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MaskedTai
May 30, 2011

Inverse square posted:

Maybe these have already been posted, but if not, I used to write for a site called actionbutton, where God Hand was the omega and super mario bros. was the alpha:

http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=541 - reviewed by ario barzan. Probably the most serious one!
http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=999 - reviewed by me. Warning: long
http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=645 - reviewed by Tim Rogers. Actually, very short!
http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=120 - reviewed by Christian McCrea

Oh hey! Tim Rogers' review of God Hand is probably my favorite piece of content related to the game. I'd played this game previously, but showing the video of that review to a friend of mine got me to buy a copy for him, as my way of passing it around.

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EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.
I am consistently amused by all of the 'Where's Gene' con photos.

The orange hair one was misleading though. I thought gene was the dude in the orange coat on the right. Nope! That was wrong.

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.
I think Rogers et al are going for some sort of gonzo game journalism as a writing style, which is great if you're interested in that stuff(and agree with the author's opinion) and terrible if you want actual, y'know, game reviews.

Inverse square
Jan 21, 2008
Ah but you see I was an 06 lurker

mkob posted:

I see a lot of back and white as in I hate/I love, but not enough neutral and grey opinions. Sure you can praise God Hand for its soundtrack, sound design, polished animations, the overall gameplay, the fact that this is a love letter to the arcade brawler genre, etc. but don't forget about its horrible graphics, shallow story and random referential humor (people might call it memes nowadays), uninspired level design and (demon) damage-sponge boss fights, the awkward tank controls and faulty lock-on, the lack of audio cues for long range attacks and off-screen enemies, the non sensical ramp up in difficulty during the later stages, etc. what I'm trying to say is no matter how much I might enjoy playing this video game I will never blindly defend it, as I can still see and acknowledge its many flaws.

A piece of writing that took a deep look at the lock-on, audio cues, and boss design would be a good thing, and I can especially see why *you* would want that, as a person who has looked long and hard at this game (I would defend the tank controls and ramp up though - though I think the music is rubbish!).

But God Hand is more than the sum of its good and bad parts, right? It's even more than just a really good beat-em-up. God Hand, for example, is a reflection on the career of Shinji Mikami, it's proof that third person action games don't need to give the right analogue stick to camera control, etc.

It seems clear to me that God Hand is also a product in which it doesn't matter, even the tiniest bit, that the story and graphics aren't so good. In another game, it might matter, but not in this one. I feel like the only reason a reviewer would bring that up would be if it was on a list of checkboxes they had been given - and that is often literally the case with game reviewers, which we saw as a problem. There are many interesting ways of looking at the game, and that's what we wanted to do. Though I get that this will just come off as posturing if you don't find our remarks interesting!

Inverse square fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Mar 13, 2016

Fabulousvillain
May 2, 2015
Nah, God Hand's a silly video game with "hard-but-fair" design in theory anyway. Also graphics matter in this the same as any other game, just because it looks like rear end but is fun to play doesn't make it art.

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!
Lipstick Apathy
This game feels like somebody's pet project that got made despite tremendous setbacks, I'll always respect it for that. It's incredible that it ever got put on store shelves in the first place.

Inverse square
Jan 21, 2008
Ah but you see I was an 06 lurker
I just remembered that Erik Wolpaw reckons it's the best game of all time. By all means complain about my hipster ego, but you should probably take Erik "Psychonauts, Portal, OldManMurray" Wolpaw seriously!

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!
Lipstick Apathy
I thought that guy was a writer, not a game designer.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

mkob posted:

the awkward tank controls
Are you saying the tank controls are the problem or the awkwardness?

Either way I'm not sure I agree. The tank controls are an integral part of the game and is there even such a thing as non-awkward tank controls?

rotinaj
Sep 5, 2008

Fun Shoe
I have a friend who likes to argue with me that tough-to-master but solid controls like God Hand or Dark Souls mean bad game design, because you can just as easily make the character quick, zippy, and easier to control like, say, Metal Gear Rising Revengeance.

