Let's Wear Black: A Gothic Total War/Paradox Mega-LP

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Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

GSD posted:

We need less romes.

I did forget to mention that Roman Illyria's dead now, although the map should be able to tell you that itself.

# ? May 19, 2015 22:03

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 23:48

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

Ofaloaf posted:

Oh, to be sure, Celtic Paganism largely dominates on the ground, but Greco-Roman paganism's the thing that the state supports, not Celtic stuff.

Plus, southeast Britain, where the British capital and the biggest cities are, is plurality Greco-Roman, and its second largest religious group is Germanic paganism. Probably because the Latin Christian WRE diminished Celtic paganism early on in the game, and the Jutes probably built a temple or something in London that fostered Germanic paganism at the expense of Celtic paganism.

There's a very drastic difference between the British 'core' and the rest of its territories.

I don't remember pagans being very gung-ho about holy wars in antiquity so I'd expect something stupid/rad to pop out of that like a Graeco-Germanic Druidic syncretism.

# ? May 19, 2015 22:23

Poil: Mar 17, 2007

GSD posted:

We need less romes.

There is a reason why all roads lead to Rome, you know.

# ? May 19, 2015 22:33

Space Bat: Apr 17, 2009; hold it now hold it now hold it right there
you wouldn't drop, couldn't drop diddy, you wouldn't dare

GSD posted:

We need less romes.

If anything, we need more.

# ? May 19, 2015 22:52

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

Space Bat posted:

If anything, we need more.

Then I think the Byzantine LP is what you're looking for. :smug:

# ? May 19, 2015 22:54

Raserys: Aug 22, 2011; IT'S YA BOY

There are no Romes in the Byzantine LP.

# ? May 19, 2015 23:33

Raserys: Aug 22, 2011; IT'S YA BOY

I, personally, am in favor of more Romes. In fact, all the factions should be Romes.

# ? May 19, 2015 23:36

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

We all have a Rome deep down inside.

# ? May 19, 2015 23:40

Luhood: Nov 13, 2012

It's Romes all the way down.

# ? May 19, 2015 23:49

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf, when you make the CK2 scenario, what's the spread of cultures and polities going to be like? What about religions?

I would love to help you put together the CK2 scenario as much as I can and if you want. I can do graphics, different toponyms / titles / and so on (because, of course, linguistic butterflies) cultures, and I guess whatever needs doing.

I'm still going through the ropes of modding CK2 (it's pretty easy) through my al-Qawqaz playthrough right now. I've added in various cultures (Qawqazi, Fursi, Zabuli, Yunani, Siqili etc.) and the events which convert provinces. Created the character portrait files. Culture sensitive titles. Religions. And so on. So if I can help, I'd love to.

# ? May 20, 2015 01:39

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Merdifex posted:

Ofaloaf, when you make the CK2 scenario, what's the spread of cultures and polities going to be like? What about religions?

I would love to help you put together the CK2 scenario as much as I can and if you want. I can do graphics, different toponyms / titles / and so on (because, of course, linguistic butterflies) cultures, and I guess whatever needs doing.

I'm still going through the ropes of modding CK2 (it's pretty easy) through my al-Qawqaz playthrough right now. I've added in various cultures (Qawqazi, Fursi, Zabuli, Yunani, Siqili etc.) and the events which convert provinces. Created the character portrait files. Culture sensitive titles. Religions. And so on. So if I can help, I'd love to.

I appreciate the offer, but I think I've got a lot of the nuts and bolts of the conversion down already. I often end up with spare time at work, but all I have on hand is a dinky notebook with Windows 8 on it, so I end up spending a lot of time text editing. Most of Gaul is pretty well worked out now, southern England's mostly sorted, Spain is coming along nicely and I've started a bit on Africa. Given the ongoing trends in Germany and points east I've held off on that title work, as I have no idea how that'll turn out and it'll probably end up as a series of votes once the Attila bit ends. Likewise a lot of character and title work's going to have to wait until the end of Attila and voting, because those'll have a big impact on how the CK2 map turns out.

