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Gwyneth Palpate
Jun 7, 2010

Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

McFrugal posted:

Well I mean didn't later patches get seriously grind-tastic?

The whole thing is grindtastic to the core anyways. Why play a heavily gated progression pack if you don't want grind?

Supposedly MSB3 is less grindy anyways, so maybe try that?

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Toadsmash
Jun 10, 2009

Dave Tate's downsy face approves.

MSB3's shtick compared to 2 is that it forces you to to progress through each mod to get to the next in its line, but it doesn't actually change recipes except for conflicts and whatnot. Recipes are disabled and usually won't show up in JEI until you complete appropriate quests to unlock each "stage." You won't really spend a lot of time doing the same thing over and over, so it depends on your definition of grindy!

The worst grinds in MS2 have been nerfed, especially with how easy it is to get osmium since the giant Sky Resources update. It's SUPPOSED to even be possible to do the creative items now, although I haven't heard from anybody who actually bothered.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

You pick up the nugget of URANIUM and...

Oh that was so stupid. Why would you do that?


The other advantage that MSB3 has is lootboxes, which can contain useful stuff that aren't tied to the tiers (like diamonds).

McFrugal
Oct 11, 2003


Toadsmash posted:

The worst grinds in MS2 have been nerfed, especially with how easy it is to get osmium since the giant Sky Resources update. It's SUPPOSED to even be possible to do the creative items now, although I haven't heard from anybody who actually bothered.

Oh, so the final MSB2 patches lessened the grind?

Gwyneth Palpate
Jun 7, 2010

Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

Toadsmash posted:

The worst grinds in MS2 have been nerfed, especially with how easy it is to get osmium since the giant Sky Resources update. It's SUPPOSED to even be possible to do the creative items now, although I haven't heard from anybody who actually bothered.

Yeah, I got to grinding up the chaotic infusion thinger and just dropped MSB2. I didn't really feel like killing a billion chaos guardians or a trillion dragons (for tiny chaos shards from their soul gems) or an end-game that was basically "make hundreds of thousands of mystical agriculture plants."

Meskhenet
Apr 26, 2010



McFrugal posted:

Has the optimal MSB2 patch changed? Last I heard 2.5.5.5 was best. Also I am just starting, what's with the various island types? It looks like the snow start forces you to make a mob dropper before anything else since all you have is infinite snow. The sand start looks like it forces you to make compressed cactus to build with??? At least you have an easy source of food with the sand start since you can eat cacti after making a cactus cutting knife out of thorns. I can't tell what you're supposed to do with the wood start since all you have is water, one string, and 8 wood. Or maybe more than 8 wood since you can use the water to carve out the bottom of your island. Really curious how you get a sapling in any island other than grass.

I started with sand.
You fairly quickly get infinite food and then an acacia tree to build. It follows the infusion route, which isnt too bad.

Edit

To get the sapling in sand you put a catus fruit on a cactus needle then have something in your offhand (i think more fruit?) then use the infusion tablet on ....... something, maybe a cactus itself.

it eats 6 hearts and gives you a sapling.

Thing is growing cactus to get water. You technically need to suck the water out of 20? of them to get your 2 source blocks to make infinite water. And without snad, cactus grows slow.

Meskhenet fucked around with this message at Feb 14, 2018 around 08:56

Ambaire
Sep 3, 2009



Oven Wrangler

I've noticed that there seems to be a substantial cognitive difference in machinery approach between modded Minecraft and Factorio. In factorio, doing massive parallel production lines especially for bobs+angels modded craziness is expected of the player, whereas god forbid one do more than one single line for anything in modded Minecraft. I suppose one difference is blueprints, construction bots, and the whole 2d vs 3d aspect, but I have to wonder.

And yes, this post is in regards to the MSB2/3 discussion. Not that I've ever played either of those.

I will admit that I have difficulty doing more than one production line in modded Minecraft, so there's definitely a cognitive bias for me.

