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gently caress, I keep forgetting about the 300 year difference. 
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Jun 9, 2015 09:20
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:gently caress, I keep forgetting about the 300 year difference. Yeah I think a ton of things can happen in 300 years. I know what I'm gonna try to vote through if it comes up, not to mention suggest if it doesn't. Slavic Germania needs to be a thing if Finnic Russia is ever to occur!
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Jun 9, 2015 10:13
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Please use a vanilla ckii start and say, "wow some weird stuff happened in the last 300 years, too bad we didn't write it down," tia
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Jun 9, 2015 15:34
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...So basically we have the whole PRC and ROC situation like 1800 years in advance. Roman separatists control all of Europe but a whole bunch of people still support the tiny little Corsican holdout as the real Rome excellent.
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Jun 9, 2015 16:53
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What's the WRE's claim to legitimacy anyway? Did the Emperor flee Italy? Who runs Italy now, a resurgent Senate? Having it be a republic in ck2 would be interesting.
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Jun 9, 2015 16:58
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Rodyle posted:What's the WRE's claim to legitimacy anyway? Did the Emperor flee Italy? Who runs Italy now, a resurgent Senate? Having it be a republic in ck2 would be interesting. A military regime turned into kings/emperors seems more likely, though perhaps a neat solution for the Separatists in Italy might be to make them feudal but have Rome be its republican vassal. e: Or the sepearatists have become a very powerful Papal state.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:14
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Randarkman posted:Why would they be destroyed by their neighbors though? The Rhine is firmly established per the narrative as Gothia's eastern border and the defeat of the Franks at Colonia Agrippina might actually be made to be what establishes a lasting sort of peace between the Franks in Frisia and the Goths in Gaul. Except that in the intervening centuries, a comparatively weak Frankish stronghold in the low countries faces attack from the Goths, because what good will come with an alliance / friendship with the puny Franks? It's not like the Franks can help defend the borders, they aren't particularly strong, they don't seem to have much to trade, and who's to say there won't be a Gothic version of a Clovis who's into empire-building? quote:An interesting region looks to be the Balkans, which seems destined to be dominated by the Quadians (Kingdom of Quadia?). Which could result in a power struggle between the Western Roman Separatists and the Quadians over influence in North Italy which might justify making that a kind of unique border region with small counties and republics liable to be controlled by either dominated by either side or band together to defend themselves. What religion are the Quadians (their lands look like they are majority Latin Christian)? The Quadians historically had left basically zero cultural or linguistic influence on the areas they controlled, so by CK2 their territories would most likely be speaking some romance language, if not Greek. quote:The Sassanids' hold on Anatolia appears precarious and as others have said they appear to have overextended themselves as well as having addded a whole bunch of Christians and other non-Zoroastrians to their lands. They kind of look like a colossus on clay feet to me, especially as Axum looks like a rising power in Egypt and the Levant. Axum controlling Egypt seems like pure bullshit to me. There's no way the Axumites can project power along the Nile with their base in Ethiopia. And needless to say, the Nile was one of the most strategic positions in the area, it was a breadbasket, and home to centuries of cultural and civilization that was envied by all surrounding powers. No doubt the Muslims will easily take it over, but even without that, I doubt Axum would realistically be able to hold on to Egypt without moving it's base into Egypt proper. quote:Looks poised for a situation where the south retains more of a Latin culture while the north is extensively settled by Barbarian peoples and comes heavily under their cultural and linguistic influence. The Visigoths had negligible linguistic or cultural influence in Iberia, so I highly doubt it.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:44
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Rodyle posted:What's the WRE's claim to legitimacy anyway? Did the Emperor flee Italy? Who runs Italy now, a resurgent Senate? Having it be a republic in ck2 would be interesting. I am guessing there are two emperors, the separatists in Italia could well be ruled by some rogue legate was propped up by his men as true emperor, then you have the emperor before flee to Hispania, biding his time, preparing to retake Rome. Basically what has happened a billion times in Roman history.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:47
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Merdifex posted:Except that in the intervening centuries, a comparatively weak Frankish stronghold in the low countries faces attack from the Goths, because what good will come with an alliance / friendship with the puny Franks? It's not like the Franks can help defend the borders, they aren't particularly strong, they don't seem to have much to trade, and who's to say there won't be a Gothic version of a Clovis who's into empire-building? Why would he go after the Franks though if they aren't that juicy a target? Southern Gaul and Spain or Italy seems like way more tempting targets for a Gothic empire builder than Frisia. And having an empire builder in the 300 years between this and CK2 seems like a bad idea to me in terms of making CK2 fun, because starting out with a giant Gothic blob in CK2 will simply be no fun, and the game will also be more interesting if it diverges more from CK2 rather than just Francia being Gothia instead and names being changed. Having Frisian Franks, and Balkan Quadians and an Axumite empire (who may very well have made Egypt their new power base) will make it more fun, instead of just ignoring whatever happened in A:TW with the justification that in history these people had little linguistic influence on the areas they settled and such. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 18:00
