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Have any Jewish goons lived in Islamic countries? If so, how was life?
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Jun 3, 2015 05:35
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My Jewish girlfriend's father was born and raised in Iran. His brother and father were killed by a mob that attacked Jews in their town and caused the rest of the family to immigrate. He does not have high opinions of Iran.
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Jun 3, 2015 07:09
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tsa posted:It's also really weird to get worked up about a question on Israel in a thread entitled: 'ask about Judaism'. You're ignoring the post right before the question, which asked about Jewish terrorist organizationsbesides Israel of course. It's not an honest question, its trolling for a reaction in a thread where he knew it was more likely to be a sensitive issue.
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Jun 3, 2015 15:16
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MrWilderheap posted:I'd be interested to hear more about the origins of Reform Judaism, or any of the other branches. Reform Judaism came from Napoleonic Europe (1800-1815). For unknown reasons, Napoleon allowed Jews to live as normal citizens in his empire. This allowed Jews who had lived in Ghettos for centuries in Europe to live the same as everyone else - the movement could not be stopped even after Napoleon's downfall. Jewish life in the Ghettos had centered around religious practice with Rabbis serving essentially as judges/mayors. Now that Jews could live in common society, many turned away from the religion. Jewish Leaders in Germany tried to make the religion relevant to the then modern world. They looked to the Protestant Christian churches and structured services and congregations around the models they used at the time, since they were "relevant." There were many debates about what was Jewish tradition, and what really mattered to G-D - simple tradition and dogma were seen as obstacles to living according to G-D's Commandments. Around the late 19th century, Reform Judaism moved to England and America with Western European immigrants. Customs have changed greatly over the years, but today it is up to each individual to live as they understand the Torah and G-D's will. Scripture can be G-D's word or human invention, and thus biblical rules are not absolute. I live a more traditional life than many Reform Jews, but I do not see others as deficient or less "Jewish." I believe it is peoples' right as beings with free will to interpret scripture for themselves - my interpretation is not the only one. The only absolute in Reform Judaism is that G-D exists and has some sort of relationship to the Jewish people. Conversion is different in each tradition. I spoke to my Rabbi about his beliefs, and in the Reform tradition it is up to each congregation's Rabbi. A year or more course of study and practice, circumcision form men (or the drawing of a symbolic drop of blood for those circumcised already), a Beth Din, a Mikveh, and a cerebration can be required. A Beth Din is a panel of three Rabbis who ask the convert their intentions. Joining the religion is not seen as a simple thing, because people can live full lives outside of Judaism - thus the year or more of study, practice, and questioning. Joining the religion imposes a different relationship to G-D, so it is important to know why people want to join and that they know they are joining a covenant. Most significantly, there is no way to "opt out" of Judaism - you and your descendants are joined to the covenant. This is a life and family altering choice. A Mikveh is a ceremony of immersion in natural water seen as purifying a person. This is not the same as a baptism, but could be the origin of that practice. Lastly, the celebration is a time to receive your Hebrew name (all Jews traditionally have a Hebrew name as their first, or in addition to their first name, as this is the language of the Jews and our region). The convert is welcomed as a literal child of Abraham and Sarah - as fully Jewish as anyone who has ever lived. Enophos fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Jun 15, 2015 |
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Jun 15, 2015 04:08
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vintagepurple posted:AFAIK that's kind of encouraged in judaism though-even in the Torah you can see characters like Abraham questioning and bargaining with God. He gave you the ability to be rational and he wants you to enjoy your life, and that means rules lawyering is totally legit. In some cases, it still seems to me to be "technically adhering to, but breaking the spirit of the law." The whole thing about shomer Shabbos and melacha in respect to "not operating electrical devices". If I were their God, I'd either say "No, using a timer to turn on a light or stove that you set the day before still counts as operating an electrical device on the Sabbath itself" or "What you're doing is retarded; just use electrical devices."
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Jun 16, 2015 12:50
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There is certainly no mention of electrical devices in the Tanakh and it's a pretty loose interpretation that they aren't allowed in the first place.
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Jun 16, 2015 14:45
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That's part of what makes it hard to wrap my head around it, given that the one family I know of that does it is conservative and uses timers and such. So, a conservative uses a very liberal interpretation of "work" or "creating" to extend to using electrical devices giving a very broad definition of prohibited activities and greatly restricting what they can otherwise do throughout the week. Then "loosening" that interpretation of work/creation to mean "If I don't actually press a button or flip a switch on the Sabbath." But the explanation of "their god is cool with being lawyered" is enough for me.