Eminai
Apr 28, 2013

I HAVE BAD OPINIONS ABOUT WARCRAFT WORLD AND I POST LIKE A FILTHY MILLENNIAL. IGNORE ME.

Ambaire posted:

I've noticed that there seems to be a substantial cognitive difference in machinery approach between modded Minecraft and Factorio. In factorio, doing massive parallel production lines especially for bobs+angels modded craziness is expected of the player, whereas god forbid one do more than one single line for anything in modded Minecraft. I suppose one difference is blueprints, construction bots, and the whole 2d vs 3d aspect, but I have to wonder.

And yes, this post is in regards to the MSB2/3 discussion. Not that I've ever played either of those.

I will admit that I have difficulty doing more than one production line in modded Minecraft, so there's definitely a cognitive bias for me.

The biggest difference is that if you try to make a factorio style giant sprawling megafactory in minecraft, you'll be lucky to see 1 tick per second while those chunks are loaded.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


Eminai posted:

The biggest difference is that if you try to make a factorio style giant sprawling megafactory in minecraft, you'll be lucky to see 1 tick per second while those chunks are loaded.
Yeah, it's this.
A combination of a much slower crafting system/interface, generally higher costs per part, and lower automation in general contribute to this. But the absolute main factor is performance. Playing Factorio was weird for me because I kept thinking "well slow down I don't want to build TOO many conveyor belts, that'll slow my game down.

Minecraft Modding is an absolute crapshoot. Some blocks/machines are mostly fine, others will tank your framerate if you even have one. And in any modpack, especially with automation, that thought is always looming in my head: "will building this destroy my framerate down the line?"

Gwyneth Palpate
Jun 7, 2010

Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

There's also the fact that parallelizing production in Minecraft is hard. In Factorio, assemblers intelligently buffer themselves with twice the amount of inputs they need for an output, and stop crafting after their ability to deliver an output backs up pretty fast. In Minecraft, you have to invest in a lot of infrastructure to evenly deliver inputs and to stop "assemblers" when they are overproducing. My Progress server base is probably spending 30% of its AE2 channels on level emitters alone.

Depends
May 6, 2006
no.

Meskhenet posted:

Thing is growing cactus to get water. You technically need to suck the water out of 20? of them to get your 2 source blocks to make infinite water. And without snad, cactus grows slow.

Does sneaking repeatedly speed up cactus growth like it does with saplings?

Gwyneth Palpate
Jun 7, 2010

Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

Meskhenet posted:


Thing is growing cactus to get water. You technically need to suck the water out of 20? of them to get your 2 source blocks to make infinite water. And without snad, cactus grows slow.

You can suck water out of tree leaves.

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

Gwyneth Palpate posted:

You can suck water out of tree leaves.

It takes 100 leaf blocks though, so definitely use the compressed water sucker that can do a 3x3x3 cube

Gwyneth Palpate
Jun 7, 2010

Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

Devor posted:

It takes 100 leaf blocks though, so definitely use the compressed water sucker that can do a 3x3x3 cube

Yeah. There's not really a reason to use the not-compressed water thinger, anyways. The compressed one is just 20 more wood planks, and it holds 20 buckets of water.

Meskhenet
Apr 26, 2010



Depends posted:

Does sneaking repeatedly speed up cactus growth like it does with saplings?

Not that i know of, it;s been ages since i started


Gwyneth Palpate posted:

You can suck water out of tree leaves.

Cool, do they still drop saplings once dry?

Gwyneth Palpate
Jun 7, 2010

Do you want your breadcrumbs highlighted?

~SMcD

Meskhenet posted:

Cool, do they still drop saplings once dry?

It destroys the leaves.

Tyty
Feb 20, 2012

Night-vision Goggles Equipped!


Ambaire posted:

I've noticed that there seems to be a substantial cognitive difference in machinery approach between modded Minecraft and Factorio. In factorio, doing massive parallel production lines especially for bobs+angels modded craziness is expected of the player, whereas god forbid one do more than one single line for anything in modded Minecraft. I suppose one difference is blueprints, construction bots, and the whole 2d vs 3d aspect, but I have to wonder.

