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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Yeah, he makes so much more sense as Wrath. Wrath isn't just extreme anger it's also retribution punishment. Wrath is both of those.

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SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



The 03 anime doesn't have Ling, the best version of Greed, Olivier, or Kimblee as an actually interesting character. So it should not be bothered with.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


I like how the 03 anime and the manga went in completely different directions with the religion thing. 03 was pretty 'heh, where's your god now, dad.' but the manga was more agnostic. Maybe even quasi-religious - it seemed to posit that there was a god, but that you didn't necessarily have to worship him.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I think FMA's view of religion is really interesting. Tying alchemy (especially Ed and Al's alchemy) explicitly to religion isn't an unexpected way to go but the path they go with it is.

I think it's interesting that at the end of the day Ed's victory is giving up his need for miracles to change the world and him willingly accepting a life where he can't depend on prayer for help, while Al goes the opposite direction and goes whole-hog into it and neither is portrayed as wrong or dumb. It's a nicer viewpoint than 'lol, religion' or 'lol, atheism' or whatever.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Endorph posted:

I like how the 03 anime and the manga went in completely different directions with the religion thing. 03 was pretty 'heh, where's your god now, dad.' but the manga was more agnostic. Maybe even quasi-religious - it seemed to posit that there was a god, but that you didn't necessarily have to worship him.

I'm pretty sure god didn't actually give a gently caress either as long as you weren't trying to bring back people from the dead or subvert him

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


TheKingofSprings posted:

I'm pretty sure god didn't actually give a gently caress either as long as you weren't trying to bring back people from the dead or subvert him
god totally had the assist in the scar vs wrath fight

well, god, old man fu, and that guy with the crab arm

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Endorph posted:

god totally had the assist in the scar vs wrath fight

well, god, old man fu, and that guy with the crab arm

Wrath was super gung-ho about helping his dad subvert god, he had it coming

Bad Seafood
Dec 10, 2010

If you must blink, do it now.


FMA deals in a lot of unexpectedly thoughtful themes for what is essentially a kid's adventure story. Recently I've been reading a lot of literature on the Japanese side of WWII, soldiers' letters and diaries and things, after which revisiting FMA yielded a lot of parallels I'd missed the first time (beyond the obvious surface connections, I mean).

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Arakawa mentioned that she actually went around and talked to a lot of former soldiers, which probably has a lot to do with it.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Bad Seafood posted:

FMA deals in a lot of unexpectedly thoughtful themes for what is essentially a kid's adventure story. Recently I've been reading a lot of literature on the Japanese side of WWII, soldiers' letters and diaries and things, after which revisiting FMA yielded a lot of parallels I'd missed the first time (beyond the obvious surface connections, I mean).

I think part of what I like about FMA (the manga at least) is that it isn't so... black and white.

Characters have a lot of elements to them which are presented as neutral or at least not evil. Major-General Armstrong and Mustang both can be absurdly vicious, conniving and politics-minded but that is presented as just part of who they are and it doesn't prevent them from being heroic characters. Killing someone is portrayed as hard and painful but not necessarily evil, but also as something you can grow uncomfortably used to.

There are obviously evil characters and obviously good characters but it's willing to address the idea that good and evil can exist over a large spectrum that can sometimes be contradictory.

Roland Jones
Aug 18, 2011


People beat me to it, but yeah, Bradley shows very little pride (he's even pretty humble and silly at times), but he's just a simmering pot of rage and hate at all times, even if he pretends otherwise for his public persona, and when it comes out it's spectacular. Also, again, I think that Wrath having the title Führer (again, a homophone for furor, i.e. rage or madness) is amazing because it's just right there the whole time. I'm honestly not sure if it's a deliberate pun or an amazing coincidence but it's perfect.

I might actually rewatch Brotherhood sometime soon, now that I think about it. I think some family members would like it; I could show them it.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Back when FMA aired on YTV I spent longer than I'd like to admit thinking Bradley's actual title was the Fuhrer-King.

Bad Seafood
Dec 10, 2010

If you must blink, do it now.


Endorph posted:

Arakawa mentioned that she actually went around and talked to a lot of former soldiers, which probably has a lot to do with it.
Most likely. War in FMA is a far more personal and intimate experience than it usually is in a lot of manga and anime that touch on the subject. War guilt, also.

ImpAtom posted:

I think part of what I like about FMA (the manga at least) is that it isn't so... black and white.

Characters have a lot of elements to them which are presented as neutral or at least not evil. Major-General Armstrong and Mustang both can be absurdly vicious, conniving and politics-minded but that is presented as just part of who they are and it doesn't prevent them from being heroic characters. Killing someone is portrayed as hard and painful but not necessarily evil, but also as something you can grow uncomfortably used to.

There are obviously evil characters and obviously good characters but it's willing to address the idea that good and evil can exist over a large spectrum that can sometimes be contradictory.
What's more, there's a recurring theme of people building off their past mistakes (which are sometimes quite heinous) in the pursuit of a better world. Dr. Marcoh participated in human experimentation during the war, yet you'd be hard pressed to find a character who values individual human lives more than he does. His terrible experiments produced the philosopher's stone, that miracle macguffin of all macguffins, which he uses to treat people for free as a small town doctor. He doesn't pretend such simple gestures could possibly wash away the blood from his hands, but he doesn't allow his guilt to prevent him from doing good now, in the present - including treating otherwise fatal injuries with the power of the stone.