I disagree with him, and believe that if the controls do exactly what you tell them to do once you understand how they work, they are good game design.

Random_Username
Jan 1, 2013
I have to wonder if IGN's review ended up doing Godhand a favor ultimately? Diehard fans of this kind of game would have found it regardless, but I think part of it's cult appeal now is skillfull players showing off all the cool stuff in the game, sort of in defiance of the 3/10.

That review is infamous now, but how many people would've cared if the game got a 7/10 like it probably realistically deserves?

Inverse square
Jan 21, 2008
Ah but you see I was an 06 lurker

rotinaj posted:

I have a friend who likes to argue with me that tough-to-master but solid controls like God Hand or Dark Souls mean bad game design, because you can just as easily make the character quick, zippy, and easier to control like, say, Metal Gear Rising Revengeance.

I disagree with him, and believe that if the controls do exactly what you tell them to do once you understand how they work, they are good game design.

It is much *easier* to make a game with instant reactions and everything-cancels-everything. Devs use attacks with delayed reactions, loosely, to introduce planning into an encounter (or to make the animation look cooler, which is indeed crap). In Castlevania, swinging your whip takes a second, and in Doom, rockets travel slow enough that you have to think about how the time they spend in the air. Then you can contrast and prioritize "slow but powerful" with "fast but weak" attacks in a game = depth! Immediate-reaction games are a very wortwhile thing, but for him to say that all beat-em-ups should be like that is silly. And I'll bet that if you look through the games he likes, you'll find some which have delays, which he just doesn't consciously acknowledge.

Warren Waters
Feb 27, 2011

Inverse square posted:

It is much *easier* to make a game with instant reactions and everything-cancels-everything. Devs use attacks with delayed reactions, loosely, to introduce planning into an encounter (or to make the animation look cooler, which is indeed crap). In Castlevania, swinging your whip takes a second, and in Doom, rockets travel slow enough that you have to think about how the time they spend in the air. Then you can contrast and prioritize "slow but powerful" with "fast but weak" attacks in a game = depth! Immediate-reaction games are a very wortwhile thing, but for him to say that all beat-em-ups should be like that is silly. And I'll bet that if you look through the games he likes, you'll find some which have delays, which he just doesn't consciously acknowledge.

Yeah, there's a giant gap between a platinum game where you deal with attacks by canceling your own attacks into a dodge, and a souls game where you can only dodge by not attacking. It's delivering on a completely different experience, where patience and planning are just as rewarding as good timing.

The funny part is that God Hand is much more like Bayonetta than dark souls. gently caress it, updodge everything.

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!
Lipstick Apathy
Animation lock sucks and it baffles me that so many people that about Dark Souls. I mean it's good in other ways but I hate the combat.

Sir Ilpalazzo
Sep 4, 2012

notZaar posted:

Animation lock sucks and it baffles me that so many people that about Dark Souls. I mean it's good in other ways but I hate the combat.

There's nothing inherently wrong with locking you into animations. It's certainly something that can be implemented in sloppy ways but it's a fine way to encourage tactical play.

Warren Waters
Feb 27, 2011

Sir Ilpalazzo posted:

There's nothing inherently wrong with locking you into animations. It's certainly something that can be implemented in sloppy ways but it's a fine way to encourage tactical play.

This. Tactical play is exactly the point.
One of the first things DS1 teaches you is that an enemy that walks forward and attacks when in range is much less effective than an enemy that walks forward and waits for you to make a mistake.
It's also worth mentioning that attack animations totally have recovery that can be cancelled only into another attack or a roll. It was nerfed for the sequel in part because punishing rolls was way, way harder than rolling.
If you treat Souls combat like a primer on Street Fighter footsies (where jumping equates to rolling) it starts making a ton of sense; this enemy has no poise and gets counterhit for free every time, this other enemy has no range and gets whiff punished for free, this other enemy likes to block and gets kicked in the face, this other enemy has a regular attack timing, parry that poo poo!