# ? May 20, 2015 02:14

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf posted:

I appreciate the offer, but I think I've got a lot of the nuts and bolts of the conversion down already. I often end up with spare time at work, but all I have on hand is a dinky notebook with Windows 8 on it, so I end up spending a lot of time text editing. Most of Gaul is pretty well worked out now, southern England's mostly sorted, Spain is coming along nicely and I've started a bit on Africa. Given the ongoing trends in Germany and points east I've held off on that title work, as I have no idea how that'll turn out and it'll probably end up as a series of votes once the Attila bit ends. Likewise a lot of character and title work's going to have to wait until the end of Attila and voting, because those'll have a big impact on how the CK2 map turns out.

A lot of the graphics and toponyms seems to have been borrowed from A:TW, which is why I think they should be changed (and, well, A:TW's graphics are largely arbitrary anyway). By titles I mean the localisation ones, rather than the actual titles like "e_byzantium." You know, the "king_title_arabic_group = Sultan" (or whatever it is). From a linguistic standpoint, the cultures could see some more work with the names and the toponyms for counties under their control because of the much different linguistic and cultural influences going around. My interest lies in linguistics, so there's an urge for me to do such stuff.

The graphics for each title, dynasty, icons, etc. I can do as well, and due to the obvious alternate history, borrowing them from A:TW doesn't make much sense.

I've got a lot of time on my hands, and I can start modding effective immediately.

(What's the end date for A:TW BTW?)

EDIT: I can also do religions and religion mechanics, god knows there's a lot of religious changes, and there's going to be more, throughout this LP.

Merdifex fucked around with this message at 02:43 on May 20, 2015

# ? May 20, 2015 02:39

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Merdifex posted:

A lot of the graphics and toponyms seems to have been borrowed from A:TW, which is why I think they should be changed (and, well, A:TW's graphics are largely arbitrary anyway). By titles I mean the localisation ones, rather than the actual titles like "e_byzantium." You know, the "king_title_arabic_group = Sultan" (or whatever it is). From a linguistic standpoint, the cultures could see some more work with the names and the toponyms for counties under their control because of the much different linguistic and cultural influences going around. My interest lies in linguistics, so there's an urge for me to do such stuff.

The graphics for each title, dynasty, icons, etc. I can do as well, and due to the obvious alternate history, borrowing them from A:TW doesn't make much sense.

I've mostly just been using Latin as the default (Late Latin attested in Merovingian or Carolingian sources if possible, classical if I can't find the aforementioned stuff, and I've made up a few for some baronies that I can't find any Latin for) and then specifying different toponyms for different cultures, like

code:

b_lyon = {
	# now defaults to 'Lugdunum'

	german = "Leyden"
}

and that sort of thing.

If linguistics is you thing, though, I have been trying to work out some Gothic-based Romance language stuff, but really haven't been able to come up with a consistent set of toponyms which sound like they actually belong to the same culture and language. I tried something involving applying Gothic phonology to Vulgar Latin, but see for yourself how what a clusterfuck that ended up being.

# ? May 20, 2015 03:01

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf posted:

I've mostly just been using Latin as the default (Late Latin attested in Merovingian or Carolingian sources if possible, classical if I can't find the aforementioned stuff, and I've made up a few for some baronies that I can't find any Latin for) and then specifying different toponyms for different cultures, like
code:
b_lyon = {
	# now defaults to 'Lugdunum'

	german = "Leyden"
}
and that sort of thing.

If linguistics is you thing, though, I have been trying to work out some Gothic-based Romance language stuff, but really haven't been able to come up with a consistent set of toponyms which sound like they actually belong to the same culture and language. I tried something involving applying Gothic phonology to Vulgar Latin, but see for yourself how what a clusterfuck that ended up being.

That looks confusing. What're the sound-changes you've applied, anyway? What're the phonologies for *Gothic-Romance that you're working off of? I could help you out for the toponyms, but it should be mentioned that you don't need to just screw the word up phonologically based on the language of the new rulers. You may use cognates, create calques. Or something totally new, if the importance of the province / area warrants it. I could give you suggestions of those on the fly when the opportunity comes, if you'd like.

