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Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Joe Slowboat posted:

I feel that's somewhat unfair to liches.

The line is clear, to be a lich is to have removed an important part of your humanity (your mortality), but that's not inherently wrong. There are perfectly unproblematic liches! They're just more fragile and less powerful than the ones willing to exploit the souls and lives of the vulnerable, or make a deal with the Abyss, and so on.

The problem is that there is power in exploitation - the Seers know it, the Tremere know it, any mage can figure it out. For mages, it's not that transhumanism is evil, it's that it's a secondary question and it's easier to transform yourself into an immortal by ripping out other people's souls than really any other method.

Also the only canonical individual portrait of an Ascended Master (other than the Exarchs, under Atlantean doctrine, who are special cases) I'm aware of, the Corpus Author, isn't a monster at all. She's a bit retiring, but has intervened on behalf of her Order in various ways, and the Mysterium is a Pentacle Order. And the Ascended are to Archmages what Archmages are to everyone else.

She's not the only canonical one.

There are three (three!) examples of Archmasters who achieved Ascension in the setting;

The Progenitor, former Minister of Hegemony who created the Hive-Souls and was rewarded with eternal existence as a lesser Exarch under the Unity. Quite self-evidently not a good person.

The Corpus Author, who - yes, sure, she made the Mysterium. She did it by welding the "knowledge is the sole valuable resource" Order, who *were* the faction in the Diamond responsible for promoting mundane learning among Sleepers, to the "Sleepers are scum that magic flees from" apocalyptic weirdo Order. Aethenea stopped being somewhere mages would store things like crop rotation manuals and examples of engineering in case Sleeper society forgot them, and the Mysterium is the most anti-Sleeper Pentacle Order. She got her way, but she left a gaping hole in magical society it took centuries to fill. And that's if you believe the Free Council now fill it.

Screw the Corpus Author. The Keepers of the Word were doing just fine.

And, lastly, Merlin. We know the Author and the Progenitor's Orders, and can guess at their former Paths, but Myrddin Emrys is the Ascended archmaster the Pentacle know the most about - he was Welsh, he was a Silver Ladder Acanthus, he created the Walkers in Mists Legacy. He also used his archmastery to link the land's Fate to its king's and deliberately caused the destruction of Camelot to seal his Noumenon. He got away scott-free, everyone else had their timeline retconned by the Exarchs. He killed the Aeons of Fate doing it, so that they reformed as Mordred. Even now, if anyone with Arthurian cabal symbolism gets a little too close to leadership, there's a chance Nimue (an Ananke, that Merlin created) will show up to wreck their poo poo, because he programmed her to destroy Camelot and hosed off to the Supernal after the deed was done.

The Silver Ladder, naturally, thinks Merlin was aces.

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Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Joe Slowboat posted:

E: well, I guess I've been told.

You're assuming that "Ascended" equals "Ascended Archmaster". It doesn't. There's lots of ways to Ascend - as many as there are people who've managed it - and *most* mages who escape reality for good are... Fine. You catch whispers of them in the Supernal World, come across a Verge generated by their Sarira, hear a rumor about a mage three Consilia over who was so Wise he transcended.

Archmasters ascend by deciding what great change they want to inflict on the universe and breaking it until it falls in line. Their way is the most certain (it's proven to work in a minority of cases, given luck and deftness in the Pax Arcanum) but one of the most selfish.

Humanity's natural position isn't servitude, but Gnosis has to be in balance with Wisdom or you gently caress it up for yourself and everyone else. And mages are predisposed away from that balance.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Ferrinus posted:

I can’t help but notice that despite the Corpus Author’s machinations, mankind has not forgotten how to do crop rotation. We should by no means allow this rank editorializing to confuse our picture of the Mysterium and Diamond as a whole.

Who knows what else got locked away from the Keeper's Vaults?

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Rubix Squid posted:

What books are these from?

The Progenitor’s from Seers of the Throne

The Corpus Author’s from Mysterium and Imperial Mysteries

Merlin’s from the 1e core book, Tome of the Watchtowers, Silver Ladder, Imperial Mysteries, Left Hand Path and the 2e corebook.

They’re all just tiny passing mentions. All three are mentioned again in Signs of Sorcery.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Joe Slowboat posted:

I will say, I don't know which supplement has the panoply of a dead Exarch?

Reign of the Exarchs.

And as - for the time being - Mage's dev, I will note that my chronicle did end, Invisibles-style, with an immamentized echaton.