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Alright folks, brace yourselves, because you are cordially invited to The 12th Annual Intercollegiate & Affiliated Academics' Congress On Medieval History! Several roundtable discussion sessions will run during the course of the event, and you are invited to participate! For each session, we have brought in a variety of experts to go on at length about their interpretation of the subject matter at hand, and you get a vote on each and every one of them.        Once a session has begun, all invited speakers will lay out their positions on the subject. Each speaker will explain his or her position with a single paragraph, and the main gist of the argument will be highlighted in bold. After the speaker's statement has been completed, additional comments about how the speaker's ideas may be turned into gameplay material will be stated in italics. You can then cast a single vote in favor of whichever speaker you find most agreeable, and you cast your vote simply by reposting that speaker's face, along with any commentary if you have anything extra you'd like to say. The voting period for each session is limited and the limit will be stated at the same time that speakers lay out their positions, so pay attention! If you try to cast a vote after the voting period has ended, you'll be mocked and ignored.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:10
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Randarkman posted:Having Frisian Franks, and Balkan Quadians and an Axumite empire (who may very well have made Egypt their new power base) will make it more fun, instead of just ignoring whatever happened in A:TW with the justification that in history these people had little linguistic influence on the areas they settled and such. The way I saw it Axum is interested in Egypt because of Alexandria's importance in Christianity. I have no doubt that Axum would move their power-base north into Egypt proper, especially since the population is already largely Christian and culturally closer to them than anyone else with any sort of interest in the area.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:17
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Jun 9, 2015 18:21
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Randarkman posted:Why would he go after the Franks though if they aren't that juicy a target? Southern Gaul and Spain or Italy seems like way more tempting targets for a Gothic empire builder than Frisia. And having an empire builder in the 300 years between this and CK2 seems like a bad idea to me in terms of making CK2 fun, because starting out with a giant Gothic blob in CK2 will simply be no fun, and the game will also be more interesting if it diverges more from CK2 rather than just Francia being Gothia instead and names being changed. Having Frisian Franks, and Balkan Quadians and an Axumite empire (who may very well have made Egypt their new power base) will make it more fun, instead of just ignoring whatever happened in A:TW with the justification that in history these people had little linguistic influence on the areas they settled and such. Well, there could be plenty of justifications for the Goths to take the low countries. For one, it would be easier to take than Hispania or Italia, and hell, it was one of the most densely populated areas in Europe during medieval times, as well as having great seaports. And besides, blobbing seems not be that big a problem when you can balance that with the feudal system, have vassals of different cultures or religions or whatever and that should make the blob a bit more unstable, if that's the goal. And Quadians definitely won't still be Quadians by CK2. Even if their state survives, I doubt their language and culture will, and what of Slavic incursions and all that? And how will Axum defend against all possible invader? The early caliphates?
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Jun 9, 2015 18:22
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Merdifex posted:Well, there could be plenty of justifications for the Goths to take the low countries. For one, it would be easier to take than Hispania or Italia, and hell, it was one of the most densely populated areas in Europe during medieval times, as well as having great seaports. And besides, blobbing seems not be that big a problem when you can balance that with the feudal system, have vassals of different cultures or religions or whatever and that should make the blob a bit more unstable, if that's the goal. Not disagreeing there (bolded part, still think blob is a bad idea). Same situation as our Goths kind of in that they are likely to adopt civilized ways but still maintain perhaps a few of their own names and stuff, just Romanized to sell it to the locals, so to speak. Slavs may very well end up heading in a different direction than in reality though, or even overrun the entirety of Greece due to the weakness of Byzantium. Rome's hold on much of the Levant and Egypt was tenuous because of religious differences and most of their miltiary power being concentrated in the Balkans and Anatolia. Axum (probably not going by the name Axum any more) ruling from Egypt will not face the same challenges as both are Miaphysites opposed to the Nicene brand of Christianity, and ruling from Egypt will make it much easier to defend. That all depends on what we decide for the fate of Islam, even so that history could still be represented by province culture and relgion, tinkering with culture groups and de jure empires. Anyway we should save future discussions like this for the actual discussions that Ofaloaf has planned, as what we say before that doesn't really matter when we don't know what the options he has thought out even are. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 18:29
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Ofaloaf posted:Alright folks, brace yourselves, because you are cordially invited to The 12th Annual Intercollegiate & Affiliated Academics' Congress On Medieval History!