On another topic, I can show you some of the graphics work I've already done a bit previously, if you want. I am assuming Arian Christianity will make it's way into the CK2 conversion as a distinct christian group? I've made the icon for that, which I'll show you shortly. The actual mechanics, I'm guessing, would pretty much be like the other christian heresies which don't have a religious head. Or do you think differently?

Merdifex fucked around with this message at 03:19 on May 20, 2015

# ? May 20, 2015 03:12

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Merdifex posted:

That looks confusing. What're the sound-changes you've applied, anyway?

I was trying to apply Gothic renderings of vowel sounds back onto Latin. Is that the right term to use? But it's like, Theoderic the Great, King of the Ostrogoths, was called Theodericus in Latin, and �iudareiks in proper Gothic, so by my totally ignorant reckoning, Gothic 'ei' was equivalent to Latin 'i' for that specific sound. If I wanted a more Goth-y Latin, then, I should try to throw those Gothic vowel-sounds into Latin, so I'd end up with Theodereicus, by swapping out that Latin 'i' for the Gothic 'ei'. Repeat over and over for every vowel rule imagined.

Some consonant sound changes were also added in simply because I didn't (still don't) know why sound changes occur, only that they do, and thus grasped at some poo poo I noticed in Old French and Old Occitan and threw that in both to have some sort of consonant sound change and also to give it something that seemed a bit Gallic.

I suspect that's not at all how languages work, which is why I stopped working on that.

quote:

I could help you out for the toponyms, but it should be mentioned that you don't need to just screw the word up phonologically based on the language of the new rulers. You may use cognates, create calques. Or something totally new, if the importance of the province / area warrants it. I could give you suggestions of those on the fly when the opportunity comes, if you'd like.

The Ostrogoths were serious Romanboos, historically, and they leaned heavily on Romans to run their own bureaucracy. I would figure that Ostrogoths would try to stick to traditional Roman names where possible, and most changes seeping in would come from court Romans unconsciously letting slip their own Vulgar influences or regionalisms or what-have-you. There's a lot in that mess that's derived from what I could figure out Merovingian and Carolingian Franks were calling specific places, because that was the closest I figured to what Early Medieval Ostrogoths would've done in the same situations.

Hit me up on Steam at some point (same name there as what I got here), more chatting would be good.

Ofaloaf fucked around with this message at 03:38 on May 20, 2015

# ? May 20, 2015 03:36

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

So here's the icon for Arianism religion group. The symbol people were throwing around a few pages ago was, AFAIK, not very historical and came from some theology wiki. Reverse image searches didn't find any other sources on that symbol, so meh.

This one is based off of this picture from the Arian Baptistry in Ravenna:

Ofaloaf posted:

Hit me up on Steam at some point (same name there as what I got here), more chatting would be good.

I don't have steam, so another venue perhaps?

# ? May 20, 2015 03:37

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

Do you mind if I use that? I'm doing a Rise of Islam mod right now and was in need of an icon for Arianism.

# ? May 20, 2015 03:44

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Hitlers Gay Secret posted:

Do you mind if I use that? I'm doing a Rise of Islam mod right now and was in need of an icon for Arianism.

Go ahead. I realized that the icons have to be 32 x 32 or something? That one is 35 x 35. But by all means.

# ? May 20, 2015 03:48

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Merdifex posted:

I don't have steam, so another venue perhaps?

You got Skype? Look up :coolspot:

, and do it within a half-hour 'cos that's when I'll edit that name out of this post.

Ofaloaf fucked around with this message at 04:08 on May 20, 2015

# ? May 20, 2015 03:49

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf posted:

I was trying to apply Gothic renderings of vowel sounds back onto Latin. Is that the right term to use? But it's like, Theoderic the Great, King of the Ostrogoths, was called Theodericus in Latin, and �iudareiks in proper Gothic, so by my totally ignorant reckoning, Gothic 'ei' was equivalent to Latin 'i' for that specific sound. If I wanted a more Goth-y Latin, then, I should try to throw those Gothic vowel-sounds into Latin, so I'd end up with Theodereicus, by swapping out that Latin 'i' for the Gothic 'ei'. Repeat over and over for every vowel rule imagined.

