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 Time's up, class! I'm glad that's over. Now let's see how you did. Ooh, you guys are sharp! On question one, a lot of you guys seemed to catch on that two of the answers were valid. Of the 97 of you who answered this at all, on Question 1, 36 voted for Choice B, and 36 voted for Choice C. You recognized that the two options didn't actually conflict, and even complemented each other, and you were right to split your votes between them! The Mongol Empire itself never conquered China- it was one of their later nobles, Timur, who went east and tried to do it on his own. The next question was close, but it wasn't a tie. On Question 2, 48 voted for Choice C. The Great Majapahit Empire absolutely dominated early trade in the orient, and was a major sink for bullion. For the 49 of you who didn't go for C, I recommend you go over your notes again. For Question 3, 68 votes were cast for C. That's a good majority of you who got that right. I'm glad everyone remembers the massive native empires that once peppered the Americas. Considering how long it took for us to get through that section, I would've been upset if we didn't get this one right. 58 votes went to Choice B for Question 4. Christianization of Sub-Saharan Africa helped intellectually connect the continent to Europe, just as the Renaissance was beginning. If they had been more isolated due to religious differences and diplomacy, it's very possible that they would have missed out on the tremendous scientific and social advances that blossomed in the West otherwise. Just 46 votes went to Choice C for Question 5. 43 of you thought the "Warp Drive Model" was the valid one, but we specifically talked about that as a debunked crackpot theory alongside the New Chronology. Study, people, study! Well done to those of you who got all the questions correct. For the rest of you, study up and stop playing with your phones in class.
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Aug 7, 2016 00:42
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So we have Timur in China, Majahpahit Indonesia, Massive Empires in the Americas, more technologically advanced West Africa and "other tribes" in the Pacific. Sounds like the power bases of GothTL are going to be a shifted, with a weaker China, but a stronger Indonesia and Africa, alongside a far more centralized North America. Wonder how these changes will effect the colonial era? Will Cahokia westernize? Will Africa get involved in the colony game in the new world? I'm excited to find out.
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Aug 7, 2016 01:09
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btw I have a list of everyone who didn't vote to end slavery
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Aug 7, 2016 01:15
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Ofaloaf posted:btw I have a list of everyone who didn't vote to end slavery The vote was between a more technologically advanced Africa and no slavery. I figured the former would not only eventually result in the latter, but also cut back on the egregious colonialization of the continent and ultimately end up better in the long run, hopefully.
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Aug 7, 2016 01:20
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Ofaloaf posted:btw I have a list of everyone who didn't vote to end slavery Glad to get that one "wrong," teach. 
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Aug 7, 2016 01:21
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I'd like to petition all pro-slavery votes to be removed from the lists, due to the fact that they are in favor of slavery.
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Aug 7, 2016 01:46
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GSD posted:I'd like to petition all pro-slavery votes to be removed from the lists, due to the fact that they are in favor of slavery. It's not pro-slavery, it's anti-anti-slavery. Huge difference.
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Aug 7, 2016 01:56
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Ofaloaf posted:btw I have a list of everyone who didn't vote to end slavery Fox Ironic posted:The vote was between a more technologically advanced Africa and no slavery. I figured the former would not only eventually result in the latter, but also cut back on the egregious colonialization of the continent and ultimately end up better in the long run, hopefully. This. If the tribal and feudal nations on the West African coast had abolished slavery as a war prize, they quite likely wouldn't have been so keen to see/have slaves as a trade good to the Euro/American traders. Presumably, with a greater amount of trade and contact with the sub-Saharan African states the Euro view of the time also wouldn't have been that the Africans were sub-human; which would add to the "not a trade good" view. So while not as in your face with the abolished slavery stance, a higher tech level/more contact with Europe Africa likely would have less, if any, slavery by at least the 15th or 16th centuries.
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Aug 7, 2016 02:28
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Can't wait for Spartacus vs. Rome 2: Revengance. 