This ties in with another point I made in the anime chat thread awhile back, that FMA seems like one of the few shounen series to actually allow its heroes to be "Wrong" about key things, only to later address those issues through character development. Most times the good guys hold the monopoly on what is right.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!

I buy Steam inventories, add me if interested!




Clever Betty

Does the philosopher's stone count as a macguffin? We're told in fairly grotesque detail exactly how they're produced and used, aren't macguffins generally distant, unexplained sources of power/goals?

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Captain Invictus posted:

Does the philosopher's stone count as a macguffin? We're told in fairly grotesque detail exactly how they're produced and used, aren't macguffins generally distant, unexplained sources of power/goals?

It counts in the first anime but not the second I would say

Bad Seafood
Dec 10, 2010

If you must blink, do it now.


Captain Invictus posted:

Does the philosopher's stone count as a macguffin? We're told in fairly grotesque detail exactly how they're produced and used, aren't macguffins generally distant, unexplained sources of power/goals?

TheKingofSprings posted:

It counts in the first anime but not the second I would say
Yeah, true, my bad.

I meant something more like Marcoh winds up with the proverbial source of ultimate power and puts it to humble, altruistic uses.

Butt Ghost
Nov 23, 2013



Wait, so as someone who didn't care for the animes, is the manga actually worth reading? Since I do like the concept a lot.

Bad Seafood
Dec 10, 2010

If you must blink, do it now.


Depends on what you didn't like about the anime adaptations.

Squallege
Jan 7, 2006

No greater good, no just cause



Grimey Drawer

Greed's the best homunculus in both shows.

Two Tone Shoes
Jan 2, 2009

All that's missing is the ring.


There were a few things I liked about the 2003 anime more than Brotherhood/the Manga. I thought Scar's character arc was better (even if his final fight wasn't nearly as awesome) and the Homunculi actually being the results of human transmutation(the original boogeyman of the series) that were then sought out and recruited instead of stuff Father pooped out (even if the sins theming fits better in the latter scenario). Lust was also obviously a real character instead of just some lady Mustang torches.

But most of the Dante body swapping stuff and the Rose revisit and other things weren't very good and you end up missing up on Ling and May and Yoki and more stuff that wasn't as good, so, yeah, Brotherhood was better overall but they did a really good job with 2003.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Two Tone Shoes posted:

There were a few things I liked about the 2003 anime more than Brotherhood/the Manga. I thought Scar's character arc was better (even if his final fight wasn't nearly as awesome) and the Homunculi actually being the results of human transmutation(the original boogeyman of the series) that were then sought out and recruited instead of stuff Father pooped out (even if the sins theming fits better in the latter scenario). Lust was also obviously a real character instead of just some lady Mustang torches.

But most of the Dante body swapping stuff and the Rose revisit and other things weren't very good and you end up missing up on Ling and May and Yoki and more stuff that wasn't as good, so, yeah, Brotherhood was better overall but they did a really good job with 2003.

I actually prefer Dante to Father, mainly because I don't like the idea that ultimate responsibility for the Amestris government's crimes lies with someone with fundamentally non-human motivations. I do think that the return of Rose was pretty distasteful (it almost comes across as "lol Christians worship a rape baby"), although a lot of people on other sites seem to object more to the idea that Ed's speech about moving forward didn't cause everyone in Liore to live happily ever after.

Butt Ghost
Nov 23, 2013



Bad Seafood posted:

Depends on what you didn't like about the anime adaptations.
It's been a while, but from what I remember, I didn't really care for the humor, and 2003 series felt a bit boring. In retrospective, I didn't watch a whole lot of Brotherhood, so maybe I should reserve judgment on that. It's not even really a strong dislike, it's more of a disinterest. But if the manga's actually supposed to be really good, I'm willing to give it a shot.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Butt Ghost posted:

It's been a while, but from what I remember, I didn't really care for the humor, and 2003 series felt a bit boring. In retrospective, I didn't watch a whole lot of Brotherhood, so maybe I should reserve judgment on that. It's not even really a strong dislike, it's more of a disinterest. But if the manga's actually supposed to be really good, I'm willing to give it a shot.

if you didn't watch much of brotherhood you only watched the weak early episodes (where they sorta cliff notes the part the first series adapted.)

read the manga

Surprisingly Dope
Jan 12, 2011

Lope burgs again


the 1st brotherhood op is good

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


yeha, the first ~10 or so episodes of brotherhood are basically just a recap of the early chapters with some weak humor thrown in.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Surprisingly Dope posted:

the 1st brotherhood op is good

They're all good

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


The fourth ending is also good. Those intro chords are the best way to end an episode.

"Behold - our immortal army!"

NEOW NEOOOOW, NEOW NEOW, NEOOOOOOOW

Bad Seafood
Dec 10, 2010

If you must blink, do it now.