EDIT: I will say, though, that leaving it to the player to figure all this out is probably one of the game's larger failures. I don't even know if the game tells you that counterhits do more damage, for example.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying
And among all the other good reasons you pretty much have to have animation lock if you have PvP, even Platinum acknowledges that.

Inverse square
Jan 21, 2008
Ah but you see I was an 06 lurker
For whoever's interested, my friend Ben Ruiz's blog is the best writing I've seen on single player combat design. He's got a post that is relevant to this topic: https://aztez.com/blog/2012/05/24/the-amalur-problem/

More:
https://aztez.com/blog/category/combat-analysis/
https://aztez.com/blog/category/beat-em-ups/

Inverse square fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Mar 15, 2016

mkob
Feb 23, 2013

Inverse square posted:

I just remembered that Erik Wolpaw reckons it's the best game of all time. By all means complain about my hipster ego, but you should probably take Erik "Psychonauts, Portal, OldManMurray" Wolpaw seriously!

Considering this guy's credentials, he's most than probably joking about it. God Hand could be Barack Obama's favorite video games and it wouldn't mean a thing. Something you seem to forget -- or not even be aware of -- is how God Hand has been in everyone's top 5 video game list for 10 years now. Go on youtube right now, click on any God Hand walkthrough video part 1 and I can guarantee you that the player will say that this is one of their favorite video game ever. Appeal to authority doesn't work here. No one --apart from a couple asian players-- ever understood how the juggle system and counter hit systems worked in this game, or even did any research on it. No one understood the mindset you need to get in to play this game, just like people, me included at the time, who dissed Bayonetta 1 for being too different from the devil may cry series as I was confused and overwhelemed by the new mechanics. I'm not saying people can't enjoy a game if they're bad at it and are just button mashing, my point is that people never dug into God Hand's (very basic) mechanics and truly showcased what it had to offer. I'm not asking people to sink hours into the game and become hardcore about it, I just want them to get good so that they can somewhat enjoy the combat system instead of relying on boring prehistoric spamming tactics. Quick reminder, the only documentation available about this game in the past 10 years were cheesing techniques and speedrunning strategies before Alps and myself came out of the woodwork.

Sindai posted:

Are you saying the tank controls are the problem or the awkwardness?

Either way I'm not sure I agree. The tank controls are an integral part of the game and is there even such a thing as non-awkward tank controls?

You answered your own question.

Inverse square posted:

For whoever's interested, my friend Ben Ruiz's blog is the best writing I've seen on single player combat design. He's got a post that is relevant to this topic: https://aztez.com/blog/2012/05/24/the-amalur-problem/

Ben Ruiz is an alright guy, I've been playing Aztez recently and the controls are very solid and smooth, I hope his game turns out ok. For those who missed it Ben was in an interview with yoshesque and Saur last month or so where they took the piss out of the action game spectacle genre.

Inverse square
Jan 21, 2008
Ah but you see I was an 06 lurker
Relax man :P I was just trying to combat the suggestion that actionbutton folks only worshipped God Hand because it was "hip". I guess I only wanted to do that because I wasn't aware that God Hand was on a lot of "top 5" lists! I don't think Erik Wolpaw is joking though (though not that it matters, right?)

Inverse square fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Mar 15, 2016

mkob
Feb 23, 2013

I am perfectly zen and relaxed, see pic related for proof. You made your point, now would be a good time for you to stop shilling random stuff that indeed don't matter. Also check your hipster privilege or something.

gigglefeimer
Mar 16, 2007

mkob posted:

I'm not saying people can't enjoy a game if they're bad at it and are just button mashing, my point is that people never dug into God Hand's (very basic) mechanics and truly showcased what it had to offer. I'm not asking people to sink hours into the game and become hardcore about it, I just want them to get good so that they can somewhat enjoy the combat system instead of relying on boring prehistoric spamming tactics. Quick reminder, the only documentation available about this game in the past 10 years were cheesing techniques and speedrunning strategies before Alps and myself came out of the woodwork.