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Aug 7, 2016 02:48
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Coffeehitler posted:This. If the tribal and feudal nations on the West African coast had abolished slavery as a war prize, they quite likely wouldn't have been so keen to see/have slaves as a trade good to the Euro/American traders. Presumably, with a greater amount of trade and contact with the sub-Saharan African states the Euro view of the time also wouldn't have been that the Africans were sub-human; which would add to the "not a trade good" view. So while not as in your face with the abolished slavery stance, a higher tech level/more contact with Europe Africa likely would have less, if any, slavery by at least the 15th or 16th centuries. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about being in-your-face about no slavery* * - this post is not intended as a callout towards anyone who did not vote 3C
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Aug 7, 2016 03:21
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How old is the human in the stock photo Loaf is using?? He could be anywhere from 16 to 32 and I would totally believe it
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Aug 7, 2016 13:59
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He is eternal.
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Aug 7, 2016 14:04
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I know the long wait until EU4 will take some time, but the speculation is killing me! I know I need to be patient, but how's the conversion going Ofaloaf? Any more exciting previews coming up, or have you exhausted what you can show us for now?
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Aug 11, 2016 22:31
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is there an "official/final" release of the GothMod or just the version on github?
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Aug 12, 2016 07:33
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I was thinking if the option we chose for Africa means less or no transatlantic slave trade then shouldn't that be reflected in the resources in America? especially as regards sugar and cotton as you wouldn't really have the labor force to produce those resources plantation style as in real history.
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Aug 12, 2016 13:14
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Randarkman posted:I was thinking if the option we chose for Africa means less or no transatlantic slave trade then shouldn't that be reflected in the resources in America? especially as regards sugar and cotton as you wouldn't really have the labor force to produce those resources plantation style as in real history. Nothing was said about indentured servitude, so you could still have what amounted to slavery occur. Sugars and cotton might be slightly more expensive to produce in GothTL, but that's about it.
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Aug 12, 2016 14:43
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Coffeehitler posted:Nothing was said about indentured servitude, so you could still have what amounted to slavery occur. Sugars and cotton might be slightly more expensive to produce in GothTL, but that's about it. African slavery was really what made large scale production of sugar possible and probable in the Carribean. There were earlier sugar plantations where European indentureds were used, but this was both small scale and much more difficult and expensive than using African slaves as the portiguese had pioneered in Africa. Part of the reason has to do with climate and disease which killed off European workers in the Carribean far quicker than Africans due to their greater resistance to tropical diseases and such. So really to be feasible for a European colonizer they would have to attract Africans to their colonies to engage in sugar/cotton production (which would still be very gruelling work with a high chance of disease, and not work most free people would want to do for long). A Carribean/Brazil without the plantation model would also be a very different place as the intensive production of sugar had a very big ecological impact (partly why disease flourished at the plantations)
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Aug 12, 2016 15:52
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It just looks like the sugar and cotton industry will just be dominated by African colonies.
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Aug 12, 2016 15:54
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Yeah. Anyway, looking at it, the winner of the vote was a West Africa that was on technological parity with Europe not one unlikely to engage in slave trade with Europe due to thorough Christianization so my argument is kind of moot.
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Aug 12, 2016 16:08
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Randarkman posted:African slavery was really what made large scale production of sugar possible and probable in the Carribean. There were earlier sugar plantations where European indentureds were used, but this was both small scale and much more difficult and expensive than using African slaves as the portiguese had pioneered in Africa. Part of the reason has to do with climate and disease which killed off European workers in the Carribean far quicker than Africans due to their greater resistance to tropical diseases and such. So really to be feasible for a European colonizer they would have to attract Africans to their colonies to engage in sugar/cotton production (which would still be very gruelling work with a high chance of disease, and not work most free people would want to do for long). I think African resistance to disease is somewhat overstated; slave populations on the sugar islands never even approached sustainable death/birth rates. The thing with indentured servitude is that it's slavery with a carrot at the end for people signing up. That works-ish- in Virginia where you might actually make it to the end of your term. But when you get death rates and conditions like in the Caribbean you're going to have to abandon the fig leaf of getting your labor to volunteer and go full Middle Passage.
