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AdorableStar
Jul 13, 2013

:patriot:


What happens when someone starts a relationship and the other party is someone who wants to have kids someday (Not adoption) and is hoping for a life-long relationship? They might not express it at first, but later on isn't it just heartbreaking?

e: I dunno, my opinion is that by keeping your trans status a secret, you will find people who will: Be comfy with it, may become comfy with it, will never be comfy with it, will need something you as a trans person can not provide. By telling them who you are at the start of relationship, you will only find the first two.

AdorableStar fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Apr 27, 2015

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Tumblr of scotch
Mar 13, 2006

Please, don't be my neighbor.

AdorableStar posted:

What happens when someone starts a relationship and the other party is someone who wants to have kids someday (Not adoption) and is hoping for a life-long relationship? They might not express it at first, but later on isn't it just heartbreaking?

e: I dunno, my opinion is that by keeping your trans status a secret, you will find people who will: Be comfy with it, may become comfy with it, will never be comfy with it, will need something you as a trans person can not provide. By telling them who you are at the start of relationship, you will only find the first two.
So should infertile cis people tell their partners on the first date? What about cis people who just don't want kids?

DeadlyMuffin
Jul 3, 2007


AdorableStar posted:

What happens when someone starts a relationship and the other party is someone who wants to have kids someday (Not adoption) and is hoping for a life-long relationship? They might not express it at first, but later on isn't it just heartbreaking?

Do you bring up something like infertility when you chat someone up at a bar? I'd be a bit put off if the first thing a guy told me is that he's shooting blanks.

There's a huge difference between never disclosing, disclosing after a few dates, and disclosing first thing.

I've found after a few dates to be the sweet spot. Telling someone first thing is incredibly off putting, and if they don't know me at all the reaction is almost universally negative. After 1-2 dates I have some idea how it'll go, and they have an idea of who I am. If I tell them at that point I'm must more likely to be the interesting girl who is trans rather than the trans girl with no other background. I've tried both.

That's the idea anyway. The reality is that dating as a trans person is hard, and often incredibly depressing. There's nothing quite like seeing attraction on someone's face go to disgust (or worse) in a matter of seconds.

I've given a lot of thought to simply never disclosing, but despite it all I don't think I want to be with someone I need to keep that a secret from. I'm not there yet anyway.

The worst for me was a guy I dated for 3-4 years, who knew the whole time, broke up with me in part because he couldn't see a long term thing happening with a trans woman. It made me want to crawl into a deep dark hole and never come out.

Edit: I spel gud

DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 27, 2015

AdorableStar
Jul 13, 2013

:patriot:


Flagrant Abuse posted:

So should infertile cis people tell their partners on the first date? What about cis people who just don't want kids?

Yeah, I didn't think of it like that.

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

Flagrant Abuse posted:

So should infertile cis people tell their partners on the first date? What about cis people who just don't want kids?

They still deserve to know the gender of whomever they're dating.

DeadlyMuffin
Jul 3, 2007


Boiled Water posted:

They still deserve to know the gender of whomever they're dating.

Trans women are women, and trans men are men. Gender isn't really the issue, it's the person's past and medical history that we're discussing.

As long as we're working from the same basic premise I think the discussion can be meaningful, but if your stance is that trans women are actually men in disguise then we're just going to talk past each other.

AdorableStar
Jul 13, 2013

:patriot:


DeadlyMuffin posted:

As long as we're working from the same basic premise I think the discussion can be meaningful, but if your stance is that trans women are actually men in disguise then we're just going to talk past each other.

I think that's like, something that's just going to keep changing from person to person no matter how much of a conversation you have or how long time goes on and now I'm not going to touch this topic anymore with a 10 ft pole.

Good night, all. :tipshat:

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014

Flagrant Abuse posted:

So should infertile cis people tell their partners on the first date?

Let's be honest here. A lot of infertile people don't know it until they are trying to have kids and can't.