Some consonant sound changes were also added in simply because I didn't (still don't) know why sound changes occur, only that they do, and thus grasped at some poo poo I noticed in Old French and Old Occitan and threw that in both to have some sort of consonant sound change and also to give it something that seemed a bit Gallic.

I suspect that's not at all how languages work, which is why I stopped working on that.

The word endings depend heavily on whether the new language or dialect keeps the case system from Latin, or not. So you'd have to specify more on the grammar of *Latino-Goth. It's not just phonological shifts. In Latin, the word endings have meaning as per it's case system, but Italian keeps and morphs the word-endings for specifying the gender of nouns etc.

You can see these changes if you google "latin to italian sound changes" or whatever and there'll be an explanation for how the changes occurred. E.G. https://damyanlissitchkov.wordpress.com/2013/03/23/how-latin-became-italian/

And of course, you're doing a romance-germanic language, you'd probably borrow germanic words and apply the same sorts of sound changes that occurred to germanic languages.

Ofaloaf posted:

You got Skype? Look up [redacted], and do it within a half-hour 'cos that's when I'll edit that name out of this post.

Noted. I'll probably contact you by tommorow evening (EST)

# ? May 20, 2015 03:57

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

So here're my preliminary notes on the phonology for the *Gotho-Romance conlang: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_zoA_5XeF7F9MYx3IYLHdQDqcPEwAgFRqdW6Rn_uqFg/edit#gid=0

I can start transcribing the names with this if you want for the culture files. Toponyms can also be done if you just want me to just change the sounds, but coming with original ones will need a more comprehensive lexicon.

I think the orthography adds a bit of flavor to the culture (which I hope does end up in CK2!)

For example:

code:

king_gothoromance;Thiw�an;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
king_female_gothoromance;Thiw�anau;;;;;;;;;;;;;x

# ? May 20, 2015 08:52

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

I like it!

But, have you ever played CK2 with the Historical Immersion Project mod on? Specifically, with SWMH and all those native localisations on? Properly-localized holdings are one thing, and can really help even with auto-generated nobles and appropriate toponym-based surnames, so that a HRE or Germany that does really well ends up with dudes named "Heinrich von Massilien" and "Franz von Thessalonich" rather than "Heinrich von Marseille" and "Franz von Thessaloniki". It helps create consistent names and add some neat little touches that emphasize "hey, poo poo's changed". That stuff's all well and good!

But then there's the application of native names, and it's hard enough to memorize just one set of feudal titles as it is. Localized baronial holdings help create appropriate names for characters and add a nice little flourish, but when I start getting messages about the Herceg of Erd�ly, I get lost pretty fast. I don't want it to end up sounding like one of those maligned fantasy books where I have to make a note about every fifth term that appears. That sort of thing can showcase world-building alright, but it's at the expense of narrative flow, and I am doing an LP here. Using Latin for provs and duchies, I figure, marks the scenario as different ("Hey, why isn't this called Lyonnais?") and takes out the worst Frankishness out of Gaul while still being recognizable enough with a bit of of thought ("Oh, right, it was Lugdunensis in Attila too").

# ? May 20, 2015 11:45

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf posted:

I like it!

But, have you ever played CK2 with the Historical Immersion Project mod on? Specifically, with SWMH and all those native localisations on? Properly-localized holdings are one thing, and can really help even with auto-generated nobles and appropriate toponym-based surnames, so that a HRE or Germany that does really well ends up with dudes named "Heinrich von Massilien" and "Franz von Thessalonich" rather than "Heinrich von Marseille" and "Franz von Thessaloniki". It helps create consistent names and add some neat little touches that emphasize "hey, poo poo's changed". That stuff's all well and good!