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Jun 16, 2015 16:31
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Basebf555 posted:I do think its important to point out that a part of the reason Jews in Israel think its rightfully theirs is because of the Holocaust. The formation of Israel was kind of an apology from the world to the Jews for allowing them to be almost wiped out. Having an official Jewish state is supposed to be piece of mind that there will always be a place for Jews to go if their home country decides its due for a good old-fashioned genocide. Last Buffalo posted:Anti-semitism in the Arab word grew enormously during the 30s and 40s due to the Nazis and exploded after a Jewish state was established. Isn't that a backlash to the fact that Israel was formed by basically unilateral decree of the United Kingdom under the Balfour Declaration? The formation of Israel goes back to Herzl's international Zionist conference in 1898 and subsequent pressure put on Britain under the League of Nations mandate for Palestine. Israel was formed from an imperialist partition. The people who lived there were displaced by the actions of the British empire. Does Israel have a right to exist despite the displacement of Palestine and the Palestinians? Last Buffalo posted:This may sound a bit bigoted, but I think there's a bigger chance for Palestinians winning a better life in the cities of Israel than there is of a Jewish resettlement in Cairo or Baghdad. Please explain how Palestinians under Israeli jurisdiction, where their collected taxes are routinely withheld as collective punishment, their houses are bulldozed because some jerk launched a rocket from them, and how their ability to engage in commerce is throttled by constant border-crossing closures and import seizure is a chance of winning a better life. Enophos posted:I believe that Israel is a home of the Jewish people as told to Abraham by G-D 3000+ years ago. However, its settlement by other groups in the centuries after the Roman expulsion of the Jews greatly muddies the issue. I think that it has a right to exist as a nation - but all those who see it as a homeland, Palestinian or otherwise, should have a right to live there. Thank you for this - it's exactly what I'm trying to get across here. There's too much conflation of the religious definition of Israel with the political, at the cost of lives, and I would assert it's been the singular cause of most global crises since the fall of the USSR in some way, shape or form.
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Jun 16, 2015 19:04
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Please don't post about Israel in this topic.
Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 19:23
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MJP posted:Isn't that a backlash to the fact that Israel was formed by basically unilateral decree of the United Kingdom under the Balfour Declaration? Arab and Muslim Anti-Semitism didn't unanimously spring up as a result of the Balfour declaration, and violently negative views of Jews wasn't just a righteous reaction to the idea of displaced people in Palestine. There were violent riots and pogroms in the Muslim world throughout the 1920s, 30s, and 40s. Ascribing this to just uproar about a Jewish state that didn't exist and largely wasn't supported by the Jewish communities in the countries where the attacks were going on is pretty bullshit. These events came about mostly the same way Medieval European violence happened. Tensions were high for whatever reason and some leader accused the Jewish community of some scheme like trying to poison Muslims or burn down a mosque. You're speaking like the Balfour declaration was immediately on the minds of the entire Muslim world. It wasn't. Muslims in Persia, Algeria, Morroco, and Egypt were not directly effected and didn't blow up in protest. But, they still killed Jews in riots and treated them as second class citizens in many ways. Again, the Nazis had a huge impact on the spread of modern Anti-Antisemitism, but it has deeper cultural roots than Hitler or David Ben-Gurion. As for your point about Palestinians, I agree that Israel is poo poo towards them and there is an enormous amount of prejudice and bad will there. However, what you're bringing up doesn't address the original thing you brought up: that Jews in Israel should have some Right of Return to go back to their Arab homelands. I'm saying those communities don't really exist any more. So, while there is a large and very real community of Muslims in Israel, there is no such thing in the Arab world. There's less than 50 Jews in Egypt, because they're not welcome there. There are more Muslims living in Tel Aviv than in most of the Arab world. How do you imagine Jews would regain a community in Cairo? Last Buffalo fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 21:43
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Hey thanks for starting this thread, I always seem to learn something new in them. My grandmother on my dads side of the family is Jewish and given what you said about reform Judaism this would mean I might be considered jewish as well?
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Jun 21, 2015 08:21
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Enophos posted:This will have different answers in different traditions of Judaism. In Reform tradition, the "Third Temple" consists of the many congregations of Jews who have come together across the world in the last 2000 years. In other traditions, this is the role of the Messiah - to rebuild the Temple. In secular Israeli history, the presence of the Dome of the Rock and the political ramifications of altering it have prevented building a new Temple. Why the importance of building the temple in the same location? Why not either/also rebuild the temple at Shiloh?