Tumblr of scotch
Mar 13, 2006

Please, don't be my neighbor.

spacetoaster posted:

Let's be honest here. A lot of infertile people don't know it until they are trying to have kids and can't.
Let's be honest here. It's plainly obvious that I'm talking about infertile people who know they're infertile.

Aleph Null
Jun 10, 2008

You look very stressed
Tortured By Flan

crime posted:

I was just trying to get a feel for what Transgender people think/feel when they go about actually changing their gender. I've little to no interest in the politics of it, but rather the psychological elements of someone who thinks they are the wrong gender.

I went from being clinically depressed and hating myself and my body for over 30 years to being happy and able to genuinely smile for the first time in my life.

Strategic Tea
Sep 1, 2012

DeadlyMuffin posted:

Trans women are women, and trans men are men. Gender isn't really the issue, it's the person's past and medical history that we're discussing.

As long as we're working from the same basic premise I think the discussion can be meaningful, but if your stance is that trans women are actually men in disguise then we're just going to talk past each other.

I'm going to be the awful cis scumbag who points out that gender transitions aren't a perfected science yet.

(For some people, there's no getting around someone having a dick :shrug:)

Old Man Pants
Nov 22, 2010

Strippers are people too!

Strategic Tea posted:

I'm going to be the awful cis scumbag who points out that gender transitions aren't a perfected science yet.

(For some people, there's no getting around someone having a dick :shrug:)

Neither are Breast Implants. People still get them every day though. I've seen some fantastic pairs, some that I never would have guessed they were fake, and some that were just horrible. Personally as a cis straight guy, I'd want to know after a few dates just so I could make an informed decision and who knows, maybe I'd like them enough to give it a shot, but I don't think anyone should be forced into leading their conversation with a list of surgeries they've had and their families medical history.

Aleph Null
Jun 10, 2008

You look very stressed
Tortured By Flan
Some people are penis-sexual, some are vagina-sexual, and some are fine with either. It's okay.

elphiemcdork
Jan 13, 2008

The risk of coming out as trans - particularly for trans women - is so huge that many trans women don't feel safe coming out to someone unless they're sure they're not going to get beaten, murdered or similar when they do. This fear of "Oh my god I'm dating a chick with a dick she tricked me she's trying to make me gay!" is a very dangerous situation for a trans woman to be in. And it's why a lot of trans women I know just do not feel safe dating. So to say that a trans woman needs to disclose to you ASAP doesn't really take into account the fact that she might be worried about being murdered for doing it.

I guess it's true to say some people prefer a specific set of genitals but having been on the partner-side for 12 years, you learn that it's the person you become attracted to, not their gender or whatever happens to be going on between their legs. I would say that if anyone becomes attracted to a trans person and then finds out that their genitals were not what they were expecting, perhaps the person needs to think about their priorities. If they can't get over the fact their boyfriend has a vagina then, well, that's their loss I guess. But trans people aren't tricking you by not telling you what goes on in their underwear.

EDIT: Also we live in a world where it would be hugely difficult for a straight man to be open about the fact he was dating a trans woman. And possibly even more dangerous for the trans woman if her partner's friends were weird about it and decided they wanted to beat the crap out of her.

elphiemcdork fucked around with this message at 11:55 on May 18, 2015

surc
Aug 17, 2004

elphiemcdork posted:

I guess it's true to say some people prefer a specific set of genitals but having been on the partner-side for 12 years, you learn that it's the person you become attracted to, not their gender or whatever happens to be going on between their legs. I would say that if anyone becomes attracted to a trans person and then finds out that their genitals were not what they were expecting, perhaps the person needs to think about their priorities. If they can't get over the fact their boyfriend has a vagina then, well, that's their loss I guess..

Right? I mean, as a cis man in a relationship with a woman, if a man can't get over the fact that their boyfriend has the physical characteristics of a woman, perhaps the person needs to think about their priorities. :rolleyes:

(You're insulting people for being different than you by implying that their decisions are lesser, in a post discussing people who have problems for being different from other people. Obviously the context is totally different, but the inherent mindset is still in use. If they're not taking violent/derogatory action towards trans people as their response, their choices are just as valid. You've softened the tone to make it seem like "they're not really bad, just so mistaken...." but it's still the same mindset. Don't be an rear end in a top hat.)