But then there's the application of native names, and it's hard enough to memorize just one set of feudal titles as it is. Localized baronial holdings help create appropriate names for characters and add a nice little flourish, but when I start getting messages about the Herceg of Erd�ly, I get lost pretty fast. I don't want it to end up sounding like one of those maligned fantasy books where I have to make a note about every fifth term that appears. That sort of thing can showcase world-building alright, but it's at the expense of narrative flow, and I am doing an LP here. Using Latin for provs and duchies, I figure, marks the scenario as different ("Hey, why isn't this called Lyonnais?") and takes out the worst Frankishness out of Gaul while still being recognizable enough with a bit of of thought ("Oh, right, it was Lugdunensis in Attila too").

I don't know, I love the flavor localized titles provide. I think it'd improve the LP too, for what it is. But that's my opinion. In CK2, it's pretty obvious what the rank of the character is, so I don't think it's that huge of an issue IMHO. I think the etymologies of the different titles and terms, and the socio-political factors that led to them, should be pointed out. It makes for a pretty rich, deep allohistorical experience and I would expect it to help enrich the narrative. The bits that explain that can very well be made optional, so that people not interested can skip over them. Or maybe I'm just autistic.

Another suggestion I had was for the surviving Romano-British kingdom, or more specifically, their religion. If greco-roman paganism were to survive, I think in the conversion it should be made unto itself a parent religion group. That should allow for the religion to grow and change, heresies and sects to appear as time goes on, that sort of thing. I would personally make it an organized religion, and make the head of religion the Brittanic King / Emperor (the Pontifex Maximus). Give them the ability to get invasion casus bellis against heathen realms. I also have ideas for specific mechanics, like picking a sect / school of thought (like the Dharmic and Islamic religions) and so on. I'm also thinking of a holy order, same as the other religions (and reformed pagans).

# ? May 20, 2015 11:59

NewMars: Mar 10, 2013

Merdifex posted:

I don't know, I love the flavor localized titles provide. I think it'd improve the LP too, for what it is. But that's my opinion. In CK2, it's pretty obvious what the rank of the character is, so I don't think it's that huge of an issue IMHO. I think the etymologies of the different titles and terms, and the socio-political factors that led to them, should be pointed out. It makes for a pretty rich, deep allohistorical experience and I would expect it to help enrich the narrative. The bits that explain that can very well be made optional, so that people not interested can skip over them. Or maybe I'm just autistic.

Another suggestion I had was for the surviving Romano-British kingdom, or more specifically, their religion. If greco-roman paganism were to survive, I think in the conversion it should be made unto itself a parent religion group. That should allow for the religion to grow and change, heresies and sects to appear as time goes on, that sort of thing. I would personally make it an organized religion, and make the head of religion the Brittanic King / Emperor (the Pontifex Maximus). Give them the ability to get invasion casus bellis against heathen realms. I also have ideas for specific mechanics, like picking a sect / school of thought (like the Dharmic and Islamic religions) and so on. I'm also thinking of a holy order, same as the other religions (and reformed pagans).

Does this mean that neo-platonism might be a potential heresy?

# ? May 20, 2015 12:15

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

NewMars posted:

Does this mean that neo-platonism might be a potential heresy?

Depends. Do you think platonic texts / philosophies might filter their way north ? Perhaps some christian groups, gnostic ones in particular, would make platonic ideas part of their theology. But then that could mean that those ideas would be "too christian" for those who follow the true way to just borrow.

# ? May 20, 2015 12:19

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Merdifex posted:

I don't know, I love the flavor localized titles provide. I think it'd improve the LP too, for what it is. But that's my opinion. In CK2, it's pretty obvious what the rank of the character is, so I don't think it's that huge of an issue IMHO. I think the etymologies of the different titles and terms, and the socio-political factors that led to them, should be pointed out. It makes for a pretty rich, deep allohistorical experience and I would expect it to help enrich the narrative. The bits that explain that can very well be made optional, so that people not interested can skip over them. Or maybe I'm just autistic.

