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This is the thread to discuss legendary stage/screen actor, director, writer, voiceover actor and chat-show guest Orson Welles. Welles is best known as director of Citizen Kane, The Magnificent Ambersons, Touch of Evil, The Trial and other films. He was also a great director and actor in radio productions. His later output was dogged by arguments over finance and artistic control which resulted in most of his later work not reaching the screen in the form Welles intended (and not reaching the screen at all). Many of his scripts were never shot, projects not filmed completely or not edited in a final form. This thread has been prompted by the news that Welles major project of the 1970s The Other Side of the Wind will be released on 6 May 2015. The film was never released due to financial issues but it also seems Welles had not edited it to a final form by his death in 1985. It seems like after years of working on it, Bogdanovitch and Kojar are ready to release it. Audio interview (3.5 hour) (1969-72): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LnuQZ6VD_Y TV interview (1974): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dAGcorF1Vo His legendary frozen pea advert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhWM4_pIKVg War of the Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0K4ApWl4g (courtesy of bobkatt013) Too Much Johnson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yadj2PFD_Mc (courtesy of CountFosco) (I'll add good clips and links to this OP if you suggest) Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Welles Josef K. Sourdust fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 14:41
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Man, I've been burned before by Other Side of the Wind News. I'll believe it when I see it. Like when I saw Othello restored and on the big screen. Hot drat, that was a fine piece of work. Edit: also, over budget, what the hell? What films of orson welles were over budget? From an interview with him in playboy: "False. I'm not an overspender, though I've sometimes been a delayed earner... All the pictures I've directed have been within their budgets. The only exception was a documentary about south america that I started in 1942... with 1,000,000 to spend. But it was the studio's money, not the government's and the studio fired me when I'd spent $600,000 on the basis that I was throwing money away... The studio spent a lot of dough and a lot of manpower putting it into circulation." https://books.google.com/books?id=2...%20myth&f=false Of course, that is his position. Maybe you believe the studio over Orson Welles. Kind of interesting how both Eisenstein and Welles had unfinished/unreleased films based in central/south america. CountFosco fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Mar 31, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 17:30
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Welles ran out of money often because of his way of financing as he shot, but all his studio films were on or under budget. In fact, he finished shooting Citizen Kane a week early or something. The real problems were in post production. But he got final cut on Othello, The Trial, and obviously F for Fake. I can't recommend My Lunches with Orson enough. He seemed more annoyed about Other Side's problems, but seemed hurt that F for Fake got virtually no distribution. And he even talks about Criterion's Citizen Kane laserdisc and recommended that bad movies get commentaries rather than good ones. Egbert Souse fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Mar 31, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 19:17
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Egbert Souse posted:I can't recommend My Lunches with Orson enough. He seemed more annoyed about Other Side's problems, but seemed hurt that F for Fake got virtually no distribution. And he even talks about Criterion's Citizen Kane laserdisc and recommended that bad movies get commentaries rather than good ones. I'd agree with that.
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Mar 31, 2015 19:43
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Yeah, I just read My Lunches with Orson this year and it was quite entertaining. All of Orson's interviews are delightful. Also, just in case anyone was aware, much of Welles' silent film experiment Too Much Johnson has been recovered/restored. A full link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yadj2PFD_Mc A link to the more polished, edited version can be found in the information section.
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Mar 31, 2015 19:48
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Yeah, title should have been "under financed" rather than "over budget". He talks in the long interview about how he financed Othello on money from another project and funded piecemeal. It's amazing he got any of his later projects off the ground. Long-term Welles watchers have been burned on TOSOTW. It's been announced a few times but maybe this time it will surface. 6 May 2015 is the centenary of Welles, so they've perhaps had this date in mind. My own target is getting The Trial on Blu-Ray. Anyone seen it? The French BR had a good review on DVDBeaver - a good site with an unpromising name and a chaotic layout. They compare transfers in video and sound terms and also compare features, originally DVDs but no also BRs. Worth a look for any cinephiles out there. http://www.dvdbeaver.com/
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Mar 31, 2015 20:19
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I created a thread a couple years back where I watched all Welles' directed movies, and wrote some information on the troubles he ran into. I can't remember if it was any good or not, but if anybody has archives maybe they can dig it up. I think the fact that nobody in the US has picked up "The Trial" and done a good release is really tragic. I understand it's public domain, but it still deserves some love.