I deleted the rest of your post from my quote because yes I understand that it impacts what I'm responding to due to the context and fear of violence that is a real threat, I don't disagree with your overall point, and think that is important for people to realize is a real consideration and not dismiss. That type of violence is so insanely sickening. I didn't want to get it mixed up with what I was taking issue with, which is:
A lot of times people defend people suffering from a symptom of bigotry --in this case, transphobia-- while actively participating in the mindset of bigotry. I mean, you can do that, but at that point you're perpetuating the problem of the mindset, effectively trying to take up the mantle of 'the oppressor' to escape being 'the oppressed'. Which makes you into an rear end in a top hat.

Tumblr of scotch
Mar 13, 2006

Please, don't be my neighbor.

elphiemcdork posted:

EDIT: Also we live in a world where it would be hugely difficult for a straight man to be open about the fact he was dating a trans woman. And possibly even more dangerous for the trans woman if her partner's friends were weird about it and decided they wanted to beat the crap out of her.
For a prime example, some people get murdered just for dating a trans woman.

elphiemcdork
Jan 13, 2008

surc posted:

Right? I mean, as a cis man in a relationship with a woman, if a man can't get over the fact that their boyfriend has the physical characteristics of a woman, perhaps the person needs to think about their priorities. :rolleyes:

(You're insulting people for being different than you by implying that their decisions are lesser, in a post discussing people who have problems for being different from other people. Obviously the context is totally different, but the inherent mindset is still in use. If they're not taking violent/derogatory action towards trans people as their response, their choices are just as valid. You've softened the tone to make it seem like "they're not really bad, just so mistaken...." but it's still the same mindset. Don't be an rear end in a top hat.)


I'm a biiiit confused about what point you're making but I'll try and work it out...

Firstly, the supposed boyfriend won't have the physical characteristics of a woman. Because they're your BOYfriend. But they might have a vagina. And possibly some boobs too, who knows. But if you suggest to your boyfriend that they have the physical characteristics of a woman they may not stay your boyfriend for much longer.

I think you're saying that the decision of someone not to date someone when they find out they're trans is a valid choice. It is, of course, people stop being in relationships for a multitude of reasons. But I think it's very difficult to put a hard and fast rule on it. "If I was dating a woman and I found out she was trans I would stop dating her" is a very cut and dry thing to say. There are so many variables in play. I go from my own experiences - I'm a gay woman, and I'm married to a trans man. I am not straight, I am not attracted to "men" in general but my partner was presenting as female when we got together and when he came out as trans I decided I still wanted to be with him. As has been pointed out a couple of times in the thread already, there are situations where that would be a very dangerous thing to do (and I'm massively lucky that I'm not in that situation) but knowing if you'd want to be with a trans person is 100% depending on their relationship. To rule out *ever* being with a trans person because they might have different genitals than you expect is quite simplistic - I'm not saying that's the argument you were making, but it's the argument many people do make.

The threat of losing a relationship and the pressure of having to "come out" to a potential partner (and not know what their reaction might be) is a very big reason a lot of trans people find partners on the internet where it's a safer place.

ashgromnies
Jun 19, 2004

elphiemcdork posted:

To rule out *ever* being with a trans person because they might have different genitals than you expect is quite simplistic - I'm not saying that's the argument you were making, but it's the argument many people do make.

It's simple but I don't think I'd call it simplistic: some people are not sexually interested in certain genitals. For example, some men enjoy having sex with women and a surprise penis throws a wrench in that. Does it even work correctly after taking hormones? Is it reasonable to expect someone who has never engaged with that set of genitals, commonly associated with a gender they don't date, to suddenly be interested in working with them just because someone they could date has them? It sounds easier to find someone else to date with the expected genitals for the gender than to try to force yourself to be sexually attracted to something you never have been.



edit: lol I just noticed the part of your post where you said boobs and vaginas are not physical characteristics of women. Are you trolling?

ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 13:42 on May 20, 2015

elphiemcdork
Jan 13, 2008

ashgromnies posted:

edit: lol I just noticed the part of your post where you said boobs and vaginas are not physical characteristics of women. Are you trolling?

I have a husband. He is male. His birth certificate says male. He has a vagina. He is not a woman. So men have vaginas sometimes. And he used to have boobs too (although they're gone now). And that's not even getting into people who identify as male but don't wish to have gender reassignment surgery. Surgery is costly, both physically, emotionally and financially. Some people don't have the means to do it, some people don't want to do it. Doesn't make them any less male. So I would argue that boobs and vaginas can be physical characteristic of both men and women - I certainly know men and women with various combinations of sexual organs.

And while I agree that some people aren't attracted to some genitals, How do you know what genitals a person has until you ask or they tell you? You may know a trans person already, they may not have told you they are trans and they may have different genitals to the ones you were expecting. Again, this is why a lot of trans people prefer to meet people online, so they can have these conversations without having to deal with doing it face to face. It may well be easier to date someone with the genitals you expect but it depends how invested you are in the relationship with that person. As I said, each situation is different, and you never know what happens until you're in it. I never expected to be married to a man, yet here I am.

buckets of buckets
Apr 8, 2012

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the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless

elphiemcdork posted:

I have a husband. He is male. His birth certificate says male. He has a vagina. He is not a woman. So men have vaginas sometimes.

Men explictly do not have vaginas

Guy DeBorgore
Apr 6, 1994

Catnip is the opiate of the masses
Soiled Meat
Joke's on you transphobes, you've been banging men this whole time and you didn't realize it because of your superficial fixation on boobs and vaginas.

elphiemcdork
Jan 13, 2008

Tautologicus posted:

Men explictly do not have vaginas

I can literally (not literally, but you get my drift) show you one that does.

Edit: Saying they don't puts you into a "trans men are really women" camp which is not particularly helpful in a discussion about transgender culture. Trans culture involves challenging that fact that only women have vaginas.

Jeza
Feb 13, 2011

The cries of the dead are terrible indeed; you should try not to hear them.

elphiemcdork posted:

I can literally (not literally, but you get my drift) show you one that does.

Edit: Saying they don't puts you into a "trans men are really women" camp which is not particularly helpful in a discussion about transgender culture. Trans culture involves challenging that fact that only women have vaginas.

There is no way in hell anybody is going to succeed in supplanting primary sexual characteristics as the primary identifier of sex. Maybe one day in transutopia, people will swap genders like clothes and we'll all get along in some greasy orgy of non-denominational incomprehensible flesh pressing, but doctors will still pick up babies with vaginas and say "It's a girl!". The important part is that said girl can swap to boy or mystery box gender if and when they want to and nobody will care.

The <0.1% are not going to completely overhaul the status quo for the 99.9%. Human beings naturally pigeonhole, and it's a vitally important psychological component of how we get along in life.

elphiemcdork
Jan 13, 2008

Jeza posted:

Human beings naturally pigeonhole, and it's a vitally important psychological component of how we get along in life.

They do, and it's something trans activists are trying to stop. Because it then leads into the "not really a woman/not really a man" argument which is the basis for groups such as TERFs (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists). Also I think there's an element of internalised homophobia on the part of men re. trans women being "chicks with dicks" and "tricking" them into actually being with a "man". There's a lot of fear round that (like I said before, both for the trans person and their potential partner) and it's that fear that gets people killed. Internalised homophobia is a dangerous thing. That's different, however, from choosing not to be with someone because they're trans. That's up to the individual but the fear and hatred element is dangerous.