If you already have an understanding of how Gothic and Latin works, yeah, then it adds to the experience, but if you're a goon who starts reading the LP halfway through the CK2 section you'll probably just be saying to yourself "what the hell is this and where are the goddamned dukes?" and then you'll stop reading the LP and I'll be sad.

quote:

Another suggestion I had was for the surviving Romano-British kingdom, or more specifically, their religion. If greco-roman paganism were to survive, I think in the conversion it should be made unto itself a parent religion group. That should allow for the religion to grow and change, heresies and sects to appear as time goes on, that sort of thing. I would personally make it an organized religion, and make the head of religion the Brittanic King / Emperor (the Pontifex Maximus). Give them the ability to get invasion casus bellis against heathen realms. I also have ideas for specific mechanics, like picking a sect / school of thought (like the Dharmic and Islamic religions) and so on. I'm also thinking of a holy order, same as the other religions (and reformed pagans).

I really would not advise mulling over religious mechanics and setup too much, since there's still a few decades left before I wrap up the Attila section, and Lord knows what else'll happen during that time, plus I'll put some religious questions (among other things) up to a vote before finishing up the conversion work.

# ? May 20, 2015 14:59

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf posted:

If you already have an understanding of how Gothic and Latin works, yeah, then it adds to the experience, but if you're a goon who starts reading the LP halfway through the CK2 section you'll probably just be saying to yourself "what the hell is this and where are the goddamned dukes?" and then you'll stop reading the LP and I'll be sad.

I don't know. I personally see the denizens of this fine internet community as being more intelligent than that. Even then, they can skip what they don't like anyway.

quote:

I really would not advise mulling over religious mechanics and setup too much, since there's still a few decades left before I wrap up the Attila section, and Lord knows what else'll happen during that time, plus I'll put some religious questions (among other things) up to a vote before finishing up the conversion work.

I am confident the Romano-British hellenic pagans will hold. Or at least their religion will. What sort of questions are you going to put to the vote?

# ? May 20, 2015 15:03

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Merdifex posted:

I am confident the Romano-British hellenic pagans will hold. Or at least their religion will. What sort of questions are you going to put to the vote?

Some very broad stuff, like "Further Slavic Migrations: Are there any, and if so, where do the Slavs settle? A) Historic extent of Slavic migrations, B) Slavs migrate to India C) We are all Slavs, deep down inside, D) etc." and "6th century conversions: Who converts, who doesn't?" and the like. Like I've said, I'm doing some landed_titles work already, but because big broad questions like the above are planned already, there's a lot I'm very intentionally not touching just because it could all still change.

# ? May 20, 2015 15:24

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Ofaloaf posted:

If you already have an understanding of how Gothic and Latin works, yeah, then it adds to the experience, but if you're a goon who starts reading the LP halfway through the CK2 section you'll probably just be saying to yourself "what the hell is this and where are the goddamned dukes?" and then you'll stop reading the LP and I'll be sad.

They can just look at portrait of the bugger, they're colour-coded for a reason. :v:

# ? May 20, 2015 15:27

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf posted:

Some very broad stuff, like "Further Slavic Migrations: Are there any, and if so, where do the Slavs settle? A) Historic extent of Slavic migrations, B) Slavs migrate to India C) We are all Slavs, deep down inside, D) etc." and "6th century conversions: Who converts, who doesn't?" and the like. Like I've said, I'm doing some landed_titles work already, but because big broad questions like the above are planned already, there's a lot I'm very intentionally not touching just because it could all still change.

Perhaps you could just give realistic options for what changes / migrations / whatever happen in the meantime between A:TW & CK2. The areas not covered by A:TW are best left untouched unless absolutely necessary. Too big, too broad = too ludicrous. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by all that.

And what if goons do indeed vote for Britain staying Roman and pagan? What if they vote for you to play as them? Would help to have the code implemented already, just in case.

# ? May 20, 2015 15:31

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Merdifex posted:

Perhaps you could just give realistic options for what changes / migrations / whatever happen in the meantime between A:TW & CK2. The areas not covered by A:TW are best left untouched unless absolutely necessary. Too big, too broad = too ludicrous. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by all that.

I want to give options for resolving some issues that will need a call. I can't just do a straight conversion of Attila to CK2, because half the map is devastation right now and it can't be just that in CK2. Something is going to have to fill in for there, be it Avars or Steppe Goths or Bulgars or something. I'll list options, this won't be a roundtable discussion with everybody just saying whatever, but it's a good way to help determine what's what for all those blank spaces while also getting folks involved and making it all a bit more unique.

quote:

And what if goons do indeed vote for Britain staying Roman and pagan? What if they vote for you to play as them? Would help to have the code implemented already, just in case.