The sample Ascended archmasters are morally dubious, sure, but Aaliyah isn't. There's lots of upstanding mages.

Mage is about getting what you want, and how many people you're willing to throw under the bus to do it.

Sure was nice to work on Geist, though, where the revolution is possible.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


MonsieurChoc posted:

I'm asking because my post got me thinking about playing a dual-Order Silver Ladder/Free Council character.

Not that I'll ever get to play the game.

Yes, you can, and yes, you qualify for both the Order signiature Merits. You only get one set of rote skills, though.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Warthur posted:

Yeah, I'm reminded of the parable of the factory workers who think they are making baby cots but when they try to make a cot of their own by taking a component from each assembly line and putting them together they end up with a machine gun.

Does it shine through with Demon and Promethean?

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Warthur posted:

(Pssst, Dave: people are giving you a lifeline to say that the overall problems with Beast were not the collective responsibility of all the writers on the project, but primarily the responsibility of Matt as its overseer. If you want us to believe that it's not wholly Matt's fault how Beast turned out, that's not helping OPP or its freelancers. Not even slightly.)

Here's the thing. I wrote the Lair rules in Beast, cited a few pages ago as one of the few salvageable pieces (so hey, thanks for that!) but the bit about how Beasts side with the True Fae sometimes? That was also me. Because I understood Beasts to be self-deluded monsters.

Then the rest of the loving book comes in painting them as good guys, and it looks really dodgy.

I'm not particularly interested in making excuses for or helping OPP. They're grown men and women who make their own decisions.

Yeah, Matt's role was minimal - and as Liv says, that was the problem; he should have realised how horrid the assembled product was. OPP shouldn't have made him rewrite it during the Kickstarter (I would have pulled it and brought it back later). He should have had a much clearer vision of the game before writing started.

Beast is the unique chimeric horror that results from a bunch of enthusiastic newbies writing CofD like it's a LGBTQ-metaphor supers setting, pressured old timers writing awful monsters, and a Dev who didn't have it in him to blend the two or provide the leadership needed.

Deviant spent years in pre-writing. I designed it down to the game mechanic dice pools before hiring anyone. Mage has a writer's bible longer than some of its published sourcebooks. That kind of obsessive prework makes me chronically late, and it's *not incentivised*.

My personal view of Beast, from the inside, is that Matt phoned it in, had to react when the kickstarter went bad, and didn't understand people's problem with it when he rewrote it on the fly .. It is a clusterfuck.

But use Matt's alleged crimes as a means of not copping to when I played a part it in? gently caress that. I should have tried to steer the new writers, even without the authority to do it. I should have paid more attention to the emerging tone.

OPP *has* learned lessons from this. Deviant had, like, triple the gateways of approval to go through and it's not entered development yet. Nowadays, new writers *are* organised in teams under senior writers, so if, say, I was doing the core template I'd have a formal way to tell the Merits author what to do.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


MonsieurChoc posted:

God I want to read that Mage writer's bible.

When I step down, I'm gonna see about putting it in the Storyteller's Vault, the way Rose did with hers for Requiem

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


1994 Toyota Celica posted:

who was responsible for the storytelling chapter of Mage 2E

Me. I was its Developer. :D

(I do not identify writers unless they have told me its okay, for reasons that should be really obvious)

It was a victim of wordcount. We had barely any room for it, and I had a list of ten things and space for three. Every Mage book in process has more ST advixe than normal as compensation, and if the upcoming Vampire Guide to the Night does well, it might get a dedicated book.

Hang on. Didn't I explain this recently? Was that here? What day is it?

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Archonex posted:

Yeah. Those are good and they probably should have been in the core.

Props to which ever author fixed that particular part of the line.


On another note, I always figured souls weren't quite as interchangeable as lines like Mage suggests. In vampire it's heavily suggested that eating a soul can literally change your personality to include/outright overwrite it with the person that was being eaten. And I distinctly recall some other really notable soul hijinks in both that line, the Geist line, and the 1e book detailing the Underworld that suggested that it's essentially that person's character traits or self to some variable extent.

Then again, it wouldn't be the first time a mage was wrong about something. :shrug:

It has effects, just not game-mechanical ones. We don't have a persistent Condition for "your favorite food has changed"

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


AnEdgelord posted:

Isn't the entire mummy game line a giant middle finger to this concept? Like the entire premise of Duat and the Judges is diametrically opposed to the mage understanding of souls.

Duat is a Lower Depth, and mummies the Judge's ambulatory feeding appendages for Sekhem.