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Aug 12, 2016 16:51
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Hopefully we get both Africanu and West African Colonies in the New World. I'd love to see the impact of Orthodox West Africans directly settling South America or the Caribbean.
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Aug 13, 2016 20:46
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I fear that while the African slave trade may not be present in Goth-world, it does not necessarily mean that there will not be a new slave trade situated in another less developed part of the world to fill the gap.
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Aug 13, 2016 23:57
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Preid posted:I fear that while the African slave trade may not be present in Goth-world, it does not necessarily mean that there will not be a new slave trade situated in another less developed part of the world to fill the gap. There would be the issue of distance though, it couldn't really be from Europe or North Africa as Christians, especially of the same sect aren't really likely to go about enslaving one another. Maybe East Africa, Arabia, the Middle East through the Crusader States though I don't really know if they would be powerful enough to be able to get a good supply of slaves going from their enemies. Though slaves could be brought in from further away through trade connections, but again there's distance and the question of where the slaves would be coming from and who would be enslaving them and why. Slaves from West Africa were acquired as they were "goods" Europeans had geographic access to and they (the Europeans) had goods that West Africans were willing to trade slaves for, such as gunpowder weapons, Indian textiles, spices, and various other goods from China and the East. The more forceful method of Europeans going slave hunting in Africa themselves happened somewhat later in the whole history of the Atlantic slave trade anyways, sort of related to the destabilization of existing states which may have been, in part, caused by the rapid expansion of the slave trade which enriched some states at the expense of others while, leaving those enriched in a very precarious position (I think Kongo went through something like this). Anyway the option voted for was not for an end to inter-African slavery, nor indeed for a thoroughly Christianized West Africa, just one more technologically advanded, comparable to Europe. If that advancement is not universal but limited to certain states and regions, and/or if only certain states adopted Christianity then that easily creates the conditions for some states, particularly the Christian ones, engaging in acquiring slaves for labor in the New World at the expense of infidel neighbors. Slaves that are meant either for themselves or for European/North African colonizers. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Aug 14, 2016 |
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Aug 14, 2016 00:20
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West Africans end up enslaving Europeans in some dark ironic twist.
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Aug 14, 2016 00:23
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I expect the triangle to form normally, just with even more cognitive dissonance built in. 
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Aug 14, 2016 00:39
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West Africans wage wars, take prisoners > sell prisoners to Europeans for silver > prisoners sent to W Indies as slaves. So everyone who didn't vote specifically against slavery in this thread is a monster
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Aug 14, 2016 11:55
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:West Africans end up enslaving Europeans in some dark ironic twist. Citizens of all Romes get sold to the West Africans. Nova Roma is a shanty-town in Barbados built by escaped slaves.
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Aug 14, 2016 12:29
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Kulkasha posted:West Africans wage wars, take prisoners > sell prisoners to Europeans for silver > prisoners sent to W Indies as slaves. I've been unable to sleep these past days because the fate of all these imaginary people weighs heavily on my conscience. 
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Aug 14, 2016 12:38
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GrossMurpel posted:I've been unable to sleep these past days because the fate of all these imaginary people weighs heavily on my conscience. As it should.
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Aug 14, 2016 16:39
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Kulkasha posted:West Africans wage wars, take prisoners > sell prisoners to Europeans for silver > prisoners sent to W Indies as slaves. What happens if GTL's more advanced West Africans colonize the West Indies? Will we get a reverse triangle where Native populations are shipped back to Europe/Africa? This certainly won't replace the American slave trade. Oh god. Was Option B a vote for MORE slavery? What have I done? 
Fox Ironic fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Aug 14, 2016 |
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Aug 14, 2016 21:43
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Fox Ironic posted:Was Option B a vote for MORE slavery? What have I done? God's work, son! UNITAS would be proud!
