Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Duckboat
May 15, 2012



Ooof. On the one hand. Maryland's looks messy. On the other, you seems to have more options than us up in MA.

Quick primer: There are TWO approved rosters in MA, one with published criteria to get on it and one that doesn't seem to. A handgun must be on both to be sold new from a dealer in the Commonwealth.

My job, and the abundance of great Italian food, keeps me here.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

Pretty Little Lyres

Duckboat posted:

Just out of curiosity, are there any states besides MA and CA that have approved pistol rosters?

DC is to small and cheap to make their own, so our rules literally say "pistol must appear on the approved roster for CA, MD, or MA." That gives us more spread since so long as it's on at least one of those lists, it's kosher.

fuccboi
Jan 5, 2004

by zen death robot


Bump. NY: Muzzle breaks are illegal, 10 rounds are in, assault weapons are scary and therefore its permissible to ban them.

http://law-policy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/NYSRAP-vs-Cuomo-OPINION-10192015.pdf

MrTuffPaws
Feb 7, 2005



Woot!, it goes to the SCotUS.....oh gently caress, it is going to the SCotUS!

Duckboat
May 15, 2012


Not gonna lie, I thought it was a little funny when people were up in arms about "safe storage" requirements in San Francisco not going to the Supreme Court. Some of use have been dealing with that for years.

fuccboi
Jan 5, 2004

by zen death robot


There was a 16 gun safe on sale on /r/gundeals for like 100 bucks so I bought it. WOuldn't stop a robber even if I bolted it down but when the legislation eventually gets pushed through (inevitable legislative response!!!) I'll be ok. and at least my 2 year old won't blow her brains out.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


Duckboat posted:

Not gonna lie, I thought it was a little funny when people were up in arms about "safe storage" requirements in San Francisco not going to the Supreme Court. Some of use have been dealing with that for years.

Yeah but, and it pains me every time I type this, Scalia was right: those laws and subsequent appeals court decisions run contrary to Heller, and the SC ought to hold lower courts to their ruling. I understand that they feel like they have bigger fish to fry though.

Duckboat
May 15, 2012


Dead Reckoning posted:

Yeah but, and it pains me every time I type this, Scalia was right: those laws and subsequent appeals court decisions run contrary to Heller, and the SC ought to hold lower courts to their ruling. I understand that they feel like they have bigger fish to fry though.

Not to mention there will likely be SC retirements soon, and who knows how any new Justice will interpret things.

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


Duckboat posted:

Not to mention there will likely be SC retirements soon, and who knows how any new Justice will interpret things.

Not likely. At least, I doubt any justices will be resigning soon for political reasons; the Republicans control the Senate and Obama gets to make the appointments. It's in nobody's interest right now.

Duckboat
May 15, 2012


Fair enough, I meant more over the next 2-3 years. Some dudes are getting old and probably want to golf.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...9c2f_story.html

Looks like Maryland gets a minor win.

Summary:
- 2A complaint against the AWB and magazine ban that was denied in district court under intermediate scrutiny is overturned and remanded to district court to have strict scrutiny applied.
- Equal protection complaint with regard to retired LEOs being exempt that was denied by district court is upheld, remains denied.
- Unconstitutional Vagueness complaint with regard to "copies" of named assault weapons that was denied by district is also upheld, remains denied.

First point there is a pretty big win. Strict scrutiny has been the death of many a law.

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

Pretty Little Lyres

An AWB-compliant.... bullpup???

Doctor Grape Ape
Aug 26, 2005

Dammit Doc, I just bought this for you 3 months ago. Try and keep it around for a bit longer this time.


TapTheForwardAssist posted:

An AWB-compliant.... bullpup???



Looks like the kid from Gummo is doing alright for himself.

MrTuffPaws
Feb 7, 2005



Doctor Grape Ape posted:

Looks like the kid from Gummo is doing alright for himself.

Lol. All that paint huffing, he forgot to include a pistol grip.

janklow
Sep 28, 2001

whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent.


MazeOfTzeentch posted:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...9c2f_story.html

Looks like Maryland gets a minor win.