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Jun 22, 2015 06:04
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Baron Porkface posted:Why the importance of building the temple in the same location? Why not either/also rebuild the temple at Shiloh? The most important reason being that the Temple Mount is supposed to be the place where God manifests his divinity to the world more than any other place. So with the Temple there, it becomes his dwelling place. God is kind of like Sheldon from Big Bang because he REALLY likes his spot. But additionally, it is supposed to be the location at which all creation started from and the world was expanded from that spot. God made Adam with the earth from that spot according to tradition as well. Abraham is supposed to have prepared to sacrifice Issac on this spot too.
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Jun 22, 2015 18:15
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Was the Shiloh temple legit before the Northern apostasy?
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Jun 22, 2015 20:10
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Do you consider yourself a "minority?" It seems to me that Jews are one of the smallest and most persecuted minorities in the world, but it doesn't seem like people generally are including Jews when they talk about minorities.
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Jun 25, 2015 01:36
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Animal-Mother posted:Do you consider yourself a "minority?" It seems to me that Jews are one of the smallest and most persecuted minorities in the world, but it doesn't seem like people generally are including Jews when they talk about minorities. Short answer is yes, but what that entails is pretty disputed. I know Jewish people who think no Jews (converts notwithstanding) are racially white, even if they look like it, and Jewish people who get angry at the suggestion that "Jewish" is anything other than a religion (usually due to the association of Jewish racialization with the Holocaust). But Jews are definitely an ethnic and religious minority, racially all over the map and often toe the line (e.g. Jeff Goldblum). Interestingly Jews' Middle Eastern origins tend to be either played up by right-wing racists who want to exise them from society, or played down by left-wingers who want to villainize them as overly privileged. So they get you coming and going.
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Jun 25, 2015 21:59
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Haledjian posted:Short answer is yes, but what that entails is pretty disputed. I know Jewish people who think no Jews (converts notwithstanding) are racially white, even if they look like it, and Jewish people who get angry at the suggestion that "Jewish" is anything other than a religion (usually due to the association of Jewish racialization with the Holocaust). But Jews are definitely an ethnic and religious minority, racially all over the map and often toe the line (e.g. Jeff Goldblum). And then there's every Christian's favorite Jew, Jesus. By the way, what are there some of the more mainstream Judaism... positions towards Christianity and Islam? It's sort of a muddled question, but it's the best way I can put it into words.
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Jun 26, 2015 07:52
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Why are jews, and have historically been, prominent and overrepresented advocates of modern social movements? Feminism, LGBHTQT(whatever), immigration, and so on
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Jun 26, 2015 11:27
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Sobieski posted:Why are jews, and have historically been, prominent and overrepresented advocates of modern social movements? Feminism, LGBHTQT(whatever), immigration, and so on Because Jews have historically been treated as second class citizens, so they empathize and advocate for other second class citizens. The Jewish Freedom Riders had some brass balls. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 14:08
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JcDent posted:By the way, what are there some of the more mainstream Judaism... positions towards Christianity and Islam? It's sort of a muddled question, but it's the best way I can put it into words. Judaism doesn't really encourage actively trying to convert people, and there's nothing in the religion that really suggests its some special unique way to get to heaven and everyone else will burn for eternity. Its a pretty chill religion as far as all that stuff goes.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:54
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Cheesus posted:From a couple of pages and months ago, thanks for this explanation. This is one of the main reasons I follow Reform Judaism. I think that it is important for every Jew to have an informed and reasoned approach to Biblical law rather than trying to follow everything, but finding "loopholes" when this is impractical or impossible.
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Jun 27, 2015 05:31
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Tarantula posted:Hey thanks for starting this thread, I always seem to learn something new in them. My grandmother on my dads side of the family is Jewish and given what you said about reform Judaism this would mean I might be considered jewish as well? In Reform Judaism if you have a Jewish mother or father and follow the religion you are Jewish. If you don't believe in the religion, it is up to you if you want to be considered Jewish.