Silver2195 posted:

I actually prefer Dante to Father, mainly because I don't like the idea that ultimate responsibility for the Amestris government's crimes lies with someone with fundamentally non-human motivations.
I wouldn't say Father's motivations are "Fundamentally non-human," just a bit more abstract. At base level, he's someone who's lived his whole life in containment (the greater part of it ironically by choice) who wants to break out of his bubble. That his own "Human" experience is limited is a product of his birth and circumstances.

When Ed's talking about Icarus in the first chapter, he's really describing Father.

Butt Ghost posted:

It's been a while, but from what I remember, I didn't really care for the humor, and 2003 series felt a bit boring. In retrospective, I didn't watch a whole lot of Brotherhood, so maybe I should reserve judgment on that. It's not even really a strong dislike, it's more of a disinterest. But if the manga's actually supposed to be really good, I'm willing to give it a shot.
Early Brotherhood is probably the weakest bit since the show kind of assumes you're already familiar with a lot of things covered in the original series and tries to burn through a lot of material too quickly.

I'd say to give it the two-volume test. The second volume is where the series really gets going in my opinion, but the first introduces a lot of core characters and concepts and serves as a nice contrast to later developments in the story.

Bad Seafood fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 28, 2015

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



The irony of Father is that he is fundamentally very human despite not thinking he is. He's prideful, he's wrathful, he's greedy... you get where I'm going here. He thinks himself above humanity but in the end he's mired down in it.

DoubleDonut
Oct 22, 2010




Fallen Rib

I started reading the manga when it was ending and that was cool and exciting because the last year or so of chapters were pretty fast-paced (if I remember correctly) despite being a monthly series and cool poo poo kept happening all the time

Well, that's my review of Fullmetal Alchemist

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007


Bad Seafood posted:

I wouldn't say Father's motivations are "Fundamentally non-human," just a bit more abstract. At base level, he's someone who's lived his whole life in containment (the greater part of it ironically by choice) who wants to break out of his bubble. That his own "Human" experience is limited is a product of his birth and circumstances.

When Ed's talking about Icarus in the first chapter, he's really describing Father.
Early Brotherhood is probably the weakest bit since the show kind of assumes you're already familiar with a lot of things covered in the original series and tries to burn through a lot of material too quickly.

I'd say to give it the two-volume test. The second volume is where the series really gets going in my opinion, but the first introduces a lot of core characters and concepts and serves as a nice contrast to later developments in the story.

FMA is partly about tempering knowledge/scientific progress with compassion and understanding for others and Father is all knowledge and no compassion, hence why his final fate is to be dragged back through the Gate while hysterically begging for the Truth to tell him what he did wrong. Dante was sort of weak tea in comparison.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Oxxidation posted:

FMA is partly about tempering knowledge/scientific progress with compassion and understanding for others and Father is all knowledge and no compassion, hence why his final fate is to be dragged back through the Gate while hysterically begging for the Truth to tell him what he did wrong. Dante was sort of weak tea in comparison.

I liked how Dante's plot was overall much smaller scale than Father's "become a god" and that there was no super grandiose scheme.

Lady just wanted to bodysurf for eternity

Bad Seafood
Dec 10, 2010

If you must blink, do it now.


She was prepared to expend roughly the same amount of effort as Father for a considerably more modest prize.

Not sure I'd call that a point in her favor.

Seraphic Neoman
Jul 19, 2011




I liked both the first and Brotherhood anime, never read the manga, beat Broken Angel and Crimson Elixir for the PS2 (these games loving owned hard but goddamn some bosses were hard as poo poo).

One element I enjoyed way more in the 03 anime than Brotherhood was Sloth: having Edward deal with the homunculus of his mother really put his gently caress-up into perspective. The original Sloth felt like huge letdown after that.


Ed also grows up, both physically and emotionally (look at his jacket zipper/clasp as the series goes), a detail that impresses me to this day.

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



I remember hearing all kinds of rumors of secret bosses in both Broken Angel and Crimson Elixir. Anybody know if that's true or not?

Seraphic Neoman
Jul 19, 2011




Raxivace posted:

I remember hearing all kinds of rumors of secret bosses in both Broken Angel and Crimson Elixir. Anybody know if that's true or not?

I really doubt it, both games are very linear. I guess the optional post-game fight against Armstrong and Mustang in Broken Angel counts?

There are a few bosses in Elixir where the story continues even if you lose, if they mean those.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!

I buy Steam inventories, add me if interested!




Clever Betty

Original sloth is way better than momsloth

Bad Seafood
Dec 10, 2010

If you must blink, do it now.


The manga does a better job putting Ed's sin in perspective too with the whole grave digging scene.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Bad Seafood posted:

The manga does a better job putting Ed's sin in perspective too with the whole grave digging scene.

Didn't something similar happen in the first anime too?

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Bad Seafood
Dec 10, 2010

If you must blink, do it now.


Not that I recall, but I'd think such a scene would be incompatible with the altered origins of the homunculi.

Been years since I watched the original series though, so maybe.

EDIT: I'm talking about the bit in the manga where Hohenheim asks if Ed "Really" brought his mother back and Ed digs up the grave with Pinako to check.

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