So... No, not really.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


BENGHAZI 2 posted:

I'm interested in the vampire one, what's it called

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/261142/BITE-ME-How-to-Write-Vampire

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Elswyyr posted:

I just read Broken Diamond and enjoyed it a lot, but I've got some questions about the setting, and whether that's all homebrew, or stuff that was changed by later editions of Mage. Two biggest ones revolve around a major spoiler, so I'll just tag that.

Were the Exarchs originally not named, and did they have different favored Arcana? It was pretty weird to see Shiva as an Exarch, and explicitly being an ascended Mastigos throwing Mind and Space around.

Not so much “changed” as “not revealed”: we played that game until the fall of 2007, iirc, and the first Order book came out right as it was ending. I got my freelancing gig off the back of it, wrote Seers about a year later, and *that’s* where the Exarchs were first named.

I put a couple of winks to it into Signs of Sorcery, actually. I based a short section about Seer reward Artifavts around the plot devices in Reign of the Exarchs, and “the Destroyer” and “the Rani” are in the list of lesser Exarchs other than the Iron Seals.

Basically, Broken Diamond was run pre-Seers, pre-Astral Realms, pre-Summoners (there’s a plot point about how mages can’t summon supernal entities in it!) etc

Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Feb 18, 2019

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


nofather posted:

Are there going to be any second edition actual plays?

Broken Diamond and Soul Cage (and the Man Comes Around) helped me get a handle on mage and, I'm sure, really helped boost the popularity of the game.

Not from me. TMcA ran for about twice as long as got recapped, and then one of the players had a stroke. For various reasons we’ve not all managed to get in a room to play for a year.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Crasical posted:

I recently had a woof player get introduced to the concept of Sin Eaters and even had a nearby NPC comment 'Isn't that the same as being Claimed?' and just brushed it off as 'not a spirit, not my problem.'

Which, while technically correct, In retrospect that probably should have been a breaking point for him just on the grounds that through the werewolf lense of the world that particular phenomenon should be more than a little concerning.

Also RE: vampires accepting beasts: as much as it's implied that if you're a night-stalking blood-drinker you eventually undergo genetic drift and become one of the Kindred (All vampire-shaped things eventually become weird bloodline or clans), I think that accepting beasts might be too far just because of the shakeup Vampire Society would undergo having to cope with non-ghouled non-blood-bonded folks who can walk under the sun without exploding.

During some between-games chat we followed a hypothetical through to its logical conclusion and ended up with permanently invisible, sunlight-immune cyborg vampires, and decided that if it got out that the Ordo had created such a thing it'd cause a civil war.

It's not the same as being Claimed. It's an entirely different Manifestation.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Soonmot posted:

Mage Question as I try to get ready for the game: Rote Spells have 5 free reach and get bonus dice based on the rote skill rating? So if my rote skill is 4, I'd roll 4 extra dice?

EDIT: Also what was wrong with that spell casting webpage posted earlier? I think Dave said something was off?

Rote spells work Reach out as though you were a Master, which is not 5 free Reach except for 1dot spells.

IIRC (on phone, can't see) there was something hinky in its spell factor descriptions.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Quick question -- a friend of mine was curious who the lead designer on Geist 2E was, and I'm pretty sure I remember them posting here, but I couldn't remember exactly who it was (or their actual name vs. my vague guess from among the OPP employees / freelancers who post here). I thought I'd check the backer preview, but it doesn't include any credits. Can anyone point me to that information? Or maybe would like to take the credit? :v:

Travis Stout, in this thread as Gimpinblack

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Crasical posted:

I have no idea if this is still (or ever was) the case but I thought that one of the two 'morality bars' for Deviants was specifically how well you were managing maintaining your personal codes of honor and integrity, my assumption being that you could temper your need for revenge with a code of conduct and achieve something closer to justice than pure vengeance.

No, Deviant's twin Integrity bars are "people you're loyal to" and "people on your poo poo list", so the game can precisely track how many friends your rip-roaring rampage of revenge costs you, and you can flip friends who betray you (or who you think have betrayed you) into Enemies.

It is not an optimistic supers game. It's about wallowing in justified anger until it poisons you.

(I may have been in a dark place when I broke ground on a lot of Deviant's stuff. It is pretty much "Dave just cut everyone who voted Leave out of his life and oh, look, WW just hired ZakS: the rpg")

You can achieve a state of temporary Golconda-like respite from your Scars by getting Loyalty higher than Conviction, but it produces a state of "I will defend this neighbourhood/group of people/insert obsession here to the death whether they like it or not". A bit more supers-ish, but on the Matt Murdock end of supers.

Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Mar 1, 2019

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


I mean, the poo poo my Requiem group get up to regularly. There’s a reason my character yo-yos between Humanity 3 and 4. We’re awful monsters.

But that’s okay. The problem comes when people expecting Ascension try to play Awakening and don’t get the “mages are shitbirds” memo. Or, worse, when the game downplays it like Beast did.

Deviant is very clear that the Remade are broken monsters who don’t have appropriate responses to stress any more.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Cav wasn't a test bed - its system is all its own.

I think it's a case of Cav being owned by Rose's company and just published by OPP, same way they publish the Pugsteady games. But Eddy (who owns Pugsteady) is still one of OPP's inhouse devs, and Rose (who owns Cavaliers) isn't.

More Cav books are coming. I just don't know when

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


DtD style demons did show up a few times before the game was written - there's one in Midnight Roads, for example - but the CofD is a deliberately broad church that resists efforts to make everything about a splat.

For example, the Men in Black. Not the oWoD's version of then, the creepy, obviously-not-human disturbing things that turn hp on the doorstep of people who've seen UFOs and intimidate them.

They're in the CofD. Black-Eyed Children (another favorite urban legend) are also in CofD and established as their juvenile form.

They are not connected to any splat. No one knows what they are. It doesn't matter.


Are some alien abductions CtL Fae encounters? Are some of them Astral breeches, or Spirits?

Sure!

But some of them are, you know, Aliens. And it does not break the setting for them to be so.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Where does the idea that they're missing an Arcanum, specifically, come from? It sounds Imperial Mysteries-ish but I'm not positive.

Fanon.

(The four Canon Lower Depths - Anwwn, Duat, Inferno, and the Strix’s homeworld - are all lacking *something*, but in none of them is it as simple as one single Arcanum)

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The God-Machine is also very likely the victim of that time manipulation bullshit, in that Great Mountain is one the concept/god refugees that got kicked out of heaven when the Exarchs did their thing, causing it to steadily degrade from a symbol into a purely physical thing.

e: It's just that it managed to thrive, unlike the other Pangaeans who turned into physical horrors instead of spirits and, consequently, mostly got merked by mortals.

Great Mountain was not meant to be the God-Machine, we were initially surprised some fans decided it looked like it was, and one of my fears is that some newbie writer will come along in five years and write as though it was always meant to be the God-Machine.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Joe Slowboat posted:

Good to know - I thought Summoners specifically has a number of canon Lower Depths entities, including cargo cult plane things, which are significantly simpler in their lack? I remember the plane things as lacking Life, specifically, and being described as such.

There’s a couple of entities; you’re thinking of the Decay, I believe, in which case it’s not quite as simple as “it lacks the Life Arcanum”. But those are the known realms I have declared mages declare to be Depths.

(There’s the Tutor, too, the thing Paternoster keep chained up in a Chantry somewhere that makes Hollow Ones. It’s from an unknown depth and eats... The human sense of self? personality?)

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


joylessdivision posted:

At a guess maybe the Dark Eras stuff.

Dark Eras 1: Pangaens (the inhabitants of the Border Marches) who didn’t get crushed when their world turned into the Gauntlet got pushed into the physical or Shadow world and turned into flesh or spirit. The fleshly ones being the ancestors of the things out of Werewolf’s early 1e books like Predators; sometimes you just come across a mile-long worm-thing sleeping under the mountains while you’re mining for Platinum in the nWoD.

But mostly, their descendants are things like Beshilu and Azlu.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


PHIZ KALIFA posted:

is this really something we should be encouraging in people

In a CofD game? Yes. it’s sort of the point, and I look down on the games that lose sight of the fact that their protagonists are monsters.

If that gets too heavy, play something else. Or conciously work against it.

Deviant’s tone - which, I must emphasise, was my doing - is part of why I’ve stepped down from it, as it was affecting my mood getting myself into that headspace for devving. I would rather hand the game over to someone else than see it watered down.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Crasical posted:

Good to know I'm held in contempt...?

Not people that play them. The games themselves. As a paying customer, it is your right and privilege to do whatever you like. I do, when I run things! It’s when it drifts into the writing for games that we get thematically confused lines.

I get the desire for optimistic games, I really do. That’s why I’m off to write other things.

Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Mar 18, 2019

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:

Mummy as I experienced it was really weird because it seemed like there was exactly one modern day chronicle you could run, which had a time limit, and then you're done and it's period flashbacks or nothing. That isn't necessarily bad, but it was odd and I would really like to see the process of losing power and gaining memory drawn out a bit more so you could fit more stuff into a modern game with a single group of mummies. As I recall it felt like you'd get maybe a few months of actively doing stuff before you were too weak to function. I'd prefer the arc were more like Promethean, which also has a set end-point to aspire to but it's slower so there's a lot to do before you get there.

On average, it's actually about two years. Can be much, much longer.

I thought the thing about Mummy 2e, where Duat is so divorced from Time that Mummies wake up out of chronological sequence so you can have, say, characters spend xp in the modern day then keep those raised traits in an "earlier" tier, was spoken about at GenCon? Certainly, I'd heard it, and I'm not working on the game.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


jakodee posted:

People trying to apply mage cosmology to other lines in anything other than a mage game are the sort of people I’m pretty sure I’d despise personally if I ever were to meet them in person. Like it’s not that I just wouldn’t play an rpg with you, I’m pretty sure I couldn’t stand your personality.

Uh, my dude, I came up with that setting, Developed it, and it’s a Mage setting.

That Chris, who wrote it, is a huge werewolf nerd and I think thinks of it as a werewolf setting just means it’s one of the vanishingly few crossovers that are thematically balanced.

Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Mar 30, 2019

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Part of the reason I don’t get on with the oWoD revivals (never been much interested in x20) is that I already have all the oWoD books I care to have, and they don’t add enough that’s new.

So Sundered World adds to both Werewolf and Mage’s backstories. Isn’t that the whole loving point of doing a Dark Era? I’m trying to imagine devving or writing a book for any CofD game that doesn’t tell the reader anything they didn’t already know, and it’s a soul-crushing prospect.

Edit; yes, I’m aware that there’s some Dark Eras that really are just a brief history of a period you can get from Wikipedia and a few stated characters, but those are the poo poo ones.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


I believe that was retconned early on to be "they out number the Forsaken *In America*"

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Dawgstar posted:

I've been reading Rose Bailey's 'Bite Me: How To Write Vampire' and it's really, really good.

It’s basically the writer’s bible for 2e Requiem, minus the prototypes for what ended up as some of its mechanics. I first read that thing in a series of hospital waiting rooms while my dad was dying, in prep for working on the game.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Digital Osmosis posted:

:same:

also,


sorry to dogpile, especially since you're feeling attacked, but I thought this was a comment that might clarify things. I don't think anyone would disagree with the first clause of your sentence, that the Orders are flawed. Where people seem to be disagreeing is that the existence of their flaws means they aren't intended to be the good guys of the setting.

I do think you have a strong point about the inclusion of the Seers in 2E core. If playing a Seer, or a mixed Seer-Pentacle group, is really intended by the designers than yeah, they're functionally saying there isn't any difference between the Pentacle and the Seers, that mages are just mystery junkies and that political difference of opinion various mage groups have are basically irrelevant. I just don't think this is the case - I think the inclusion of the Seers next to the Pentacle in 2E was basically to display their organization and their ideals (which I think the text still judges as worse than the Pentacles) clearly to new players. It's totally true that 2E also moves more towards "mysteries!!! mysteries everywhere!!!!" but I see that as being a (great) new arena of conflict rather than replacing the old core conflict of Seers vs. Pentacle. Like how when the Stryx show up in a VtR campaign it changes things... but it doesn't mean the Invictus and the Carthians aren't still going to be at each other's throats, or that the core metaphor of Vampire becomes about a community under siege or whatever.

I think I understand your point, I hope you understand mine, and I'm sorry you feel attacked.

We put the Seers in the corebook because we’d had the examples of 1) people complaining that Belial’s Brood were “erased” because Rose only had room for the normal covenants and VII in Vampire and 2) people complaining that the Pure weren’t in Werewolf.

They’ve got a splat writeup in 1e, too. They’re an Order. Why wouldn’t we put them in?

It is true that we like to raise flaws with the Pentacle Orders, but it’s in the context of a morally-grey world of darkness where everyone falls short. The Pentacle aren’t 100% good guys because mages -> hubris and obsession, but they’re still the *best* guys in Awakening’s world.

Put it this way - we talk about the flaws in the Pentacle as notes of realism and examples of how individuals or groups can fall short of their ideals. We talk about the very vanishingly few good sides to the Seers - that they defend humanity from existential threats, that they can paradoxically have really high Wisdom because they’re the Order that advocates minimum force - in the same breath.