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Jun 27, 2015 05:38
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Baron Porkface posted:Was the Shiloh temple legit before the Northern apostasy? The idea that the Temple in Jerusalem is the absolute center of the Jewish world comes from a tradition that the Foundation Stone, the first creation of the world, is located here. However, this tradition does not appear until after the Roman rule of Judea around 100 CE. The Torah does not state anything about a sole Temple. The closest idea is the Tabernacle - the tent of meeting - containing the Ark of the Covenant, but this was mobile. It is only later books of the Bible, most likely written around the Babylonian exile of around 600 BCE that give this site in Jerusalem great importance. There may have been multiple sites of worship before and during the breakup of the original Jewish state into the Kingdoms of Judea and Israel and later Babylonian rule. Enophos fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 05:49
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Animal-Mother posted:Do you consider yourself a "minority?" It seems to me that Jews are one of the smallest and most persecuted minorities in the world, but it doesn't seem like people generally are including Jews when they talk about minorities. Yes, unfortunately Jews have been persecuted for religious or cultural reasons for centuries. Jews only make up about 0.2% of the world's population, but have communities in most every nation. Israel has around a 70% Jewish population and the U.S. a 1-2% population, but outside of these countries Jews are an almost invisible minority.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:03
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thrakkorzog posted:Because Jews have historically been treated as second class citizens, so they empathize an advocate for other second class citizens. The Jewish Freedom Riders had some brass balls. I agree. Jews have a history of being persecuted so many if not most Jews will empathize with other marginalized groups. Working to counteract bigotry helps all minority groups.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:06
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Basebf555 posted:Judaism doesn't really encourage actively trying to convert people, and there's nothing in the religion that really suggests its some special unique way to get to heaven and everyone else will burn for eternity. Its a pretty chill religion as far as all that stuff goes. This is the main difference between Judaism and the other Abrahamic religions. Judaism is only the practice and religion of the Jewish people. Everyone has a relationship with G-D as part of G-D's creation. Jewish rules are only required for those in the Covenant of Abraham. No one else needs to follow these rules - this is why Judaism doesn't try to convert people. Jews are not better than any other people in G-D's estimation. Jews generally only hope that other people recognize G-D as the creator of the universe and live in peace. Christianity and Islam set rules for how people "have to" reach G-D. Judaism does not believe these are the only ways to have a relationship with G-D and that these do not supersede the Jewish peoples' Covenant. Enophos fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 06:30
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Following this topic, this is why I believe and follow Judaism. The prophet Isaiah said that the Jews or Jewish Kingdom was to serve as a light unto the nations, otherwise known as Goy or Gentiles - non Jews. Many people believe in G-D, even thought they may have a understanding of G-D I do not agree with. I believe this is a necessary consequence of free will and that the continued existence of Jews and the belief in G-D means that there must be something to it. As a follower of Reform Judaism, this is good enough for me and I would never try to force someone to follow my beliefs.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:57
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Enophos posted:Following this topic, this is why I believe and follow Judaism. The prophet Isaiah said that the Jews or Jewish Kingdom was to serve as a light unto the nations, otherwise known as Goy or Gentiles - non Jews. Many people believe in G-D, even thought they may have a understanding of G-D I do not agree with. I believe this is a necessary consequence of free will and that the continued existence of Jews and the belief in G-D means that there must be something to it. That's a very modern re-interpretation of the passage, and the context generally is other nations being super-impressed by the kingdom of Zion, not that it'll be a moral or spiritual guiding light, viz. 4:23: And kings shall be thy foster-fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers; they shall bow down to thee with their face to the earth, and lick the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD, for they shall not be ashamed that wait for Me. And 4:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour, and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. Pretty much all of Isaiah 4 is martial, it's not really being presented as a spiritual thing. I think it's totally cool to reinterpret that, but it's important to note its a reinterpretation. The above bit is also kind of interesting with the eventual Christian belief in body & blood as sacrament, too. Have you read any of Robert Alter's re-translations of the tanakh? His version of Job is incredible. http://www.amazon.com/The-Wisdom-Books-Ecclesiastes-Translation/dp/0393340538/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y
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Jun 27, 2015 14:04
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thrakkorzog posted:Because Jews have historically been treated as second class citizens, so they empathize and advocate for other second class citizens. The Jewish Freedom Riders had some brass balls. Would you agree that, due to this fact, jews harbor an inherited hatred for the European civilisation and its peoples? If so, couple that with the vast sway you hold over America through your economic power then to me a true Jewish conspiracy would seem entirely plausible (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 28, 2015 23:42
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Those are both dumb points. Ashkenazi Judaism IS European culture, and some of the great writers, musicians, thinkers, and scientist of Europe have been Jews. I've never heard Jews described as having a problem with European culture, whatever that vague term means. Also, of the super rich Jews on the planet, they have a fairly broad spectrum of political alignment. What is the conspiracy? To destroy Europe?
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Jun 29, 2015 00:22
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Last Buffalo posted:Those are both dumb points. This is correct, get that anti-semitic poo poo out of here.