Anyway, this isn't the place to debate gender essentialism (besides, "debating" what trans people identify as is not a debate cis people should get to control), if it's trans culture you want to know more about I'd suggest Stone Butch Blues (depressing but teaches a lot about gender fluidity) and like someone else suggested, Boys Don't Cry (also depressing!). And all the stuff I said before about the world being a dangerous place for trans people and there being huge risks to them when being "out" as trans (e.g. being killed for it). Other than that the best way to learn about trans culture is to find some trans people to talk to. They'll give you a much better idea about being trans than I can. Twitter is a good place to start. Also learn that you do not get to debate a trans person on whether they have the right to exist and what they should identify as, so don't do that. Be respectful and understand they know more about it than you do.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!
If vaginas are not exclusively female, why do MtF trans people usually want to have one? Why bother with wearing women's clothes if clothes with gender binary embedded in them are just a cultural construct. So is language that prescribes certain pronouns to certain genders. Maybe genders and sexes don't exist at all...

the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless
Human civilization has spent thousands of years attempting to define "what it means to be a man", from ideals and personal qualities to deeds, service to others, and accomplishments and overcoming personal obstacles. Etc, etc etc. Suddenly within 20 years that should all be forgotten in favor of a theory of gender that says "you should identify with what you feel inside (that day)"? So bogus. Inflicting weakness and triviality on as many people as possible because a few can't get it together?

This is only possible in periods of no adversity or struggle. People's only struggles in the US right now are against frictional forces of resistance outside of their sight or control, and so they go slightly mad and go genderbending. IMO

You think all these trans people existed undercover during the frontier period? I doubt it.

It's fine to live your life the way you want to live (I guess), but don't go inflicting it on everyone else. Fortunately I only see it on the internet or if I go looking for it since culture in the US is so fragmented.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011

Tautologicus posted:

You think all these trans people existed undercover during the frontier period? I doubt it.

I assume you mean the 1700-1800s? Because there are known people who lived their lives as the opposite physical sex during those time periods. Now whether or not they were transgender by today's definition is up for debate, since they're long dead, but people living as a man or woman when they were assigned the opposite at birth have been around for a long while.

the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless

AngryRobotsInc posted:

I assume you mean the 1700-1800s? Because there are known people who lived their lives as the opposite physical sex during those time periods. Now whether or not they were transgender by today's definition is up for debate, since they're long dead, but people living as a man or woman when they were assigned the opposite at birth have been around for a long while.

Sure, but now it's a thing, with groups and activism and rhetoric and everything else. I simply do not believe all these people now were just a hidden group throughout history that are only coming to the surface now. not even saying that it's a new thing either, but gender bending and the malleability of gender is not any more of a fact of life than rigid gender roles are. They both have their time and place in a sociey. The time and place right now just happens to be all kinds of confused and hosed up, looking for direction and some measure of stability to the order of things. It's a shakeup period.

Basically, stop forcing people to accept ideas that are intellectually on their face ridiculous as a prerequisite to conversing with them. The ideas themselves are not totally worked out yet. Women are men, and men are women? You go with what you feel, but also you could feel like you were another gender at birth? You can have no gender at all? You feel compelled to cut off your dick and balls and that should be OK?? It's not even getting into the people within these sitatuations, just basically the dry intellectual content is on its face very difficult to accept, unless you feel forced to accept it, because you either can't refute it or don't want to rock the boat. I can't refute it, per se, but the alternative is not "therefore accept". Why can't I stay on the fence?

Why can't someone say "you know, I just don't know about all this transexual business" and not be shouted out and called a phobic of some human sexual thing or another?

I think that should be allowed. I thought tolerance was the order of the day. That includes tolerance of non-acceptance. I was making another point before this one but I forgot it, and the vehemence of the LGBTQIAxxxxxx activism is really what's more bothersome than any of the details. "Of COURSE we are right...we FEEL this way!!"

surc
Aug 17, 2004

elphiemcdork posted:

I'm a biiiit confused about what point you're making but I'll try and work it out...

Firstly, the supposed boyfriend won't have the physical characteristics of a woman. Because they're your BOYfriend. But they might have a vagina. And possibly some boobs too, who knows. But if you suggest to your boyfriend that they have the physical characteristics of a woman they may not stay your boyfriend for much longer.