There's already Hellenic Pagan overhaul mods out there, if that's the case, which can be used as a base to work with fairly easily.

# ? May 20, 2015 16:09

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf posted:

There's already Hellenic Pagan overhaul mods out there, if that's the case, which can be used as a base to work with fairly easily.

Which is what I'm working off of, while adding some new stuff of my own. But of course, those mods are never contextual, definitely not to the scenario we're creating here, as you'd know. Copy-pasting the code saves time, yes, but adapting all that content for the world you've built, the unique alternate history of your own creation, that is something else entirely. It is an indescribable ecstasy to see this world you've built spring to life before your very eyes, in a metaphorical sense, with depth and richness of detail.

Anyway, I'll later show the thread the Hellenic holy order I'm working on. Hopefully if they like it, they'll be enticed to vote it in or whatever.

# ? May 20, 2015 16:16

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Merdifex posted:

Which is what I'm working off of, while adding some new stuff of my own. But of course, those mods are never contextual, definitely not to the scenario we're creating here, as you'd know. Copy-pasting the code saves time, yes, but adapting all that content for the world you've built, the unique alternate history of your own creation, that is something else entirely. It is an indescribable ecstasy to see this world you've built spring to life before your very eyes, in a metaphorical sense, with depth and richness of detail.

Hey, if you want to get that cozy with me, where's the dinner and a movie? :v:

World-building is fun and I certainly know the joys of modding, but I do have to say that you are coming on rather strong right now. Chill, mechanics and all the major elements of the CK2 bit don't have to be determined this early.

# ? May 20, 2015 16:36

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

Ofaloaf posted:

Hey, if you want to get that cozy with me, where's the dinner and a movie?

World-building is fun and I certainly know the joys of modding, but I do have to say that you are coming on rather strong right now. Chill, mechanics and all the major elements of the CK2 bit don't have to be determined this early.

It doesn't have to be determined, in fact, I think the audience could come up with any number of mechanics or whatever elements that could be added in, and we could vote on them (insofar as they don't conflict or contradict each other in any way, implicitly or otherwise.)

I just think it'd be better to have something concrete on hand that works and doesn't break the game to show the goons, just so that we can get excited for the possibilities in the conversion. Depends on how the LP is going to go, whether you're going to mod the files in the midst of it, add and change stuff on the fly, or just make the conversion in one go and play the entirety of the CK2 leg of the LP like that.

# ? May 20, 2015 16:46

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Modding CKII is a lot of work, and you'll have tons of gently caress-ups as you do it. That's why I'm not even working on the meat and potatoes of my mod right now. I'm still busy getting character province and title history done. :negative:

I haven't even begun working on flavor text like localized title names.

# ? May 20, 2015 17:12

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Ofaloaf posted:

Would a Catholic/Nicene/call-it-what-you-want priest in Rome wanting to visit a bishop in London be able to travel across an Arian realm like the Ostrogoths in Gaul? If so, then fine and dandy, the network connecting churches isn't that badly disrupted, but if Arians are dicks, then the Roman priest would have to sail around the coasts of Spain and western Gaul to reach Britain, effectively putting the British much further away from the reach of Christian priests and missionaries.

True, a non-friendly/hostile Gaul is not conducive to maintaining a link between Britain and Rome, though perhaps the fact there aren't Catholics in Gaul is the bigger issue. I mean, the territory is a natural center of culture, given its massive population in comparison to its neighbors for most of history, so losing that would weaken the connection to post-Roman institutions on its own. Arians being dicks to Catholics would simply compound the issue further. I guess you could end up with a truly syncretic religion in the British Isles, combining Greco-Roman, Celtic, and Germanic paganism with Catholic and Arian Christianity, and hell, the weak connection to Rome might give it a sort of Orthodox flavor too, with a Patriarch of London as the highest religious authority. In any case, I think it's pretty likely that some form of Christianity will take root (eventually), even if Europe is a mess of different Christianities.