A high-wisdom Seer devoted to keeping the seals of an Armageddon-causing Bound intact is just as aberrant within his Order as a genocide-advocating Iconoclast in the Mysterium. They both fall within their Orders’ umbrellas and make the setting less.. Pat... by their presence.

Or even more simply, the Pentacle have good intentions and often gently caress up, the Seers have bad intentions and sometimes do good as a side effect.

I am completely uninterested in uncomplicated good guys and bad guys in Mage. Even the Tremere are more right about some things than the other Orders (they have a lot of missing pieces of cosmological understanding buried away in the insanity and soul-devouring) and every Scelestus has a reason she turned to the Abyss.

If you want heroes vs cosmic bad guys, you can play Pentacle mages who live up to their organization’s goals, it you might be happier with Geist or Changeling.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Ironslave posted:

The Eye's the most fun because they're simultaneously the most-pervasive, the least-direct, and exert influence simply by watching. Their cult was around for god-knows-how-long before the Seers even formed because the nature of their patron and her powers made keeping in contact easy, and I'm left wondering what they got up to for all that time before they joined with the other tyrants. The General and the Unity are runner-ups due to how frustratingly hard it is to not invoke their own symbols to try and oppose them.

I'm hoping we get some more info on the extinct Geryon Ministry come the release of Signs of Sorcery, just because I'm curious what they looked like as a Greater Ministry.

Geryon are mentioned in Signs along with a whole pile of extra Ministries, but their proper writeup is in Dark Eras 2.

They were the Ministry of “you are being oppressed by a group you know who have secret membership, and you know it’s members are among you”; everything from suspecting but not knowing who was under the hoods of the local Klan, to protesters thinking they were infiltrated by undercover cops, to people not knowing which of their neighbours were informing on them.

When they fell, Panopticon ate up most of their real estate.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


I believe so, yes.

They were named way before my time - the 1e signature Scelestus, Angrboda, fell to the Abyss in order to murder the last Geryon Pylon. No one can be expected to have remembered this.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


The captivity still happened - the Tremere captured and experimented on several soul-damaging monsters, which gradually ended up corrupting them until the roles were reversed, until they broke free again in their modern-day not-quite-the-same-Mage-Template state, replacing Gnosis with Hollow.

One of the things Tremere believe is that the Paths are artificial limitations imposed by the Watchtowers, which they don’t see as benevolent. The thing about other Reapers is that the Tremere both dislike threats to their food supply, want to absorb the knowledge of mages who deal with souls, and truly despise non-Mage monsters that injure them. Reaper Legacies that they target end up as Houses (the Tremere equivalent of Legacies).

They’ve come a long way from when the big three were originally designed to literally be post-Judgement sequel games to the oWoD. When Awakening was “Ascension 2” they would have been the oTremere, the vampire clan, having turned themselves back into mages in the crossover. NTremere have been given a lot of development in their backstory and beliefs, but that “mages who used to be vampires” thing - the Captivity - remains.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Ironslave posted:

Wait what? The nWoD lines were going to have been direct continuations? Glad that didn't stick.

For a brief period before the opportunities of a clean slate sunk in, yeah.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


PantsOptional posted:

That’s wild. Can you provide any other examples of stuff that was supposed to carry over from oWoD?

So, the big one in proto-Awakening is that it had the Traditions, the Technocracy, and a group consisting of the Virtual Adepts and Sons of Ether, and that when members shed their paradigms by raising the power stat they were inducted into the next level of the Diamond, Seers, and Free Council, with the Oracles and Exarchs as the rumored next level above *that*.

So where Ascension vaccilates about the line where the Technocracy stop believing their schtick and admit thay they're mages, proto-Awakening had the Seers as the conspiracy of high-Arete mages inside the Technocracy. And the same with the Traditions and Orders.

This was considered wildly overcomplicated, gutted from the game, and replaced by Atlantis.

But echoes of it remain, as despite the VAs and SOEs being culled their order remained kinda seperate. And the Seers still have that air of Technocrats without the self-delusion.

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Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


nofather posted:

I remember hearing once that originally they were going to be a mini-template that would go along with Contagion. But someone liked them so much they got promoted up to game-of-their-own.

This is not true. Contagion wasn't a thing when Beast was being made - at the time, it was still The Crossover Chronicle, and Matt was still in charge of it.

Beast's core concept was a Dragon game Matt pitched, that was expanded to have Dragons as just one of its splats when moved on.

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