The reason practically nobody has dug into the mechanics of God Hand is because it isn't a hardcore game. You're never forced to learn much about the combat system when you can spam god hand mode, spam roulettes, and spam regular attacks while not being threatened in the slightest. The game never even discourages this kind of play. Throw in the self-proclaimed "hard but fair" moniker, and people who do like the game feel like it's impossible to win without their cheesy spammy tactics because the game is just so hard, man. They don't even bother to try to get better at the game.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Youre right, there isnt much in the way of incentive. Even KMS only stops you from god handing and roulettes, it doesnt discourage cheese spam.
The addition of a style meter would have given so much incentive to vary your attacks.
Give extra on counters and juggles.
Tie it to god hand regen rate at lower difficulties. Roulettes and god hand give no style, that sort of thing.

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!
Lipstick Apathy
I don't buy that. You could just as easily argue that DMC isn't a hardcore game because you can spam Devil Trigger and items to win.

yoshesque
Dec 19, 2010

gigglefeimer posted:

The reason practically nobody has dug into the mechanics of God Hand is because it isn't a hardcore game. You're never forced to learn much about the combat system when you can spam god hand mode, spam roulettes, and spam regular attacks while not being threatened in the slightest. The game never even discourages this kind of play. Throw in the self-proclaimed "hard but fair" moniker, and people who do like the game feel like it's impossible to win without their cheesy spammy tactics because the game is just so hard, man. They don't even bother to try to get better at the game.

This is like saying that someone who spammed durga bombs and PKP with Shuraba in Bayonetta has played the game to its full extent. Sure, it gets the job done, but it's not a true representation of what the game has to offer. Smashing your head against a wall and saying that you beat the game is all fine and dandy, but you haven't actually tried to learn the game at all. I'm not saying people who cheesed their way through God Hand and enjoyed it are wrong for doing so, but I understand Mike's frustrations when he talks about people not digging into the game.

Why did nobody dig into God Hand's mechanics? It sure as heck wasn't because it's not a hardcore game (wtf does this mean anyway). Sure, a lack of incentive plays into this, but surely nobody really thought that being good at God Hand boiled down to Chain Yanker + YMK + HSK spam.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

yoshesque posted:

This is like saying that someone who spammed durga bombs and PKP with Shuraba in Bayonetta has played the game to its full extent. Sure, it gets the job done, but it's not a true representation of what the game has to offer. Smashing your head against a wall and saying that you beat the game is all fine and dandy, but you haven't actually tried to learn the game at all. I'm not saying people who cheesed their way through God Hand and enjoyed it are wrong for doing so, but I understand Mike's frustrations when he talks about people not digging into the game.

Why did nobody dig into God Hand's mechanics? It sure as heck wasn't because it's not a hardcore game (wtf does this mean anyway). Sure, a lack of incentive plays into this, but surely nobody really thought that being good at God Hand boiled down to Chain Yanker + YMK + HSK spam.

you know if that does get you Pure Platinums then that makes my style meter argument sorta null.


I'd like to believe it's because of one or all of these:
a) It never got a wide enough playerbase and dedicated community ala DMC.
b) The minority of that minority of Players who did experiment didn't share/had no reason to/didnt have a way to/didnt get into wide circulation... until recently. As far as I can tell Mkob and Alps are pretty much the first to really document/display this extensively.
c) the unique control scheme and moveset customization makes it harder to transfer skills over from other games, which is probably the biggest reason why Bayo got it's cheap tactics exposed so quickly, an army of DMC3/4 players got onto it from the get go, much like fighting games get their character playstyles set within the first month or so. (I think your guests touched on that in the TagClimax podcast)



notZaar posted:

I don't buy that. You could just as easily argue that DMC isn't a hardcore game because you can spam Devil Trigger and items to win.

