that doesn't explain the lack of seaside, the empty cans of food etc. Why is the military there? What's with the mysterious voice only the inhabitants can see? Why are the inhabitants so keen to avoid being seen by a military who can't seem to detect them even when their sensors easily pick up Lucie? The premises is creepy and raises a lot of interesting questions, and to the story's credit it tries to answer all those questions as best it can.

  • The explanation. The answers, when they come, all mostly make perfect sense. As mad or out there as all of the weird things going on are, half of them have very mundane but feasible explanations and the rest all fit in fine with the world of Doctor Who. More importantly, those latter points aren't just thrown out there with a technobabble explanation made up to fit the script, but rely on a mixture of prior knowledge of Doctor Who and carefully placed foreshadowing/revelation of seemingly unconnected data. Everything ties together, both fictional and real-world issues, to form a cohesive (and satisfying whole). For example, the missing seaside is a result of the "seaside" just being a lake used as a placeholder for a Cold War experimental "English" town for training deep-cover spies. An oil drilling operation has drained the lake, that same oil is needed by the Nestene Consciousness to propagate its species, and this kicks off the "terrorist" acts that bring in the military. There is cause and effect, foreshadowing and linkage, for the most part nothing happens that hasn't been carefully placed within the context of the world the story presents us with.

  • The parallels/callbacks. This story has some very obvious and deliberate parallels with/callbacks to Spearhead from Space, the first 3rd Doctor television story. This is most obvious in relation to the presence of the Autons, but they tie it in even more specifically by mentioning they came down at the same time as the meteor shower in that 3rd Doctor story. It works well for establishing that Earth and it's myriad invasions aren't just restricted to England (and specifically London), but that this is a global phenomenon. More parallels are obvious in the involvement of the Military, immediately bringing to mind UNIT, something that is brought up in the story itself with a few jokes about the Doctor becoming their Scientific Adviser.

  • The "monster". This story takes an old-school Who villain and gives us an interesting twist on them. In previous stories, the Autons have not been much more than unthinking foot soldiers, with the only real exception being Rory in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang. In general, they've needed a mastermind figure to direct them, and it is that level of command that gives them their menace, the actual Autons themselves being little more than remote controlled plastic. The only real exception to this I can think of is Rose, but that was a story more about the titular character and her life, and how meeting the Doctor changed that (arguably) for the better. In Spearhead from Space there was Channing, in Terror of the Autons there was the Master, in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang the Alliance was using the Autons to lull the Doctor into a false sense of security. In this story, however, the Autons are without guidance, the Nestene Consciousness that controlled them fragmented and buried deep enough that its voice could not reach them. This left them to default to their normal behavior - to fit in and not attract attention - and for 17 years following the end of the Cold War/break up of the Soviet Union, they've continued to live in the training village being "normal" human beings. As a result, we see Autons with, of all things, autonomy, and a chance to finally see them become people in their own right. This makes them doubly threatened, not only by the military but by the resurgent Nestene Consciousness that is what would normally drive them/give them purpose, and now presents a threat to the people they have become.

  • Lucie's actions. Big Finish seems to have gotten better by this point at figuring out how to make the companion in a story be more than just an audience conduit asking the Doctor,"But what does that mean?" or getting into peril for the Doctor to save them. Helped in part by Lucie being a rather brash/forthright character, she forces herself into the story seemingly by sheer force of personality alone, making a point of dominating most scenes she is in with supporting characters (with Paul McGann, they have a good back and forth that puts them on equal terms) or otherwise having some integral part to play in the plot. It's helped by Sheridan Smith sounding like she does have personality herself, Lucie's character feels mostly natural.

What's Not:

  • Lucie's reactions. Unfortunately, Lucie's personality is also strong enough that writers seem to have a tendency to make her throw out witty/snarky comments in ALL situations, rather than picking and choosing their moments. This can make her seem almost painfully detached from the actual story at times, such as one particular scene in this story where she just seen multiple murders take place and is standing in the midst of bloody death and destruction... and she's on the radio still mostly cracking the same jokes/being catty with the Doctor as she explains the situation. It feels like Lucie has had a firm character established for all the writers to use (thus avoiding wild shifts in personality between stories) but they are allowing it to dominate their writing, rather than letting it flow naturally out of the context of the story being told.

  • The competence of the Military. It is hard to take them seriously when these guys appear to be most incompetent boobs. They grab Lucie when she pops up on their sensors, but insist that there are no other people around despite Lucie having seen several since arriving in the village. It boggles belief that in all their time there, they've not only never spotted one of the inhabitants with their own eyes, but that they haven't noticed any sign of their presence - shifted objects, the fact the place is still "lived in" and not overgrown with foliage or overrun by wildlife etc. They're present in the little town because of "terrorist" activities, but they seem content to just kind of hang around at their base and just send out the odd patrol which spots nothing, despite those activities continuing. Lethbridge-Stewart would be outraged at such lax behavior, and it doesn't exactly make for giving the military much more than a sense of being out of their depth, incompetent and generally useless.