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Mar 31, 2015 20:46
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:My own target is getting The Trial on Blu-Ray. Anyone seen it? The French BR had a good review on DVDBeaver - a good site with an unpromising name and a chaotic layout. They compare transfers in video and sound terms and also compare features, originally DVDs but no also BRs. Worth a look for any cinephiles out there. Wait, is that a different release from the StudioCanal one? That release got only kind of a middling review on Blu-Ray.com but the extras look really good.
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Mar 31, 2015 21:00
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Mr. Arkadin is the most fascinating Welles film to me, if only because there are freaking seven different versions of it. It's a globetrotting noir like Lady from Shanghai, and like that film I was left impressed but scratching my head as to what the hell had just happened. It's one of those films I feel like I have to see a bunch more times before I unlock all it's secrets. Of course I'm excited about The Other Side of the Wind but the real dream is finding the lost reels of The Magnificent Ambersons.
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Mar 31, 2015 21:11
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How could you not include this in the OP? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0K4ApWl4g
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Mar 31, 2015 21:24
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zandert33 posted:I created a thread a couple years back where I watched all Welles' directed movies, and wrote some information on the troubles he ran into. I can't remember if it was any good or not, but if anybody has archives maybe they can dig it up. Kino was going to release it, from what I assume a public domain source, but it was cancelled. StudioCanal owns worldwide rights, but it's not under copyright any longer here. Lionsgate has US distribution of StudioCanal releases, but they've only released 11 films on Blu-Ray since 2008. It does look like the exclusivity might be ending since Criterion was able to license the Jacques Tati films and The Vanishing from them. It could probably use a better remaster since even the French Blu-Ray could be better - it's nowhere the same quality as Citizen Kane. For that matter, it looks like Welles' filmography is slowly being upgraded with 4K restorations. Citizen Kane, The Lady from Shanghai, and Touch of Evil are already out... Othello is coming soon and it looks like Chimes at Midnight is, too.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:57
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Awesome Welles posted:Wait, is that a different release from the StudioCanal one? That release got only kind of a middling review on Blu-Ray.com but the extras look really good. No, it's the same. It just looked so much better video than the DVDs but I am sure it isn't anything like the care that has been lavished on Kane. I could hold off on the current release if any of you think there is a Criterion coming. I agree that perhaps the only drawback to public domain status of films means there is little financial incentive for firms to spend time and money producing high quality transfers.... bobkatt013 posted:How could you not include this in the OP? Consider it done! zandert33 posted:I created a thread a couple years back where I watched all Welles' directed movies, and wrote some information on the troubles he ran into. I can't remember if it was any good or not, but if anybody has archives maybe they can dig it up. If anyone could provide a link, I'd love to read.
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Apr 1, 2015 08:11
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Does anyone know why Welles was dubbed in his role in Pasolini's La Ricotta? It looks like he was speaking Italian in the scenes that I'm watching, but it's so weird hearing someone else's voice dubbed it. Is it just that Italians will dub anything at anytime for any reason?
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Apr 1, 2015 15:51
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CountFosco posted:Does anyone know why Welles was dubbed in his role in Pasolini's La Ricotta? It looks like he was speaking Italian in the scenes that I'm watching, but it's so weird hearing someone else's voice dubbed it. Is it just that Italians will dub anything at anytime for any reason? yes. i'm not kidding, that actually is pretty much the correct answer
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Apr 1, 2015 15:56
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Yeah, it's insane whenever you watch an Italian movie, and there's clearly English/American actors speaking English, yet they're dubbed anyway.
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Apr 1, 2015 16:02
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Fellini liked dubbing because his actors were just counting numbers or saying the alphabet while he screamed at them to emote more, which was then overdubbed to create A Movie.