Summary:
- 2A complaint against the AWB and magazine ban that was denied in district court under intermediate scrutiny is overturned and remanded to district court to have strict scrutiny applied.
- Equal protection complaint with regard to retired LEOs being exempt that was denied by district court is upheld, remains denied.
- Unconstitutional Vagueness complaint with regard to "copies" of named assault weapons that was denied by district is also upheld, remains denied.

First point there is a pretty big win. Strict scrutiny has been the death of many a law.
i would like to be cautiously optimistic... but Maryland does not make that easy.

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

Pretty Little Lyres

Clarify this CA thing for me:

So the legislation that might quite possibly get passed and go into effect January 2017 would declare "assault weapons" all semi-auto centerfires with one evil feature and a detachable mag, or *all* centerfire semis with a detachable mag?

Just wondering if the Ares SCR and Mini-14 would be kosher, or just SKS, M1 Garand, or firearms like the Mini-14 and VZ58 when in a variant where their 10rd mag is fixed in place and top-loaded with stripper clips.

MrTuffPaws
Feb 7, 2005



Anything center fire with a detachable mag would get the axe. SKS would be fine as long as it remains with a fixed mag that would require disassembly to remove. The others you sighted, bye bye.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


TapTheForwardAssist posted:

So the legislation that might quite possibly get passed and go into effect January 2017 would declare "assault weapons" all semi-auto centerfires with one evil feature and a detachable mag, or *all* centerfire semis with a detachable mag?

There are currently two different bills that have been proposed, one does the former and the other does the latter. No one knows if either, both or neither will go forward, or how they will look post-committee.

MrTuffPaws posted:

Anything center fire with a detachable mag would get the axe. SKS would be fine as long as it remains with a fixed mag that would require disassembly to remove. The others you sighted, bye bye.
It's worth noting that any SKS with a detachable mag or grenade launcher is already considered an AW in California.

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

Pretty Little Lyres

MrTuffPaws posted:

Anything center fire with a detachable mag would get the axe. SKS would be fine as long as it remains with a fixed mag that would require disassembly to remove. The others you sighted, bye bye.

If you have to disassemble the rifle to get the mag out, it's kosher though, yes?

So it's a pretty trivial deal to mod a Mini-14 or VZ58 to fixed mag; I had a quote for a 10rd fixed-mag VZ58 (with all the evil features) from Czechpoint that I was debating getting for DC. DC would be tougher than CA though since DC requires literally taking the physical gun to the police station, so you could end up in an argument with some cop about whether it's allowed or not, or get a stalling "I need to look into it for months" while CA has just a big bureaucracy. The VZ58 was actually, like the Enfield bolt-rifle, made with detachable mags but with the intent that troops top-load the mag with stripper clips rather than remove it.

Mini-14 should be able to do the same mod easily; if that legislation actually goes through I think it'd be pretty savvy for Ruger to quickly come out with a CA-legal Mini-14 from the factory. Just got to make some kind of modified mag that drops in from above and clamps in, and add a stripper-clip guide. I'm unclear as to whether such a thing is currently available aftermarket; there's a demo of one on YouTube from 2013 but not follow-up as to whether the guy went into production with it, but if it turns into a matter of "your Mini-14 must have such-and-such features to be owned in CA" I'd imagine the market would adjust with a quickness.

I know there are plenty of top-fed fixed-mag historical rifles, but I'm hard-pressed to think of many in current production, or even of many that can be relatively easily modified (by something like adding a stripper guide and modifying a mag to be dropped in from above and clamped/screwed/blocked in place). M14 is easy, SKS is readily available but has increased a lot in price and there's no new ones imported, etc. But VZ58s that fit are already on the market.



EDIT: En-bloc clips are faster/easier to use than stripper clips, right? Easier to line up and insert? Totally in theory, but for shooting some kind of modified CA-legal 3-gun with top-loading mags, would a Mini-14 that took a 10rd en-bloc clip be better than a stripper-fed one?

TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Mar 4, 2016

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


Do you live in CA currently, or have plans to move there before the end of the year? Buy whatever you want. Both bills allow for grandfathering of already owned "assault weapons."

Also, an en-bloc Mini-14 in 5.56 or even better 6.8/.270 would be pretty tits irrespective of legal concerns.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Mar 4, 2016

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

Pretty Little Lyres

Dead Reckoning posted:

Do you live in CA currently, or have plans to move there before the end of the year?

