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elphiemcdork posted:I have a husband. He is male. His birth certificate says male. He has a vagina. He is not a woman. So men have vaginas sometimes. Men explictly do not have vaginas
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May 20, 2015 15:31
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Human civilization has spent thousands of years attempting to define "what it means to be a man", from ideals and personal qualities to deeds, service to others, and accomplishments and overcoming personal obstacles. Etc, etc etc. Suddenly within 20 years that should all be forgotten in favor of a theory of gender that says "you should identify with what you feel inside (that day)"? So bogus. Inflicting weakness and triviality on as many people as possible because a few can't get it together? This is only possible in periods of no adversity or struggle. People's only struggles in the US right now are against frictional forces of resistance outside of their sight or control, and so they go slightly mad and go genderbending. IMO You think all these trans people existed undercover during the frontier period? I doubt it. It's fine to live your life the way you want to live (I guess), but don't go inflicting it on everyone else. Fortunately I only see it on the internet or if I go looking for it since culture in the US is so fragmented.
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May 20, 2015 16:27
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AngryRobotsInc posted:I assume you mean the 1700-1800s? Because there are known people who lived their lives as the opposite physical sex during those time periods. Now whether or not they were transgender by today's definition is up for debate, since they're long dead, but people living as a man or woman when they were assigned the opposite at birth have been around for a long while. Sure, but now it's a thing, with groups and activism and rhetoric and everything else. I simply do not believe all these people now were just a hidden group throughout history that are only coming to the surface now. not even saying that it's a new thing either, but gender bending and the malleability of gender is not any more of a fact of life than rigid gender roles are. They both have their time and place in a sociey. The time and place right now just happens to be all kinds of confused and hosed up, looking for direction and some measure of stability to the order of things. It's a shakeup period. Basically, stop forcing people to accept ideas that are intellectually on their face ridiculous as a prerequisite to conversing with them. The ideas themselves are not totally worked out yet. Women are men, and men are women? You go with what you feel, but also you could feel like you were another gender at birth? You can have no gender at all? You feel compelled to cut off your dick and balls and that should be OK?? It's not even getting into the people within these sitatuations, just basically the dry intellectual content is on its face very difficult to accept, unless you feel forced to accept it, because you either can't refute it or don't want to rock the boat. I can't refute it, per se, but the alternative is not "therefore accept". Why can't I stay on the fence? Why can't someone say "you know, I just don't know about all this transexual business" and not be shouted out and called a phobic of some human sexual thing or another? I think that should be allowed. I thought tolerance was the order of the day. That includes tolerance of non-acceptance. I was making another point before this one but I forgot it, and the vehemence of the LGBTQIAxxxxxx activism is really what's more bothersome than any of the details. "Of COURSE we are right...we FEEL this way!!"
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May 20, 2015 16:55
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Keeshhound posted:You're right about one thing. They weren't hidden. Sure and there's plenty of corrupt Roman emperors who dressed in women's clothing and hosed their mothers/sisters too. And a hermaphrodite deity is as old as time, nearly every religion on earth has a similar concept of man being split into male and female on earth, while God is both male and female.