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Apr 1, 2015 16:03
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Yeah, it's insane whenever you watch an Italian movie, and there's clearly English/American actors speaking English, yet they're dubbed anyway. the weirdest example of this for me is Fitzcarraldo, where everyone in the movie is clearly speaking English, but Herzog insists that the German dub is the true way to watch the movie. Corek posted:Fellini liked dubbing because his actors were just counting numbers or saying the alphabet while he screamed at them to emote more, which was then overdubbed to create A Movie. he also played music on the set a lot to set the rhythm of the scene. Argento did the same thing. anyway, on the subject of Orson Welles, i'll be the first to say that Chimes at Midnight is absolutely brilliant and probably my favorite of his movies, as well as the best English language Shakespeare movie I've ever seen. it also features a lot of obvious dubbing, although I think in that case it was due to budgetary constraints. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 16:49
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:anyway, on the subject of Orson Welles, i'll be the first to say that Chimes at Midnight is absolutely brilliant and probably my favorite of his movies, as well as the best English language Shakespeare movie I've ever seen. it also features a lot of obvious dubbing, although I think in that case it was due to budgetary constraints. The way Chimes at Midnight flies in the face of having a budget of like 10 bucks is unreal, you buy every second of these huge battles that just don't actually happen.
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Apr 1, 2015 16:56
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What's the best way to view Chimes of Midnight currently? It's probably the most important Welles that I have left to see.
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Apr 1, 2015 18:37
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CountFosco posted:What's the best way to view Chimes of Midnight currently? It's probably the most important Welles that I have left to see. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf6fxz1mI6g if you don't like youtube and you're near any good library networks, check there. that's how i finally saw the whole thing after seeing parts of it on VHS in a Shakespeare class in college. last i checked there are all sorts of gray market DVDs on ebay too.
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Apr 1, 2015 18:39
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Also if you get TCM, and you can wait until next month, you'll be able to catch it there during their Welles marathon month. http://www.tcm.com/schedule/monthly.html?tz=est&sdate=2015-5-01
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Apr 2, 2015 01:56
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What do y'all make of The Immortal Story? It's the only Welles film I have no idea how to feel about.HP Hovercraft posted:Mr. Arkadin is the most fascinating Welles film to me, if only because there are freaking seven different versions of it. It's a globetrotting noir like Lady from Shanghai, and like that film I was left impressed but scratching my head as to what the hell had just happened. It's one of those films I feel like I have to see a bunch more times before I unlock all it's secrets. The Mr. Arkadin production is really bizarre. There's seven different cuts of the movie, but they feature different editing, some even have different actors, slightly different plot points etc. Let's not forget the novel based on one of the original scripts. Welles claims he has no idea who wrote the novel version (It was written in FRENCH originally too!), though I think it's generally agreed that Maurice Bessy probably wrote it. It was anonymously translated into English though, of course. Also one of the producers of the movie version murdered a guy apparently. The whole production of Mr. Arkadin sounds like the plot of a loving Orson Welles film.
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Apr 11, 2015 06:43
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Bumping this thread (shame on you all) to post this amazing panel discussion on Hamlet with Orson Welles, Peter O'Toole, and two other people of no real consequence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smMa38CZCSU
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May 3, 2015 21:28
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So an Indiegogo project has been launched to help get The Other Side of the Wind finally finished. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/other-side-of-the-wind-orson-welles-last-film
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May 7, 2015 06:43
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Raxivace posted:So an Indiegogo project has been launched to help get The Other Side of the Wind finally finished. I'm surprised that Criterion didn't have interest in the project. I have concern that something like this just isn't going to get a hug amount of hype for a campaign.
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May 7, 2015 14:27
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zandert33 posted:I'm surprised that Criterion didn't have interest in the project. I have concern that something like this just isn't going to get a hug amount of hype for a campaign. They probably can't front all $2 million given that's 1/3 of their annual revenue.
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May 7, 2015 14:42
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Egbert Souse posted:They probably can't front all $2 million given that's 1/3 of their annual revenue. Technically whoever is getting the money from this campaign isn't getting $2 million, they have to fulfill the physical goods, plus indie go go gets a cut, the amount they'd get would be quite a bit less. On top of that Criterion wouldn't have to "pay" somebody else to do the scanning, they'd handle it with their own resources which is sure to be cheaper. I do understand your point though.
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May 7, 2015 15:21
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Just so everyone knows the Third Man will be returning to the cinema on June 26 and they will be using the new 4k transfer.
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May 7, 2015 15:25
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My local indie theater has been showing Orson Welles films all month and I saw Touch of Evil for the first time last night. That opening tracking shot was amazing, it still looks incredibly fresh. Poor Janet Leigh, such bad luck with motels.