Have lived there, may live there again, and have at least a 50% chance of living there this summer. But I don't plan to acquire CA residency while living there this summer since it's a temporary work thing, so I can't just register a couple AR lowers and leave them in a closet for years, right? Sounds like owning/storing such a receiver would be a liability if I'm not usually in the state. If I for some reason end up moving back to CA, I'd be totally fine (on a personal level, not political) owning a fixed-mag Mini or VZ58.

quote:

Also, an en-bloc Mini-14 in 5.56 or even better 6.8/.270 would be pretty tits irrespective of legal concerns.

Indeed. I was glancing at some threads in other forums online, and I noticed a lot of backlash to any suggestions of a fixed-mag top-loading Mini-14. You see the same backlash towards *any* AWB-compliant rifle, mostly from people that don't personally live in those states so insist other people take one for the team by breaking the law instead, even when a lot of "AWB-compliant" rifles are just as lethal for SD or "the revolution" as AW ones.

I got in that argument about the SCR or something once, someone calling me a "traitor" for wanting to own one. I asked how a rifle that shoots the exact same bullet at the same speed is somehow markedly inferior for not having a PG stock, and got cussed out and told I should break the law (DC in this case) instead. So I asked the poster if he modified all his AR-15s to be full auto and "uncompromised", so I get a bunch of posters arguing that FA is immaterial for "fighting the government" (yet somehow a PG is vital?), and others doing this petulant "well maybe I *do* make all my ARs full auto but I'm not telling you that, but don't assume that I'm not a hardcore lawbreaking patriot". God drat I hate a lot of people in this hobby sometimes.



I did find the argument interesting though, people insisting that there's no way Ruger would bother making a Mini-14 variant with fixed/stripper "just" for CA. And people cited some companies that have refused to make CA-compliant guns. Okay fine, but even if Glock refuses to make a CA-compliant Gen4, presumably a big part of the reason is that there are literally hundreds of firearms, and dozens that are functionally equal to the Gen4 Glock, that Glock has to compete with even if the make the roster. So Glock would have to modify a design to compete in a relatively crowded marketplace of CA buyers.

In contrast, if SB374 or whatever passes, that would wipe out the *vast* majority of semi-auto rifles from the California market. As far as I can think, there's not a single .223 semi-auto rifle in the US that's commonly available with a fixed mag. So if Ruger were to make a modified bolt (or even just an attached stripped-guide accessory) and a pretty simply modified mag, they could be one of the only games in town for smallbore relatively-EBRs, in a state that's more than 10% of the US population. It's a situation no way comparable to whether Generic Plastic Strike Pistol X makes a CA variant or no.


If anyone wants to try to get 15 years ahead of the curve on CA-compliant guns, I think a lever-action rotary-mag .223 rifle, that takes as many AR15 components as possible (barrels, bolts, forends, not the back part) would be amazing. Like a 21st century Savage 99.

TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Mar 4, 2016

darnon
Nov 8, 2009


Probably simpler to make a pump action to replace the gas system of an AR upper. They already do it with AKs.

People like to stake out weird lines in the sand. Post SAFE Act here you could either register your assault weapons and keep your evil features or slip out of the purview by installing a bullet button or going featureless. Though if you asked on some of the NY forums you were giving in to Cuomo and just as good as turning in your guns going with the former. Meanwhile the same guys were rubbing themselves raw over those goofy tube stocks or convoluted bullet button alternatives (this before the NYSP decided bb's weren't kosher) without any sort of awareness that they were just as much yielding to the demands of the new laws. The game with these states being as much one-upsmanship I don't doubt that the next step might be as extreme as trying to ban all semi-autos or more tightly close owning anything remotely like the really evil actions. At that point it'd be moot whatever bending over backwards you did to make sure you had something built around that oh-so-precious AR lower receiver.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


TapTheForwardAssist posted:

If anyone wants to try to get 15 years ahead of the curve on CA-compliant guns, I think a lever-action rotary-mag .223 rifle, that takes as many AR15 components as possible (barrels, bolts, forends, not the back part) would be amazing. Like a 21st century Savage 99.