I think you're saying that the decision of someone not to date someone when they find out they're trans is a valid choice. It is, of course, people stop being in relationships for a multitude of reasons. But I think it's very difficult to put a hard and fast rule on it. "If I was dating a woman and I found out she was trans I would stop dating her" is a very cut and dry thing to say. There are so many variables in play. I go from my own experiences - I'm a gay woman, and I'm married to a trans man. I am not straight, I am not attracted to "men" in general but my partner was presenting as female when we got together and when he came out as trans I decided I still wanted to be with him. As has been pointed out a couple of times in the thread already, there are situations where that would be a very dangerous thing to do (and I'm massively lucky that I'm not in that situation) but knowing if you'd want to be with a trans person is 100% depending on their relationship. To rule out *ever* being with a trans person because they might have different genitals than you expect is quite simplistic - I'm not saying that's the argument you were making, but it's the argument many people do make.

The threat of losing a relationship and the pressure of having to "come out" to a potential partner (and not know what their reaction might be) is a very big reason a lot of trans people find partners on the internet where it's a safer place.

My point is that you were referring to other people's choices as less valid than yours (which you almost didn't even imply, just straight up said), because they are made for reasons you would not make them. You are making posts which are basically in defense of people being judged as having made less valid choices because they are made for reasons other people would not make/do not understand. In short, my point was that you, personally, were being a hypocrite and an rear end in a top hat while making these posts. It doesn't actually have anything to do with your points about trans culture, I largely agree, and totally understand that the situation is different when you're an rear end in a top hat vs when somebody is physically assaulted, or feels the threat of feeling physical assault. I'm just saying, don't be a hypocrite, don't be an rear end in a top hat.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011

It's a thing with groups and activism and rhetoric and all that because on average a trans individual is murdered every three days or so. Because living in fear sucks. Because they're constantly being thrown under the bus by the rest of the alphabet soup that is the queer community.

Sure, the Tumblr side of things gets ridiculous, but malleable gender roles have been a part of human society for as long as humans have had society. Throwing it all out because some people are stupid about it causes more harm than anything else.

It's not easy to transition. The people who actually do have to go through a lot of bullshit to get there. The Tumblr lot can actively change what they want to be day by day because they don't have to go through the whole process of therapy, living as a man or woman for a set period of time, hormones, court paperwork for name changes and sex changes, and everything else that goes with it.

ashgromnies
Jun 19, 2004

Paladinus posted:

If vaginas are not exclusively female, why do MtF trans people usually want to have one? Why bother with wearing women's clothes if clothes with gender binary embedded in them are just a cultural construct. So is language that prescribes certain pronouns to certain genders. Maybe genders and sexes don't exist at all...

Yeah, that's the thing that trips me up most about trying to understand. If sex and gender are reduced to cultural norms, then where does the dysphoria fit in, if there is no biological essence of sex or gender? Wouldn't that mean being trans shouldn't exist as a thing if gender is just a meaningless construct?

Keeshhound
Jan 14, 2010

Mad Duck Swagger

Tautologicus posted:

Sure, but now it's a thing, with groups and activism and rhetoric and everything else. I simply do not believe all these people now were just a hidden group throughout history that are only coming to the surface now. not even saying that it's a new thing either, but gender bending and the malleability of gender is not any more of a fact of life than rigid gender roles are. They both have their time and place in a sociey. The time and place right now just happens to be all kinds of confused and hosed up, looking for direction and some measure of stability to the order of things. It's a shakeup period.

You're right about one thing. They weren't hidden.

The Greeks (and later Romans) had a hermaphrodite deity.

Sardanapalus was an Assyrian king (and hedonist) who dressed in women's clothing.

And the first transgender riots in the United states occurred in 1966. You know; a few years after the Cuban Missile Crisis. Does that qualify as a "period of no adversity or struggle?"

Questions of gender identity have been around pretty much as long as the idea of gender existed, and I'm sure new ones will be raised once we've answered the current ones to our satisfaction.

Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 20:41 on May 20, 2015

the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless

Keeshhound posted:

You're right about one thing. They weren't hidden.

The Greeks (and later Romans) had a hermaphrodite deity.

Sardanapalus[/ur] was an Assyrian king (and hedonist) who dressed in women's clothing.