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Jun 29, 2015 00:34
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Last Buffalo posted:Also, of the super rich Jews on the planet, they have a fairly broad spectrum of political alignment. What is the conspiracy? To destroy Europe? We're destroying it ourselves, no Jewish help needed! As for small percentages of Jews in certain countries... well, WWII happened. A lot of Lithuanian Jews were saved by this one guy Sugihara (a Japanese diplomat), but many others met their end in the ghettos and repurposed Russian forts. The Soviets weren't big on Jews, either. Oh, and by the way: why do the, I guess, ultra-Orthodox Jews dress so heavily and in black?
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Jun 29, 2015 08:40
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Sobieski posted:Would you agree that, due to this fact, jews harbor an inherited hatred for the European civilisation and its peoples? If so, couple that with the vast sway you hold over America through your economic power then to me a true Jewish conspiracy would seem entirely plausible Poor troll attempt. Also, tons of European civilization comes from Jews. As has been said. But really, with the rich veins of anti-semitism out there you could have trolled much better. Be ashamed.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:14
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What do you think of the notion proposed by Israel Jacob Yuval and other scholars of the history of judaism that many Jewish customs originally evolved out of a 'dialog' with early Christianity rather than the traditional jewish view that Christianity adapted preexisting jewish customs into more universalist ones?
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Jun 29, 2015 16:20
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Obdicut posted:That's a very modern re-interpretation of the passage, and the context generally is other nations being super-impressed by the kingdom of Zion, not that it'll be a moral or spiritual guiding light, viz. 4:23: I have not read Robert Alter's re-translations of the Tanakh, however I will and will reply to your comments once I have done so.
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Jul 3, 2015 08:23
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emanresu tnuocca posted:What do you think of the notion proposed by Israel Jacob Yuval and other scholars of the history of judaism that many Jewish customs originally evolved out of a 'dialog' with early Christianity rather than the traditional jewish view that Christianity adapted preexisting jewish customs into more universalist ones? Early Christianity evolved as a sect of Judaism. Due to the greater popularity of Christian customs throughout Europe, specifically in the Roman Empire, Judaism had to "evolve" to generate answers to this religion. Thus, I agree that many Jewish customs were originally created as a response to Christianity throughout Ancient and Medieval Europe.
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Jul 3, 2015 08:34
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JcDent posted:We're destroying it ourselves, no Jewish help needed! Ultra-Orthodox or Hasidim Jews dress in black and in heavy clothes since they follow the customs of Eastern European Jews of the 18th century. They preserve the customs that their founding communities followed in the late 1700's.
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Jul 3, 2015 09:01
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Enophos posted:Ultra-Orthodox or Hasidim Jews dress in black and in heavy clothes since they follow the customs of Eastern European Jews of the 18th century. They preserve the customs that their founding communities followed in the late 1700's. But non-hasidic "ultra orthodox" men generally dress in modern black suits and white shirts (and black Borsalinos). No one really knows exactly why that sort of became the uniform.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:26
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What motivation would anyone have to convert to Judaism? I'm a non-Jew and I've participated in Reform Jewish religious services a number of times at different synagogues; all of those Jews were totally chill and welcoming. There's no "become an official Jew to go to heaven" thing like Christians and Muslims have. Jews seem to accept that all people can have an understanding of and relationship with God whether they're Jewish or not. The covenant with Abraham was already fulfilled literally so I don't see what impact it has on current Jews. What I'm trying to say is that there isn't the quid-pro-quo present in most religions where you are offered some payoff for joining. It seems to me like Jews give a lot of the milk away whether you buy the cow or not.
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Jul 8, 2015 03:26
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Green_Machine posted:What motivation would anyone have to convert to Judaism? I'm a non-Jew and I've participated in Reform Jewish religious services a number of times at different synagogues; all of those Jews were totally chill and welcoming. There's no "become an official Jew to go to heaven" thing like Christians and Muslims have. Jews seem to accept that all people can have an understanding of and relationship with God whether they're Jewish or not. The covenant with Abraham was already fulfilled literally so I don't see what impact it has on current Jews. What I'm trying to say is that there isn't the quid-pro-quo present in most religions where you are offered some payoff for joining. It seems to me like Jews give a lot of the milk away whether you buy the cow or not. For my friend, who was very close to converting but stopped short once he couldn't reconcile it with his atheism, it was the culture and sense of community that it offered. I don't want to say it's been fetishized at all, but I think particularly in North America, where a lot of people struggle to remain in touch with their heritage and yet still feel like they need that connection, it can be a powerful draw. That's a similar reason I've heard for people "converting" from reform Judaism to orthodox/Hasidic Judaism, but there are separate factors at play there.
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Jul 8, 2015 03:30
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