And yes, this post is in regards to the MSB2/3 discussion. Not that I've ever played either of those.

I will admit that I have difficulty doing more than one production line in modded Minecraft, so there's definitely a cognitive bias for me.

Another big thing is that Factorio, even modded, has a LOT of common components. Basic circuits and gears especially tend to get used in almost everything, making it worth it to produce tons of them. In minecraft, especially modded, there isn't a ton of common components you want a lot of. Maybe clay anymore? To add on to that, you don't want to make a ton of the final thing either. In Factorio I want to make a LOT of assemblers, belts, and inserters... I don't really have any reason to make thousands of an Immersive Engineering belt or even enderIO conduits. If I need them I can just pull them out of a storage system.

Goon Danton
May 24, 2012

Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.



I decided to throw together a mini modpack for the new Thaumcraft beta, but it's crashing every time I try to make a crucible from a cauldron. Kind of a roadblock to progression. Anyone know if this is a known thing or if there's a workaround?

Mzbundifund
Nov 5, 2011

I'm afraid so.


Goon Danton posted:

I decided to throw together a mini modpack for the new Thaumcraft beta, but it's crashing every time I try to make a crucible from a cauldron. Kind of a roadblock to progression. Anyone know if this is a known thing or if there's a workaround?

That was not the case a week ago, but the latest Thaumcraft beta version literally came out today, and I haven't tried it. The version before today's had a crash when trying to make a spell focus, so it's very much a work in progress, and it's quite possible that it's just a bug in the progression. I assume since it's a mini modpack you made yourself there's not likely to be any goofy mod interaction issues to blame.

That said, once you turn a cauldron into a Crucible, the Crucible itself is a block like any other that can be mined up with a pickaxe and placed in the usual way, so you can probably work around it by just throwing away your salis mundus and spawning yourself a crucible through the command console or JEI.

Goon Danton
May 24, 2012

Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.



Thanks, I grabbed the next version and it's fine now.

How do I get epiphanies? It's holding me back from a bunch of research on fundamentals atm.

McFrugal
Oct 11, 2003


Goon Danton posted:

Thanks, I grabbed the next version and it's fine now.

How do I get epiphanies? It's holding me back from a bunch of research on fundamentals atm.

I think you get epiphanies by completing research. Not entirely sure, and I completed most of my book before the theory/epiphany costs were correctly implemented.

On the subject of TC5, what the gently caress is an Ambient Grass Block? I found one in the world and scanned it, but not knowing what it was I broke it with a shovel and got regular old dirt.

Mzbundifund
Nov 5, 2011

I'm afraid so.


Goon Danton posted:

How do I get epiphanies? It's holding me back from a bunch of research on fundamentals atm.

Scan a bunch of stuff with your thaumometer. If you scan a chest it scans everything in the chest, so you get a ton of observations and good odds at an epiphany.

Bouchacha
Feb 7, 2006



What's the opposite of a kitchen sink modpack? I loved Agrarian Skies 1 back in the day, but only when I cheated and skipped over bee breeding and similar. My favorite part was making an efficient set-up from scratch and mass-producing lettuce. I was stoked on Blightfall because it was very thematically consistent but I got very frustrated at the point where I had to run around on my boat eeking out bits of essence for my wand. Is there a quest modpack with either TFC or Immersive Engineering or something similarly "low-key"? I don't want modpacks that include mods just for the hell of it.

Krakatoah
Jul 8, 2009

Super High-School Level Bean-dog


Bouchacha posted:

What's the opposite of a kitchen sink modpack? I loved Agrarian Skies 1 back in the day, but only when I cheated and skipped over bee breeding and similar. My favorite part was making an efficient set-up from scratch and mass-producing lettuce. I was stoked on Blightfall because it was very thematically consistent but I got very frustrated at the point where I had to run around on my boat eeking out bits of essence for my wand. Is there a quest modpack with either TFC or Immersive Engineering or something similarly "low-key"? I don't want modpacks that include mods just for the hell of it.