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Aug 14, 2016 22:07
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Fox Ironic posted:What happens if GTL's more advanced West Africans colonize the West Indies? Will we get a reverse triangle where Native populations are shipped back to Europe/Africa? If I remember things right, that got tried a couple times in OTL, but it never worked out. Mostly disease, if I remember right. I can't imagine it would work any better in Gothworld.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:09
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Fox Ironic posted:What happens if GTL's more advanced West Africans colonize the West Indies? Will we get a reverse triangle where Native populations are shipped back to Europe/Africa? Native American populations didn't work very well as slave labor even in their own hemisphere due to the enormous death toll they had from old world diseases. Native American slaves shipped off to the West would die so quickly and in such great numbers, I can't imagine it would be economical.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:11
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Fox Ironic posted:What happens if GTL's more advanced West Africans colonize the West Indies? Will we get a reverse triangle where Native populations are shipped back to Europe/Africa? I guess it also depends on just how Christianized West Africa really is. A Christian aristocracy might have no trouble at all selling heathens to Europeans, or ranging further inland against non-Christianized powers for prisoners.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:13
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:I guess it also depends on just how Christianized West Africa really is. A Christian aristocracy might have no trouble at all selling heathens to Europeans, or ranging further inland against non-Christianized powers for prisoners. This was my main reading of it, I can't see Christianity penetrating all the way into the interior even if the aristrocracy are at least nominally christian, so the heathens will be a fine source of slaves.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:48
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RabidWeasel posted:This was my main reading of it, I can't see Christianity penetrating all the way into the interior even if the aristrocracy are at least nominally christian, so the heathens will be a fine source of slaves. It's not "slavery" it's "bringing the heathens to Christ". What cost is 30-40 years of backbreaking labor in exchange for an eternity of paradise? Why, they should be paying US for our generous evangelizing!
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Aug 14, 2016 23:20
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Pakled posted:Native American populations didn't work very well as slave labor even in their own hemisphere due to the enormous death toll they had from old world diseases. Native American slaves shipped off to the West would die so quickly and in such great numbers, I can't imagine it would be economical. The thing is, we voted for greater contact of Scandinavian Explorers and Native Empires. It's quite possible diseases could have made the jump with just a bit more contact. America could now be more innoculated against Smallpox, Influenza etc. Meaning slavery could very well travel in two directions now.
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Aug 15, 2016 00:15
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Fox Ironic posted:The thing is, we voted for greater contact of Scandinavian Explorers and Native Empires. It's quite possible diseases could have made the jump with just a bit more contact. America could now be more innoculated against Smallpox, Influenza etc. Meaning slavery could very well travel in two directions now. It's a triple-trade. Poor Europeans seek their fortune in western Africa as indentured workers; non-Christian West-Africans are enslaved by their Christian rivals and sent overseas to be bought by colonists and natives alike for OTL-fashion slavery, and in a similar fashion the natives does the same with their rivals who are sent to Europe to be slaves there.
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Aug 15, 2016 00:22
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Luhood posted:It's a triple-trade. Poor Europeans seek their fortune in western Africa as indentured workers; non-Christian West-Africans are enslaved by their Christian rivals and sent overseas to be bought by colonists and natives alike for OTL-fashion slavery, and in a similar fashion the natives does the same with their rivals who are sent to Europe to be slaves there. WHAT HAVE WE CREATED?
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Aug 15, 2016 00:25
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Luhood posted:It's a triple-trade. Poor Europeans seek their fortune in western Africa as indentured workers; non-Christian West-Africans are enslaved by their Christian rivals and sent overseas to be bought by colonists and natives alike for OTL-fashion slavery, and in a similar fashion the natives does the same with their rivals who are sent to Europe to be slaves there. What could slaves do in Europe on a large scale that would be worth the high cost of placing and keeping a human in bondage? Major cash crops like sugar, cotton and tobacco don't really grow in Europe. I could see a small number as domestic servants and the like (as happened in real life), but nowhere near the demand necessary for a large industry.
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Aug 15, 2016 00:28
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