DMC heavily penalizes you for the latter though. in God hand you could go through killing everything with roulettes and god hand and get smacked around, spending the entire game at level 1, and it would still treat you the same. There are no usable in-game rewards for stylish play.

Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Mar 16, 2016

gigglefeimer
Mar 16, 2007

yoshesque posted:

This is like saying that someone who spammed durga bombs and PKP with Shuraba in Bayonetta has played the game to its full extent. Sure, it gets the job done, but it's not a true representation of what the game has to offer. Smashing your head against a wall and saying that you beat the game is all fine and dandy, but you haven't actually tried to learn the game at all. I'm not saying people who cheesed their way through God Hand and enjoyed it are wrong for doing so, but I understand Mike's frustrations when he talks about people not digging into the game.

Why did nobody dig into God Hand's mechanics? It sure as heck wasn't because it's not a hardcore game (wtf does this mean anyway). Sure, a lack of incentive plays into this, but surely nobody really thought that being good at God Hand boiled down to Chain Yanker + YMK + HSK spam.

That's literally what people thought.

It's the game's fault that it doesn't encourage high level play. Why do things the hard way when the game offers so many easy ways out?

Edit: Basically from what I used to see, people treated God Hand like a JRPG, where the "best" players had knowledge of all the cheap tactics. Anyone who ignored those things and tried to deeply engage the mechanics were seen like weird challenge run players

gigglefeimer fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Mar 16, 2016

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!
Lipstick Apathy
Almost every game will give the player crutches to help, save for some of those obscure bullet hell shmups. It doesn't mean you have to play like a cripple.

Sir Ilpalazzo
Sep 4, 2012

notZaar posted:

Almost every game will give the player crutches to help, save for some of those obscure bullet hell shmups. It doesn't mean you have to play like a cripple.

Even those games give you "crutches" - what else would you call bombs? Although of course their role varies from game to game.

I get where gigglefeimer is coming from. God Hand gives you plenty of crutches - more than a lot of action games do, really - and doesn't do much of anything to discourage you from using them (like how a lot of action games will use ranking systems to discourage item use, or to try to force you to use your moveset in interesting ways instead of going for maximum efficiency, like in Bayonetta or Devil May Cry 3 / 4). In that regard you could say it's not a "hardcore" game, because most people with functioning hands, eyes, and brains (and a decent amount of video game experience) can beat the game through casual, fairly undedicated play, and since there's no ranking system, there's nothing to strive for after that beyond self-improvement (which a lot of people aren't going to be interested in). However, by that metric, most action games are fairly "casual" anyway, only made especially difficult through their ranking systems and the occasional rough hardest difficulty mode.

CptWedgie
Jul 19, 2015

Sir Ilpalazzo posted:

Even those games give you "crutches" - what else would you call bombs? Although of course their role varies from game to game.

I get where gigglefeimer is coming from. God Hand gives you plenty of crutches - more than a lot of action games do, really - and doesn't do much of anything to discourage you from using them (like how a lot of action games will use ranking systems to discourage item use, or to try to force you to use your moveset in interesting ways instead of going for maximum efficiency, like in Bayonetta or Devil May Cry 3 / 4). In that regard you could say it's not a "hardcore" game, because most people with functioning hands, eyes, and brains (and a decent amount of video game experience) can beat the game through casual, fairly undedicated play, and since there's no ranking system, there's nothing to strive for after that beyond self-improvement (which a lot of people aren't going to be interested in). However, by that metric, most action games are fairly "casual" anyway, only made especially difficult through their ranking systems and the occasional rough hardest difficulty mode.

Personally, I call bombs "consumables." They don't qualify as "crutches" unless you get an infinite supply.