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May 20, 2015 20:38
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Flagrant Abuse posted:Tautologicus please tell me more about how you know more about this subject than the whole of modern psychology, I'm eager to hear why people should listen to you and not actual experts. I mean I can tell from the start that you're kind of an idiot but I'll pretend you're a thinking person. What we're doing here is not dickwaving our easily quantifiable knowledge and seeing who has the "most knowledges" and determining them the winner. So, no, I don't know "more about this subject" than the "whole of modern psychology", since the whole of modern psychology is what determines what is psychological knowledge and what is not in the first place. Yes, my opinions are outside of modern psychology. No, I don't care. I'm saying what I think, on an internet forum, and waiting to see what people say in response. To think I either need to be right, or need to be agreed with is falling into the same trap that dug this particular line of thinking on gender into the hole that it did. It's fascist in its thought and its behavior, shutting out any nonbelievers with verbal violence. But it has less of the self assuredness and confidence that the actual fascist movement had; it's really all smoke and mirrors as far as I can see. Which leads me to: Why doesn't someone address Ashgromnie's question? Note that I didn't say answer, because there probably isn't an answer. It's thinking that led itself directly into an unresolvable bind. Trying to intellectualize the feelings of a marauding psyche will do that to you, especially when all the other lost people of the world want to follow along and claim wild things about their self-identity and gender. But isn't that the whole of the issue? I notice everyone is trying to steer as far away as possible from the actual questions in this thread. Actually let's not pretend anymore that they're "just questions, maan". They're challenges. Make your ideology make sense. Give it form. Resolve its contradictions. Give people a reason to accept your thinking, except on fascist godless faith. My theories on why transgender people exist en masse is just speculation, and I admit it. The problem is you won't admit your ideas on what sex and gender are at this point in time are the same thing. You're shoving these conceptions down people's throats as hard fact and reality, and getting frustrated (dare I say...butthurt) when anyone pushes back on any of it, except to fawn over how complicated and persecuted trans people (and their allies...!) are.
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May 20, 2015 21:47
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Captain Bravo posted:I get the feeling that several posters in this thread don't understand the difference between "Sex" and "Gender". A hypothetical trans person's sex is male at birth. However they believe they are female. Do they personally believe their sex or their gender is female? Is it other's responsibility to accept that their sex or their gender is female? If they believe that their gender is female, is that due to social conditioning? If they were conditioned to be male, have they overcome their conditioning? Or did the conditioning not affect them because of some essentialism? In what way? In this case, I've generally read that this person would believe that they have a "female brain in a male body". Is the male body evidence of their sex and the female brain their gender? If that female brain is not assumed to be socially constructed, and assumed to be the way they were born, what are the characteristics of that femaleness? When someone says "I feel female but everyone thinks I am male", what do they mean by that? In what way? What if the answers given are commonly societally conditioned female gender characteristics? What are we all supposed to accept about transgendered people?
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May 21, 2015 00:03
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Series DD Funding posted:Sex is physical characteristics. Gender is an oppressive caste system. If a person who is told they are male believes they are female, are they now willfully oppressing themselves in the opposite way?
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May 21, 2015 00:07
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AngryRobotsInc posted:It's not something easily explained. Why do you feel that you are what you are? It's the same for someone who is transgendered. OK, aside from the effects of any discrimination you might have endured, what do you think you have done differently in your life as someone who feels as if they are male and not female? Does it come down to body image? Or also to thought, feeling and action?
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May 21, 2015 00:38
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AngryRobotsInc posted:It comes down to my body and how I view myself, pretty much entirely. I'm actually fairly effeminate in a lot of ways with how I act and behave, and the activities I enjoy. The actions I make, and the feelings I have are those of a man because that's what I am. A man who was born male doing those things isn't any less of a man, either. So not only do you look female, you act effeminate? What makes you a man then? You're a man because you are, and your actions and thoughts are that of a man because they are your thoughts and actions? I'm the one with tautology in my user name.....
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May 21, 2015 01:04
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Who said I look female? Alright, I didn't read closely or just assumed. So you dress like a man. Anyway I am more interested in what you consider to be masculine thoughts feelings and actions. I happen to believe that men and women are different and think and act differently to a degree so I just wanted to know. But I don't really have to get into it any further if you aren't feeling very introspective right now.
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May 21, 2015 01:59
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Woolie Wool posted:(also Tautologicus, go read some basic 101 Wikipedia-level stuff on transgenderism and don't come back until you've finished) Basic Wikipedia level stuff does not have an answer to my above questions Saeku posted:How are trans people "inflicting" anything on you, if the only time you notice transgenderism is when you go looking for it?