Did you try making a wand with a Tainted rod core? It slowly recharges in tainted lands and taking taint-related damage also charges it up a bit... since you're pretty much in one giant tainted biome it's rather powerful for the early game.

AceClown
Sep 11, 2005



Bouchacha posted:

What's the opposite of a kitchen sink modpack? I loved Agrarian Skies 1 back in the day, but only when I cheated and skipped over bee breeding and similar. My favorite part was making an efficient set-up from scratch and mass-producing lettuce. I was stoked on Blightfall because it was very thematically consistent but I got very frustrated at the point where I had to run around on my boat eeking out bits of essence for my wand. Is there a quest modpack with either TFC or Immersive Engineering or something similarly "low-key"? I don't want modpacks that include mods just for the hell of it.

I loved those mod packs too, the closest I've found at the minute is Modern Skyblock 3, it's got quests, 3 modes you can play so you can choose if stuff is gated behind mods and it runs pretty well.

Black Pants
Jan 16, 2008

Such comfortable, magical pants!

Lipstick Apathy

Blightfall has Forbidden Magic, so it's also got the Botania wood wands that recharge from mana on you at a really good conversion rate. But you absolutely should rush the tech to capture and convert a node to suck centivis from it.

Otherwise, quest modpacks are pretty rare when they're not the 'quests just to build every item in the pack' "We've got 800+ quests!" style. There's TechNodeFirmaCraft EZ I mentioned recently, there's Blightfall and Regrowth, those three are all on 1.7. More recently there's the guided progression packs Age of Engineering/Magic/Progression/Progression 2. The survival challenge packs Forever Stranded and Forever Stranded: Lost Souls. Then there's the skyblock maps, the latest big thing of which are Modern Skyblock 2 and 3.

If you want, you can just go to the Twitch launcher's modpack section and sort by the 'Quests' category.

Bouchacha
Feb 7, 2006



Krakatoah posted:

Did you try making a wand with a Tainted rod core? It slowly recharges in tainted lands and taking taint-related damage also charges it up a bit... since you're pretty much in one giant tainted biome it's rather powerful for the early game.

Nope! It's way too easy to fall into this trap when a giant modpack includes several different paths to the same goal and doesn't provide any real guidance.

Black Pants posted:

There's TechNodeFirmaCraft EZ I mentioned recently
I looked through your posts in this thread and couldn't find this when I ctrl+f

McFrugal
Oct 11, 2003


Mzbundifund posted:

Scan a bunch of stuff with your thaumometer. If you scan a chest it scans everything in the chest, so you get a ton of observations and good odds at an epiphany.

Note: you might need to scan both sides of a double chest to get everything in it. Seemed like I got new observations when I tried that.

Black Pants
Jan 16, 2008

Such comfortable, magical pants!

Lipstick Apathy

Bouchacha posted:

Nope! It's way too easy to fall into this trap when a giant modpack includes several different paths to the same goal and doesn't provide any real guidance.

I looked through your posts in this thread and couldn't find this when I ctrl+f

Vib Rib posted:

Dropbox has been acting strange lately but the link should still work from Technic. If not, you can try it directly here.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


Lipstick Apathy

So I was giving a roadtest of the mods which have made it to 1.12.2 and ye gods what happened to Woot, it's a grindy clusterfuck now and Ipsis is now blacklisting mods like botania.

MaliciousOnion
Sep 23, 2009

Ignorance, the root of all evil


Yeah, the factories are now expensive to build, expensive to run and they require item inputs. Every single block takes multiple steps to build, none of which are easy to automate, and the build guide is awful. Also they never stay connected to draconic wireless crystals.

Rutibex
Sep 9, 2001

Everything I post is dumb and wrong


Bouchacha posted:

What's the opposite of a kitchen sink modpack?