Also, one way God Hand encourages you to mix your move-set up a bit: It looks cooler that way than to use a minimalist, "pure efficiency" approach (which gets boring after the first couple stages, I'd expect, completely aside from HSK cheesing).

gigglefeimer
Mar 16, 2007
Honestly, the 3.0 from ign is bs, but some of the points in the review are not too far off base. Like, everything besides the combat is lacking, god hand mode and roulettes are all flash and little substance, the game can get button mash-y, you're at the mercy of luck with demon spawns, etc.

I still had a ton of fun playing it. Scoring consecutive counter hits and just blowing away entire groups of enemies was really satisfying. And the variety and responsiveness of all the dodges makes you almost forget about the awkward tank controls. It just felt like I wasn't playing the game the way it was intended by ignoring the god hand, roulettes, and a good chunk of the techniques for being too overpowering.

Sir Ilpalazzo
Sep 4, 2012

CptWedgie posted:

Personally, I call bombs "consumables." They don't qualify as "crutches" unless you get an infinite supply.

Also, one way God Hand encourages you to mix your move-set up a bit: It looks cooler that way than to use a minimalist, "pure efficiency" approach (which gets boring after the first couple stages, I'd expect, completely aside from HSK cheesing).

Right, and personally I agree. A lot of the enjoyment in action games like these comes from using your large toolsets to beat enemies in ways that look cool - so high side kick spamming or similar tactics, while efficient, aren't really interesting to use because they aren't exciting to look at. But regardless, I don't think that's really a great argument. Ultimately it's a mistake on the game designers' part if the most effective way to succeed isn't also the most fun or natural-feeling way to play. I think God Hand is still an amazing game because most of the totally busted poo poo is fairly ignorable, though. It's more flawed than Devil May Cry or maybe Bayonetta, but I think it's ultimately better than either.

mkob
Feb 23, 2013

It keeps happening ahhh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul8z6dYAEsU

George
Nov 27, 2004

No love for your made-up things.
This is a really good game.

gigglefeimer
Mar 16, 2007
At a certain point I just entirely moved away from using regular punches and guard breakers. I preferred to have every technique in my moveset, including the 6 move square combo, some sort of launch/juggle/knockdown effect. The whole guard breaking game just gets tedious as hell. Double spin kick gets a pass for being so stylish

mkob
Feb 23, 2013

Update #48



Stage 7-4 The Mirage Town & 7-5 The Four Devas' Leader

Moveset used

Maps & demon bosses



Featuring special guest Spacekop

Digital Jello
Nov 2, 2012

Now I have a machine gun. Ho! Ho! Ho!
I love the cartoonish and corny "alien" music that plays when you fight Demon Belze. It kinda reminds you, the player, that no matter how serious-minded and challenging the endgame may be getting, it still holds its goofball charm. Also, as usual, I had a lot of trouble on this guy's demon form (like Elvis and Shannon's demon forms too. I really don't know why.)

mkob
Feb 23, 2013

Oh yeah I'm with you, I really like that song too. Speaking of Belze, I forgot to mention something about his right hook stomp attack and how sometimes it will hit you even though you try to up-dodge it. For some reason he has two right hook attacks and one of them feels more janky than the other, as in you can't dodge it by ducking. On DIE difficulty it's quasi impossible to distinguish those two attacks due to their fast startup animation, you'll get hit by it and lose half your HP. Pretty dumb as I believe it is one of the few truly broken attack in this game. When people started asking for a PC port of God Hand on PC (??) on the Capcom forums, someone mentioned how this very attack needed to be patched. I don't know why I remembered that but I do, kind of an odd request out of all the things you could ask for if the game was remastered. But yeah this stomp attack is broken.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.



Thank you KFJ for demonstrating what the Godhand would look like in real life.

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A Bystander
Oct 10, 2012
The hardest part about fighting Belze is paying enough attention to care about fighting him. Though the fights after him are way more interesting and make up for such a boring boss fight.

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