No one wants to spend real money trying to "get ahead of the curve" on California gun legislation because A) trying to predict what insanity will make up the legislative landscape in five years is a fool's errand, and B) certain California legislators are intent on banning the things that people who want AR-15s want, without regard to whether it was a good faith attempt to comply with the law; see the current push to ban bullet buttons, a device designed specifically to comply with the feature ban.

That said, Troy is way ahead of you.. The PAR is probably almost as fast as en-blocs if you're keen on 3-gun.

With respect to your earlier question, you could probably buy an AR-15 receiver as a long gun, build it out with a BB, put an upper on it, register it with the State as an AW, then take the upper/buffer/whatever off and throw it in a CA safe deposit box as a hedge. I'd talk to a lawyer before trying those sort of shenanigans though.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Mar 4, 2016

MrTuffPaws
Feb 7, 2005



Some one needs to come up with a 10 round en-bloc taking rifles that is lever action.

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

So buy, slap some poo poo on it, and register it as AW before 2017? how gently caress register?

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


Herr Tog posted:

So buy, slap some poo poo on it, and register it as AW before 2017? how gently caress register?
You can't register a new AW right now, or everyone would do it. If the bill passes in its present form, guns with mag locks/bullet buttons will be defined as assault weapons come Jan 1st of next year, and everyone who legally owns one on Dec 31st of this year will have one year to register. Once your gun is a registered assault weapon, you can't sell or transfer it within California, and there are a bunch of other rules about documentation, transport, etc.

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

Dead Reckoning posted:

You can't register a new AW right now, or everyone would do it. If the bill passes in its present form, guns with mag locks/bullet buttons will be defined as assault weapons come Jan 1st of next year, and everyone who legally owns one on Dec 31st of this year will have one year to register. Once your gun is a registered assault weapon, you can't sell or transfer it within California, and there are a bunch of other rules about documentation, transport, etc.

oh so I should build another now then?

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


Herr Tog posted:

oh so I should build another now then?

I guess if you feel you don't have enough ARs, and want another, that you're never going to be able to sell and will probably have to surrender in ten years, sure.

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

Dead Reckoning posted:

I guess if you feel you don't have enough ARs, and want another, that you're never going to be able to sell and will probably have to surrender in ten years, sure.

Clearly then the state wins.

MrTuffPaws
Feb 7, 2005



Dead Reckoning posted:

I guess if you feel you don't have enough ARs, and want another, that you're never going to be able to sell and will probably have to surrender in ten years, sure.

Unless the Feds say gently caress you, you can't do that, I would expect any semi auto gun in California a temporary owned item, sadly.

Soupisgood
Dec 5, 2012


Dead Reckoning posted:

You can't register a new AW right now, or everyone would do it. If the bill passes in its present form, guns with mag locks/bullet buttons will be defined as assault weapons come Jan 1st of next year, and everyone who legally owns one on Dec 31st of this year will have one year to register. Once your gun is a registered assault weapon, you can't sell or transfer it within California, and there are a bunch of other rules about documentation, transport, etc.

So since it's an assault weapon, you can throw away your bullet button and use whatever magazines you drat well please?

Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



MrTuffPaws posted:

Some one needs to come up with a 10 round en-bloc taking rifles that is lever action.

That or a Johnson style feeding system.

MrTuffPaws
Feb 7, 2005



Soupisgood posted:

So since it's an assault weapon, you can throw away your bullet button and use whatever magazines you drat well please?

Doesn't the bill create a new class of AWs with bullet buttons?

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011


Soupisgood posted:

So since it's an assault weapon, you can throw away your bullet button and use whatever magazines you drat well please?

MrTuffPaws posted:

Doesn't the bill create a new class of AWs with bullet buttons?
Unclear. All the smart folks on CalGuns have a policy of not discussing potential flaws in pending legislation, since they're fairly certain at least one Anti- group monitors the legislation/advocacy section. No matter what, you still can't have 10+ mags, unless they were grandfathered.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

MrTuffPaws
Feb 7, 2005



Certain cities, including LA have outlawed hi caps, so any mag that looks like a hi cap are considered illegal. The state will most likely follow.

  • Locked thread