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May 22, 2015 21:39
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Just as a reminder, there's still a few days left to donate to finishing Welles' The Other Side of the Wind, and seeing it finally get released. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/finish-orson-welles-last-film#/story
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Jul 3, 2015 01:39
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Yeah, it's insane whenever you watch an Italian movie, and there's clearly English/American actors speaking English, yet they're dubbed anyway.
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Jul 3, 2015 10:12
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Brief review of MAGICIAN, a new documentary about Welles: http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jul/05/magician-life-work-orson-welles-documentary-review-mark-kermode
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Jul 5, 2015 13:22
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Recent opinion piece discussing conflicting view on Welles's career: http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/theres-nothing-tragic-about-orson-welles/17273#.VcUaD_ldU5k
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Aug 7, 2015 22:09
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Recent opinion piece discussing conflicting view on Welles's career: From the article: "But, for all the handwringing from modern film reviewers, Welles was far from a tragic figure. He may have had a rough time in Hollywood, but he made the films he wanted to make and managed to make great things out of very little. " But he didn't, that's the whole point. There are only a few times he was able to make the films he wanted, and he had to scrape to get the funding to make them.
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Aug 7, 2015 23:17
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zandert33 posted:But he didn't, that's the whole point. There are only a few times he was able to make the films he wanted, and he had to scrape to get the funding to make them.  Also you could argue that as he didn't get final cut of many movies, did he actually get to make what he wanted? I mean he "made" them but how they turned out was not the way he wanted to have them.E: Spiked has a reputation for be contrarian. I think this is an occasion where the prevailing view (Welles was hampered by politics and funding problems and never fulfilled his true potential) is actually true and not worth arguing against - unless you have some overlooked evidence or a radically new view of what Welles was trying to do. Josef K. Sourdust fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Aug 8, 2015 |
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Aug 8, 2015 19:26
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Even something like the 1998 cut of Touch of Evil is hard to call Welles' original vision since the changes he suggested in his famous 58-page memo were about improving the studio's cut of the film, and not about reverse-engineering that cut back into Welles' own workprint of the movie, which I believe is now lost. And of course Welles himself wasn't around to administer these edits, though Universal could have asked Welles for input when they actually DID administer some of his suggested changes in a somewhat forgotten edit of the film they made in the 1970's. Welles' authorial intent is incredibly difficult to discern, even in a case like Touch of Evil. And as convoluted as it is, it's got nothing on the production of Mr. Arkadin.
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Aug 8, 2015 20:25
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Raxivace posted:Even something like the 1998 cut of Touch of Evil is hard to call Welles' original vision since the changes he suggested in his famous 58-page memo were about improving the studio's cut of the film, and not about reverse-engineering that cut back into Welles' own workprint of the movie, which I believe is now lost. And of course Welles himself wasn't around to administer these edits, though Universal could have asked Welles for input when they actually DID administer some of his suggested changes in a somewhat forgotten edit of the film they made in the 1970's. If I recall, Welles wasn't initially present for the editing of Touch of Evil, hence why another director was brought in for the reshoots. Welles saw the initial cut and wrote his memo based on that. I think the preview print found in the 1970s was pretty much what Welles had based his memo on. The theatrical cut actually used some of Welles' suggestions, so there's parts of that cut more faithful than the preview version. Yet, the preview cut is the only surviving source of the records hall scene (which was shot in Universal's actual paper records room!) More reason why it's great that Universal opted to include all three cuts on DVD and Blu-Ray since there's not really one authentic version.
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Aug 8, 2015 23:14
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So editing on The Other Side of the Wind has still yet to start, it seems. http://www.wellesnet.com/the-other-side-of-the-wind-the-year-in-review/
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Oct 29, 2015 18:51
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Raxivace posted:So editing on The Other Side of the Wind has still yet to start, it seems. The whole thing is screwed... and now they have the added insult of having taken people's money to get nothing done. Everybody involved sucks.
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Oct 30, 2015 14:33
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Raxivace posted:So editing on The Other Side of the Wind has still yet to start, it seems. Yeah, that seriously sucks. PB said it was just about finished ten or twenty years ago. It seems to be getting less finished. Man, seems like a Borgesian fantasy where the artist's last work becomes steadily unmade by his admirers....
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Nov 4, 2015 23:56
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