Vanilla Minecraft?

Toadsmash
Jun 10, 2009

Dave Tate's downsy face approves.

Woot was hysterically unbalanced before for what it did by several orders of magnitude. It really deserved to have an entire proper tech progression of some kind, though I'm not sure how I would have implemented it. Now I'm curious to see the new version for myself.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

You pick up the nugget of URANIUM and...

Oh that was so stupid. Why would you do that?


Is there some sort of known issue with Biomes o' Plenty not generating quartz in the nether? I decided to try it out instead of Natura in a new world, and I've been scouring the place and haven't found any.

e: some googling tells me this might be a CoFH Core issue as well, but the posts are like over a year old and don't really have solutions.

Evil Mastermind fucked around with this message at Feb 18, 2018 around 18:15

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


Lipstick Apathy

Toadsmash posted:

Woot was hysterically unbalanced before for what it did by several orders of magnitude. It really deserved to have an entire proper tech progression of some kind, though I'm not sure how I would have implemented it. Now I'm curious to see the new version for myself.

Tell us what a proper tech progression is, senpai.

CrazyTolradi
Oct 2, 2011

It feels so good to be so bad.....at posting.



Toadsmash posted:

Woot was hysterically unbalanced before for what it did by several orders of magnitude. It really deserved to have an entire proper tech progression of some kind, though I'm not sure how I would have implemented it. Now I'm curious to see the new version for myself.
Considering you needed at least 4 Nether Stars for tier 4 factory, not really?

The whole point of Woot was originally to stop people making mob grinders in world, which was a lot worse for server TPS than something like Woot. Now it's just easier to make a mob grinder again, so it's kind of negated the reason for being made in the first place.

It's pretty much how a lot of cool mods end up, Gregtech evolved from being a mod with a simple lightning rod to generate EU into the clusterfuck of insanity it is today.

Toadsmash
Jun 10, 2009

Dave Tate's downsy face approves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those gung ho EVERYTHING SHOULD TAKE HOURS AND HATE THE PLAYER people, but Woot was part of my earliest experience with modded Minecraft and the 1.10 version compared to every more conventional mob farm I've tried since was vastly more efficient for much less setup effort. Like, it completely breaks Draconic Evolution, for one thing. You set up a Wither generator and slap a few upgrades on it, suddenly you have literally thousands of nether stars in barely an hour and all I really had to do up front was kill a couple Withers manually and throw.... somewhere around 10k RF/t at it? The rest of the mats for it were meaningless. It was way too easy to scale up and made virtually every mob drop an unlimited resource with minimal up front investment. You could do the same thing with Dragon Eggs, making Awakened Draconium a MUCH more accessible resource than it is in any pack that didn't have either Woot or the resource crop.

I haven't played with the new version and I'm not in any way trying to comment on whether it took it too far or not. But yeah, the old version didn't feel like it made you invest nearly enough for something that could trivialize so many different resources. I don't buy into schemes that flat out boost the resource costs, either, which is why I don't know how I would have fixed it. Raising difficulty in an interesting way without making something grindy and stupid and unfun is challenging to pull off.

Black Pants
Jan 16, 2008

Such comfortable, magical pants!

Lipstick Apathy

The only time I've used Woot, in 1.10, I made one just high enough level to get endermen, then hooked it up to one of those crazy Ender Utilities chests that have like 1024 item stacks with the right memory card. ..and proceeded to fill them up with tens of thousands of skeleton/zombie/endermen skulls and ender pearls for use with EnderIO that was also in the pack, with basically no effort whatsoever and only a mild annoyance using the silly crafting system it had.

Khorne
May 1, 2002

Goonstone Champ x2

It would be cool if mod makers knew how to scale up without it being tedious or pointless.

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MaliciousOnion
Sep 23, 2009

Ignorance, the root of all evil


The only thing I can see Woot being good for now is dragon farming. The amount of effort that goes into making a wither factory, for example, necessitates having a wither farm to start with.

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