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Jun 9, 2015 18:36
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Can't wait to see more of the conference! As for the various Romes and their succesor states, here's my two cents about what could happen. ERE By the time of the Atilla start, the ERE is the more powerful of the two Empires. Obviously right now they took a bad beating from the Sassanids and lost Anatolia. Traditionally Anatolia was the source of power for the Byzantines, its where they recruited their soldiers and had a lot of farm land. Without it, ERE doesn't become quite the powerhouse it was in history. With with the Sassanids facing revolts the ERE could make incursions into Anatolia, but likely won't get as far as they did in history. Here they'll likely focus more on the Balkans and consolidating their gains around Greece. It'll be interesting to see how groups like the Bulgars who traditionally didn't get along with the Empire do in this setting, there their lands seem to make up a good chunk of the empire. Might we see a Bulgar Byzantine emperor. WRE With its concentrations in southern Hispania, The Balearic Islands and Sardinia, it's in surprisingly good shape. Like others have said, by this point the WRE was mostly lead by whatever warlord was the strongest. With the relatively stable concentration in these areas, I could see a possible western analog to the Byzantines rising in this area. A heavily militarized south and islands holding out. With whatever butterflies come from what happens with Islam, the south of Spain likely won't face the large Muslim invasion it saw before, or at the least, it may not advance as far. Hispania I could see this devolving into some kind of analog to the Kingdoms of Asturias or Leon. Itallia Being only concentrated in one sub province of Italy, I could see this becoming some kind of merchant republic given its access to the Adriatic (close to ERE lands) and the rest of the sea. Western Roman Separatists This is the big wild card. They could become this world's version of the Lombards, or something else. with the northern frontiers devastated and depopulated, the barbarian pressures won't be as prevalent for a while, leaving it time to consolidate. Alternatively, it could fracture and we see the rise of the North Italian city states several hundred years before it happened. these are just ideas at any rate, I can't wait to see Ofaloaf's suggestions!
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Jun 9, 2015 18:42
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Randarkman posted:Slavs may very well end up heading in a different direction than in reality though, or even overrun the entirety of Greece due to the weakness of Byzantium. If that happens, we will just have Hellenized Slavs, meaning that the Greeks won't disappear, not even the ERE maybe, the new group to capture Constantinopolis could very well just take up the mantle of Roman Emperor in the East.
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Jun 9, 2015 18:48
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I'm really excited to see what Merdifex does with this LP!
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Jun 9, 2015 19:22
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Freudian posted:I'm really excited to see what Merdifex does with this LP! 
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Jun 9, 2015 19:40
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It might be easier to use surveymonkey or something for actual voting that way the discussion doesn't get lost in a sea of votes. But that's just my personal opinion.
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Jun 9, 2015 19:41
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So, uh, where're the options, Ofaloaf?
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Jun 9, 2015 19:52
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Randarkman posted:Not disagreeing there (bolded part, still think blob is a bad idea). That said, if the blobbing gets under way now, rather than when the Franks historically started to really blob, the whole thing could have easily fallen apart again by the time CK2 rolls around. That could happen as a result of succession laws, cultural differences, and the arrival of Slavs and other peoples from the east. Something like this quick sketch perhaps.  *unless we're going with the (frankly dumb) idea that empty provinces actually means a province has been largely depopulated. Merdifex posted:If that happens, we will just have Hellenized Slavs, meaning that the Greeks won't disappear, not even the ERE maybe, the new group to capture Constantinopolis could very well just take up the mantle of Roman Emperor in the East. e: Merdifex posted:So, uh, where're the options, Ofaloaf?
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Jun 9, 2015 19:54
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^^e: Nice that the Slavs have pushed the Scandinavians out of Denmark, though I wouldn't have expected you to post such a map.Merdifex posted:So, uh, where're the options, Ofaloaf? That was probably only an announcement and the options come in a later post.
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Jun 9, 2015 19:55
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Torrannor posted:^^e: Nice that the Slavs have pushed the Scandinavians out of Denmark, though I wouldn't have expected you to post such a map.
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Jun 9, 2015 20:02
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There is only one Gothic Kingdom, united under the mighty...what dynasty do we have? And if we have a bunch of tiny Germanic duchies to our east, wouldn't that just be space to expand in and find vassals? I would imagine some of those petty kingdoms wanting the suzerainty of the Gothic Kingdom for protection from the others. And there's no way the Avars settle North of Italy past the alps, Scandinavia is more realistic.