As for the language and culture, there is of course always the possibility that Britain will end up being divided more equally between different cultures, rather than having one clearly dominant one.

# ? May 20, 2015 21:56

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

While we're talking about an Arian Gaul loving Catholicism over; would it also make sense to not spin Catholic off as its own religion in CK2 if it doesn't have France (and Britain)? The Patriarch of Rome would certainly yield much less influence and so might not be in position to detach from the unified Church.

Then again the ERE isn't doing too well either.

# ? May 20, 2015 22:07

Brutus Salad: Nov 8, 2009; Best buddies forever!

Yeah, I feel like if there is going to be a pentarchy it's going to be shifted west a good deal.

# ? May 20, 2015 22:15

Merdifex: May 13, 2015; by Shine

A Buttery Pastry posted:

True, a non-friendly/hostile Gaul is not conducive to maintaining a link between Britain and Rome, though perhaps the fact there aren't Catholics in Gaul is the bigger issue. I mean, the territory is a natural center of culture, given its massive population in comparison to its neighbors for most of history, so losing that would weaken the connection to post-Roman institutions on its own. Arians being dicks to Catholics would simply compound the issue further. I guess you could end up with a truly syncretic religion in the British Isles, combining Greco-Roman, Celtic, and Germanic paganism with Catholic and Arian Christianity, and hell, the weak connection to Rome might give it a sort of Orthodox flavor too, with a Patriarch of London as the highest religious authority. In any case, I think it's pretty likely that some form of Christianity will take root (eventually), even if Europe is a mess of different Christianities.

As for the language and culture, there is of course always the possibility that Britain will end up being divided more equally between different cultures, rather than having one clearly dominant one.

Most important is the fact that the Catholic Papacy definitely won't be as influential as it later became, and won't be conceived in the same form if Latin Christians lose Rome. And you know what this means? This would basically mean that in the game called Crusader Kings, we can end up with basically no crusades. There would be no sense of a unified christendom due to the widespread schism between Arian, Catholic, and whoever else. All of them having completely different views on how the church ought to be structured and shepherded (if at all.) Arians wouldn't mind translating the bible and teaching in anything that isn't Latin, so the influence of ecclesiastical Latin would be at a minimum. Their hierarchy would be closer to that of the early churches, too.

Religous syncretism in Britannia, I'm thinking, could go many different ways. It's very possible that the ruling class would stay Greco-Roman, and the religion and it's hierarchy could be emulated within the Britannic remnant of Rome. The emperor, or whatever the ruler of Britannia calls himself, could set himself up as Pontifex Maximus, and set his capital as center of the faith. Their ecclesiastical hierarchy was pretty much as organized as those of any Christian group, so there's no doubt the rulers would be able to project religious influence and try to keep their faith as pure as possible.

Another change would be to codify the religion furthermore, and it's tenets. That way, you have a clear sense of religious community. You can easily determine who is of your faith and who's an infidel.

And who knows, maybe the Roman method of citizenship would survive, but the only recognized citizens are those who follow the true faith. That'd be at least one incentive to convert, if the religion doesn't develop into a particularly proselytizing one. You'd also need to develop rituals of conversion and conditions for apostasy.

As for language, if the Romano-British are going to stay as dominant as they are, Latin would remain a lingua franca across the land. Maybe speaking Latin could be made a requirement for citizenship. It's not like you have a massive empire with several dozen different cultures and languages.

# ? May 21, 2015 01:18

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 23:48

Mr.Morgenstern: Sep 14, 2012

You guys do realize that a lot of barbarians converted from Arianism to Catholicism in the timeframe between Attila and CK2, right? Just because we're Arian now doesn't mean we'll pull a Clovis and follow the Bishop of Rome. I mean, I can see the Goths switching to the Latin Church in the interest of securing goodwill. We're the only Arian nation in the world right now. Making some theological changes in the name of realpolitik isn't out of the question.

# ? May 21, 2015 01:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > Let's Wear Black: A Gothic Total War/Paradox Mega-LP

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