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May 21, 2015 09:41
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Woolie Wool posted:If it doesn't, it will point out that your question is stupid. Which question is stupid and why I had a whole post of actual questions a few posts up. What's your contribution to the thread I actually took a queer theory class once. I left more confused about the lay of the land than i did when i went in. That's not a good thing
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May 22, 2015 01:01
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Bitter Mushroom posted:These questions stink of wrongthink Lay out the rightthink please
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May 22, 2015 01:04
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Don't bother
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May 22, 2015 04:55
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I rarely see anything I would go as far as to call introspection in any transgender thread or article. I rarely see much introspection elsewhere either, but the indignancy in this thread that I ought to understand without any of that offered introspection is very curious to me. Also, reading up, I don't have the power from where I am sitting to "deny someone their self-identity". And you chose to answer all my rhetorical questions rather than the direct ones for some reason. And many other things that probably aren't worth saying the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 05:33 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 05:27
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twodot posted:You're the one who wanted to know which of your questions are stupid and why, it's not my fault you asked so many stupid questions that I got tired of explaining why your questions are stupid (I addressed them in order). I specifically included an invitation to call attention to questions I missed in case you thought that you asked a defensible question I didn't address, but you declined for reasons unstated. I didn't because i don't think you are qualified or capable of answering them. Thanks for your effort up now i guess, if it was the best you could do.
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May 22, 2015 06:29
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I mean you could literally look 6 or 7 posts up and see my actual questions, or we could do this song and dance routine ad infinitum. Doesn't matter to me at this point since I don't see anyone with enough self-awareness in here to give any interesting enough answers to what I asked, besides the people asking questions similar to mine.
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May 22, 2015 07:33
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theseTautologicus posted:A hypothetical trans person's sex is male at birth. However they believe they are female. Do they personally believe their sex or their gender is female? Is it other's responsibility to accept that their sex or their gender is female? twodot posted:I addressed eight of your questions that were unambiguously stupid. Why is it so hard for you to identify which of your questions are not stupid? I wasn't even cherry-picking, I went in the order that you posted. Zzzzzx
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May 22, 2015 07:37
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Or reply to literally any ashgromnie post, who for the record is not in agreement with me on any single thing in the history of knowledge, this just happens to be a wild coincidence. This is only so you feel like youre doing something. Personally i havent found your input valuable because you have misconstrued several key points about my posts that i don't care to go into, because i doubt you have the ability or interest to understand what i am going to say, not that it's difficult, just that you're obstinately ideological and reactive towards no end. I'm a decent judge of e-character at this point. But if you press me i will the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 07:43 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 07:40
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I'm getting the faint impression that you're not giving those questions the attention that they require
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May 22, 2015 07:48
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I mean I assume they're human beings, I am just trying to understand what the hell they're doing with their lives. I don't feel totally apart from it either, as someone with both male and female qualities imo. But i don't wear panties or want to cut off my dick and balls to make a point, and i realized early on that the important qualities of the genders are inside, not outside. So I want to hear from others about those inner qualities that so clearly make them the gender other than what their body indicates.
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May 22, 2015 07:54
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twodot posted:I'm getting a strong impression that you're doing a really bad job of trying to gish gallop because you're out of your depth, and you can't distinguish easy to answer questions with hard to answer questions. Are you a primary English speaker? Yes I am, and good thing you bring that up now because the phrase you're looking for is "make a distinction between" not distinguish, which implies trying to see a quality about something else other than from your own thought or action, rather than something you yourself have said or done. I don't need to distinguish if I am the one asking the questions. I am asking about the distinction between sex and gender which you totally glossed over in your almost-answers. Try again??
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May 22, 2015 07:59
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twodot posted:This is somewhat reasonable, but surely you realize that zero of your questions were seeking such an understanding? All of them were, in the sense that they were asking for clarification on a seemingly contradictory almost-ideology that is the structure in which people attempt to articulate their inner experience for some reason. Many other people in this thread have pointed this out (edit - the contradictions; everyone loves a good ideology, or Weltanschauung in german is more accurate for what im talking about) the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 09:39 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 08:00
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Captain Bravo posted:Tautologicus, I admire your masterclass trolling skills, but I wish you'd use your power for good. I'm getting to it. They just need to listen
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May 22, 2015 08:04
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twodot posted:You so far haven't asked a question about sex and gender, but I'll lay down the truth. Words are words. Different people mean different things when using different words. I personally think it's useful to think of sex as physical characteristics, and gender as cultural norms, but others have other definitions. Actually i asked multiple questions about it. You even quoted them. What is going on here?