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Jun 9, 2015 20:06
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*If you are unsure of what the proper procedure for voting or what the hell even this thing is all about, please refer to the introductory post on this highly intellectual symposium. Session I: The Sons of Attila The Hunnic Empire, at its height during the reign of Attila, was the terror of Europe, and was likely the cause of much migration and abandonment in Germania and the Eurasian Steppe. Following the death of Attila, however, the Huns' golden age passed, and they would never fully regain the splendor and power they'd enjoyed during the first half of the fifth century. Just what longterm impact did the Huns have on Europe, anyways? "[img posted:http://lpix.org/2083510/onionface1.png[/img]"]The Huns' legacy was ethnic in nature. Even though the Hunnic Empire itself collapsed, Huns and Hunnic confederates still existed, and Central Europe was greatly emptied by the disturbances of the fifth century. Iranian and Altaic peoples settled much of Central and Eastern Europe due to the Huns. "[img posted:http://lpix.org/2083514/onionface5.png[/img]"]The Huns left their name to the great expanse of the Eurasian Steppe, but the world otherwise moved on, and the Huns left very few other traces of themselves behind. Although a 'Hunnia' or 'Hunnic Realm' exists on maps, Huns ceased to be not very many generations after Attila's death. "[img posted:http://lpix.org/2083512/onionface3.png[/img]"]Although weakened, The Huns never ceased to exist, and lasted deep into the Middle Ages in reduced numbers. Other peoples migrated to and fro, but a distinct Hunnic identity descended from the fifth century Huns of Attila managed to remain. They weren't the strongest anymore, but the Huns were not simply a fading memory from the past. "[img posted:http://lpix.org/2083515/onionface6.png[/img]"]The only thing that made the Huns formidable was Attila, and when he died, so did the Huns. The Huns left no significant trace of themselves in Europe after the Scourge of God's death. What Huns remained dispersed-- some entered service as mercenaries for a time, only to gradually assimilate into whatever local culture they happened to be immersed in, while the Huns who remained on the steppes pretty much just became Bulgars and the like as time marched on. "[img posted:http://lpix.org/2083516/onionface7.png[/img]"]I HAVE ALL SORTS OF IDEAS FOR YOU, LET ME TELL YOU ALL MY IDEAS AND THEN YOU DO THEM FOR ME, BECAUSE I DO THE IDEAS, I STYLE MYSELF AN IDEAS GUY This session will run for exactly 48 hours (2 days) from the time of this post.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:06
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Merdifex posted:And there's no way the Avars settle North of Italy past the alps, Scandinavia is more realistic. Without the Lombards to hold them back in the late 500's, I'm pretty sure they would. EDIT: Doesn't matter anyways because I'm voting anyways with the stipulation that the Avars settled in Northern Italy.
GenderSelectScreen fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 21:08
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Voting for this guy because he seems cool
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Jun 9, 2015 21:13
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Ofaloaf posted:
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Jun 9, 2015 21:14
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This sounds good.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:16
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The Huns: Has-beens. Relics. Corpses-to-be.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:17
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Voting RED, which sounds pretty cool to me!
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Jun 9, 2015 21:17
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I'm kind of confused as to why you all seem to think the Sassanids are in a weak position. They've held basically the same area for the past 30 years, and the one province that has fallen to rebels was Nicomedia which was held by Arran. And in that time Zoroastrianism has spread throughout the majority of Anatolia. It looks like they are happily consolidating their position after they crushed the ERE, and I really don't see them falling to internal disputes. And with Egypt having been invaded by Axum, and the White Huns seemingly not existing in this alternate universe, there really aren't that many fronts left to destabilize the empire like it was in the real world.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:19
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Jun 9, 2015 21:19
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Maybe the decaying Sassanid empire colonized the steppe and russia or something.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:20
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Blue box lady's suggestion doesn't seem mutually exclusive with others. Unless I am misunderstanding it.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:21
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I kind of like the diversity of cultures in vanilla CK2.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:25
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I have an idea, which I somewhat stated earlier. It is pretty much just with a slight tweakquote:
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Jun 9, 2015 21:25
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GunnerJ posted:Blue box lady's suggestion doesn't seem mutually exclusive with others. Unless I am misunderstanding it.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:25
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I don't really see why the Huns would themselves leave a major ethnic legacy*, BUT depending on how you interpret the TW campaign they could have left certain areas open to immigration. Basically, push the Germans west a bit, and let the various peoples to their east follow along. Also, Avars in Northern Italy, just like in the map I posted. *Were they even a united ethnicity in the first place? Merdifex posted:There is only one Gothic Kingdom, united under the mighty...what dynasty do we have? Merdifex posted:And there's no way the Avars settle North of Italy past the alps, Scandinavia is more realistic.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:27
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