  • The Doctor's morality. While Paul McGann gives his normal fine performance, the story does a disservice in its writing in the way he so quickly and apparently unconcernedly decides to prevent most of the Autons from discovering who/what they are, cutting off their true selves and burying that almost desperate spark of the Nestene Consciousness once again. While it is true that he points out that the concerns of the "voice" are hardly altruistic, they are essentially the same as that of the Military - it is trying to protect its own, and the Doctor seems entirely too eager to just cut it off/bury it instead of attempting either diplomacy or finding some other third way alternative. When he's done, he doesn't seem to particularly care one way or the other what happens the inhabitants of the town, and freely admits what he suspects MIGHT happen but comments on it in a joking way. After the story takes it time wallowing in the (very good) creepy atmosphere of the first half, it seems to rush itself to get through the rest, and the Doctor is hauled along for the ride acting very untypically in the process.

  • The sinister undertones of the resolution. Tying in to the above, the entire resolution has a rather sinister (and tragic) edge to it. The Autons are effectively left to suffer the same fate that they were "saved" from when the Doctor reburied the spark of the Nestene Consciousness that was taking control of their minds. The military's rather callous attitude is straight up vocalized by the commanding officer who makes no bones about what he intends to do, and to make matters worse it is made clear just how bad/evil these plans are because he includes the Doctor (and Lucie, I guess) as part of the same group, and the Doctor and Lucie's jokey "escape" is very much made up to be a good thing, avoiding a bad fate.... but that other group is still facing the same thing, only most of them have no idea what is coming for them, and they certainly don't have a time machine to escape in. After lip-service was paid to the idea of allowing these people to retain their individuality (itself tying in to the 1991 date and the parallels with the break-up of the Soviet Union), it is very much suggested they are going to lose that... and then the story is over and as far as we know, that is exactly what happened. Not exactly a feel-good ending, which is fine in itself except the way the story is presented the ending is treated as light-hearted and a bit of a lark.

Final Thoughts:

Brave New Town has some admirable points going for it. It's a story that takes advantage of both Doctor Who continuity and genuine Cold War politics/history to weave an interesting tale. At its strongest when it is dealing with establishing the creepy premise, things feel rushed in the back half and get a little messy. A muddied moral message from the Doctor and some real sinister undertones to the ending detract from the quality of the story in my view, and it does feel like some wasted potential. With some rewrites and a bit more focus on the aspects of individuality vs collective thought (making use of the obvious Soviet Union parallels) this could have been a really distinct story. As it is, it feels more like a cool idea not quite pulled off, though it is a welcome return for a classic Who creature.

Dr. Gene Dango MD
May 20, 2010

Fuck them other cats I'm running with my own wolfpack

Keep fronting like youse a thug and get ya dome pushed back


FreezingInferno posted:

Of course, the exception to the Davison era for me is Caves of Androzani, which I adore. I just wish I loved Davison's other stories as much as I loved that one.
Caves of Adrozani has one of my least favorite Doctors (sorry Davison nothing personal) my least favorite companions (that one is personal) and manages somehow to be my favorite classic serial behind The War Games.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Do modern stories count? Because I don't like Day of the Doctor, Silence in the Library, The Pandorica Opens, The Impossible Astronaut, The Time of Angels hold on I'm seeing a theme
Sorry no, if they did count I would have to include the majority of Tennant and Smiths run. And unfortunately, Capaldi. He's wonderful, but there's only so much he can do with those lines and situations.

2house2fly posted:

I didn't like City Of Death because I'd already read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.
Haha, yeah.

surc
Aug 17, 2004

Tenuki Tanuki.


2house2fly posted:

Basically Name Of The Doctor has a villain who wants to retcon a bunch of previous episodes so they never happened.

Holy poo poo! This is the last piece. I finally figured it out, Moffat wants all children terrified of his personal childhood phobias!

Linear Zoetrope
Nov 28, 2011

A hero must cook

Only Peter Capaldi can save us and bring back The Chumblies!

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


Man, The Chaos Pool is stupid. At least The Destroyer of Delights had all the cool Arabian Nights stuff and bickering Guardians. And that Farsi-talkin' robot

Prisoner's Dilemma was pretty decent as well, even if it didn't really have an ending.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:

Sorry no, if they did count I would have to include the majority of Tennant and Smiths run. And unfortunately, Capaldi. He's wonderful, but there's only so much he can do with those lines and situations.

Yeah, but not all of the runs are counted as "classics" in the same way as, say, Caves of Androzani; I didn't name LKH for example

Dr. Gene Dango MD
May 20, 2010

Fuck them other cats I'm running with my own wolfpack

Keep fronting like youse a thug and get ya dome pushed back


That's a good point. I suppose even despite my classic series bias I've got to admit some modern episodes are among the best the series has ever produced.

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cargohills
Apr 17, 2014



Fun Doctor Who fact: Dark Eyes 2 is really confusing

e: I really love the Viyrans, their design has a real "classic series" vibe to them.

cargohills fucked around with this message at Aug 1, 2015 around 23:51

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