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May 22, 2015 08:05
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My overall point is, if you stopped attempting to articulate your inner experience to others in a barely coherent ideology, and instead attempted to use your own words and phrases 100% of the time, you'd feel better and freer and wouldn't have to lash out at people as much for not understanding, because you could be more confident that your words reflected your reality. Hopefully you can see how I got to this point from my posts. But there are a few things that maybe I didn't make clear enough.
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May 22, 2015 08:08
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twodot posted:And the reason why you posted this instead of quoting the answer I gave which was apparently insufficient is? (I know it's because you're an idiot, but I'm curious what excuse you'll come up with) I asked a "is it this or this" question, and you answered with "yes", that's the short answer. I had followup questions for either answer you gave but I wasn't prepared for a yes.
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May 22, 2015 08:11
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twodot posted:And the reason why you can't quote that exchange is? I'm on my phone and since it was the core question of this whole exchange you ought to be able to remember if you have any investment at all in this lil talk. The (first) question again was, if a transexual, assumed to be born male but thinks they are female, says they are female, are they asserting that their sex or their gender is female? I think your answer is gender but that is....problematic if you also say gender is primarily social conditioning.
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May 22, 2015 08:18
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twodot posted:Ah, I see, you don't understand how the word "or" works. In English "or" can either mean exclusive or, or logical or. Assuming you meant logical or, "Yes" is a totally appropriate answer. If you meant exclusive the answer is dependent on your (edit: and their) definition of sex and gender as I explained earlier, which anyone with even a basic education would understand. Hey anybody reading this, does anyone accept this answer? I can't. Sex and gender have standard definitions. The point of scientific definitions is that they are standard. No one gets to choose their definition, because then words lose all meaning. Especially when someone is being indignant about their ideology questioned and can suddenly say "well that's just my definition!" Suddenly you get the sense that you're flailing at shadows.
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May 22, 2015 08:27
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So basically "gender is a social construct" is either a tautology, because it's not asserting anything that's not already in the definition, or when it is said people are just mindlessly repeating the existing definition, and its not an attempt at a new connection? How hosed.
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May 22, 2015 08:34
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twodot posted:This is something a child would say. Everyone defines words for themselves. It's socially useful to accept certain definitions of certain words, but you can't possibly claim to possess authoritative definitions of words without explicitly defining them. This is very bad. Most of discussion is agreeing or attempting to agree on definitions. Ok - Sex - your chromosomes and physical characteristics Gender - what a culture thinks a male or female body should do and what a male or female mind should think Good enough to start from?
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May 22, 2015 08:37
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twodot posted:All definitions are tautology. How dumb can one person be? They aren't the first time they're said. And if no one agrees on what has been said, they're still not.
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May 22, 2015 08:38
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There are no axioms in linguistic communication wtf All speech is relational
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May 22, 2015 08:44
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twodot posted:I'm pretty convinced you aren't a primary English speaker at this point. What's english got to do with it? We're talking about any and all language at this point. You can only make your axiomatic claims within mathematics and then Godel and a couple of other dudes would want a word with you. Circling around the toilet bowl we go..sorry readers.
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May 22, 2015 08:52
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Anyway answer the question on whether a transgender person thinks their sex or their gender is wrong and how This is not aimed at the transgender person themselves but at the gender theory that people bolster their indignancy with.
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May 22, 2015 08:59
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It's k, take a couple days to think about it. I'll be around. Cya thread
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May 22, 2015 09:28
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Jeza posted:We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, Same
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May 22, 2015 09:29
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jneen posted:confused cis people itt But the trans people have it all figured out for sure.
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May 24, 2015 19:47
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Whorelord posted:holy poo poo that's a hosed up opinion he just might not believe what he is saying
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Jun 2, 2015 16:02
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Functional, maybe, but the aesthetics are still wrong, something is still just a little bit off. And having genitals be a little bit off is a really strange thing to experience. These people are fooling themselves.
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Aug 3, 2015 21:51
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