And the first transgender riots in the United states [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_transgenderism_in_the_United_States#1950s_and_1960s]occurred in 1966
. You know; a few years after the Cuban Missile Crisis. Does that qualify as a "period of no adversity or struggle?"

Questions of gender identity have been around pretty much as long as the idea of gender existed, and I'm sure new ones will be raised once we've answered the current ones to our satisfaction.

Sure and there's plenty of corrupt Roman emperors who dressed in women's clothing and hosed their mothers/sisters too. And a hermaphrodite deity is as old as time, nearly every religion on earth has a similar concept of man being split into male and female on earth, while God is both male and female.

AngryRobotsInc
Aug 2, 2011

More US times of adversity and struggle!

Albert Cashier was a soldier in the Union Army. Just one of some 200 some odd known soldiers in the Civil War, on either side, that were born female. While many of them returned to living as women after they were found out, or after the war ended, several went on to continue their lives as men in the eyes of the public, of which Albert was one.

Tumblr of scotch
Mar 13, 2006

Please, don't be my neighbor.
Tautologicus please tell me more about how you know more about this subject than the whole of modern psychology, I'm eager to hear why people should listen to you and not actual experts.

SleepyK
May 21, 2008

Flagrant Abuse posted:

Tautologicus please tell me more about how you know more about this subject than the whole of modern psychology, I'm eager to hear why people should listen to you and not actual experts.

From extensive research he found that the origins of LGBTQIAxxxxx activism came as a result from a prolonged period of no adversity or struggle. The ideas are ridiculous and he wishes that the internet would stop calling him a LGBTQIAxxxxxphobe.

Tumblr of scotch
Mar 13, 2006

Please, don't be my neighbor.
Also lol at trotting out the "you should be tolerant of intolerance!!!" line in 2015.

the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless

Flagrant Abuse posted:

Tautologicus please tell me more about how you know more about this subject than the whole of modern psychology, I'm eager to hear why people should listen to you and not actual experts.

I mean I can tell from the start that you're kind of an idiot but I'll pretend you're a thinking person. What we're doing here is not dickwaving our easily quantifiable knowledge and seeing who has the "most knowledges" and determining them the winner. So, no, I don't know "more about this subject" than the "whole of modern psychology", since the whole of modern psychology is what determines what is psychological knowledge and what is not in the first place. Yes, my opinions are outside of modern psychology. No, I don't care. I'm saying what I think, on an internet forum, and waiting to see what people say in response. To think I either need to be right, or need to be agreed with is falling into the same trap that dug this particular line of thinking on gender into the hole that it did. It's fascist in its thought and its behavior, shutting out any nonbelievers with verbal violence. But it has less of the self assuredness and confidence that the actual fascist movement had; it's really all smoke and mirrors as far as I can see.

Which leads me to:

Why doesn't someone address Ashgromnie's question? Note that I didn't say answer, because there probably isn't an answer. It's thinking that led itself directly into an unresolvable bind. Trying to intellectualize the feelings of a marauding psyche will do that to you, especially when all the other lost people of the world want to follow along and claim wild things about their self-identity and gender.

But isn't that the whole of the issue? I notice everyone is trying to steer as far away as possible from the actual questions in this thread. Actually let's not pretend anymore that they're "just questions, maan". They're challenges. Make your ideology make sense. Give it form. Resolve its contradictions. Give people a reason to accept your thinking, except on fascist godless faith.

My theories on why transgender people exist en masse is just speculation, and I admit it. The problem is you won't admit your ideas on what sex and gender are at this point in time are the same thing. You're shoving these conceptions down people's throats as hard fact and reality, and getting frustrated (dare I say...butthurt) when anyone pushes back on any of it, except to fawn over how complicated and persecuted trans people (and their allies...!) are.

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Captain Bravo
Feb 16, 2011

An Emergency Shitpost
has been deployed...

...but experts warn it is
just a drop in the ocean.
I get the feeling that several posters in this thread don't understand the difference between "Sex" and "Gender".

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