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Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

I always felt that (apart from the DLC which we will get to) Bioshock Infinite got overly maligned simply due to being overshadowed separate by 1 and 2, 1 had a more cohesive world and story and 2 had (in my opinion) better combat game play (barring the far too sparse air rail segments) so it was too painfully :mediocre: for some so it got the hype backlash. It also commits the sin of any game with RPG elements by making you get less stuff to get powers in the harder difficulties if my memory isn't betraying me.

i'll personally never forgive the gutting of 1999 mode, or the later vox uprising chapters

Fake Edit:

kalonZombie posted:

The game doesn't have a story quite at 1's calibur, and gameplay not quite as good as 2's, but overall is a better experience than both of them.
See this guy agrees with me.

As for the tipping your seat, maybe its to get rid of any loose elements that might jostle about and cause injury during the flight?

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Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

FoolyCharged posted:

Nah, the true reason is that the lead designer's boss made him build it in because the boss decided that everyone should be able to look at the rocket engines because it would be cool.

My backup answer was "Put the fear of god into the Pilgrim".

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

The problem is that fight had 2 settings:

1. You blitzed it down before it could do anything funky

2. You got mobbed by ghost adds and had to deal with hell on earth.

There really wasn't an in between, it's kinda how most of Bioshock infinite was especially on 1999 mode: You could either utterly dominate an encounter say with the infectious crow storm buildup or you got beat down hard.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

berryjon posted:

I played through this game, and after it ended I could only make one serious observation.

Someone was playing a lot of Marathon Infinity while making it. And it shows once things start going sideways.

Perhaps they Marathoned it during development?

But about the game, this opening segment is interesting and depending on your view a strength or weakness of the game. On the one hand neither Bioshock 1 or 2 before it had you explore the setting either in it's prime or in a way that wasn't wrench/drill first ask questions later and it's really neat to see people who don't want to stab you.

Ooon the other hand it kinda starts to make it feel odd when these lovely streets you've been wandering about suddenly become devoid of people and filled with murderous coppers.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

berryjon posted:

Your pun hurts me physically. Really, it does.

I'm Glad, I'll make a note to pun up your Homeworld 2 thread later.

HopperUK posted:

Maybe it's a previous iteration of Booker who hosed up real bad.

The other explanation is he's the lighthouse keeper, I mean barring the Lutece's telling you the password someone else would have to remember it to access the space pod thing. Later in the game we also see in their lab the lighthouse circled "Only one obstacle" written in red and it's safe to assume that getting rid of him (who might stop booker) and sending a message to Booker (To help create this memory) at once would be useful.

Roman Reigns posted:

I get that, and as people have posted its probably the Luteces who did it, but they never come across to me as the type to get their hands bloody. Its just something that never really gets touched on in the game.

They explicitly do in the second burial at Sea DLC They set up Fitzroy to die to help Elizabeth learn to be a killer

Stormgale fucked around with this message at 12:02 on May 26, 2015

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010


Everything is out to sea when you are with father Comstock, rising above the sea of sin in the sodom below.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Ghost Stromboli posted:

Most of us at that moment are already well aware we are about to fight palette-swapped enemies for the next half of the game or so. Plus it sort of seemed like the game didn't need the rebellion, unless I'm forgetting some sort of significance it's supposed to have that ties into everything else.

The rebellion's only narrative purpose is to act as a catalyst for the "Elizabeth does universe shifting and makes everything worse", you could replace the rebellion with anything else and it'd have the same narrative impact. The only saving grace of that whole segment is the audio logs with that 1 trapper "Big game hunter" archetype fellow who is great.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Kurieg posted:

And to show Elizabeth's naivete considering she learned everything she needs to know about rebellions from reading Les Miserables.

I feel that was kinda shown better by the beach chapter and 90% of her interactions in there, by that point her naivete had been all ready established.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

pumpinglemma posted:

Oh god, tell me about it. On the one side, we have generations of literal slavery. On the other side, we have the leader of the slave uprising killing one of the single biggest culprits in a slightly nasty way and trying to kill his apparently innocent son. Clearly both sides are equally in the wrong, and we must exterminate both to the last man. Bonus points for depicting the black people as savage and animalistic, exactly in line with the horribly racist society's stereotypes!

(Yes I did sit around doing nothing for a while hoping I could save Daisy's life over the kid's, why do you ask?)

Oh don't worry friend... that entire scene gets even better if you ever played burial at sea She was setup by the lutece's (though she agreed) to martyr herself to make Elizabeth a killer, she never intended to hurt the kid but was willing to die to get Comstock via Booker and Elizabeth)

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

I feel the opposite mean in Bioshock 1 the player Plasmid powers are a massive part of examining the setting and how it functions: How an objectivist "utopia" would deal with that sort of genetic power. The problem with Vigors in 2 is actually what you said, they don't really ft into the world and have cool powers and the lazy "It's Plasmids but somehow without any of the downsides" answer only worsens it. Compare this to the musician brother using the portals to steal music and adapting it fits in well with the setting as the setting has informed the theft and made a balance between the original element and the Columbia version. While the songs are out of place to us they are still altered by Columbia (by changing genre/performance method for example) and the same with songbird, songbird is still a big daddy in it's role (protect a little girl at all costs and be a tough foe) but it's an avenging angel that fits Columbia's themes and setting more.

I've thought a lot about how Vigors could more suit Columbia as a setting but that's just dumb backseat development

N.B. Here Matt lees talks alot of the points that I feel are weakness' of Bioshock infinite and I feel this is a good examination of the games faults for anyone who wants a far more reasoned eloquent explanation than I can muster.

Edit: I know I don't need to tag spoilers but obviously the video talks alot about elements of the game and shows later scenes/setpieces so if you want to keep yourself unspoiled/experience things as the lp goes on.

Stormgale fucked around with this message at 23:09 on May 28, 2015

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

PlaceholderPigeon posted:

I was more complaining about the trying to adapt something from Bioshock rather than making Vigors a thing on their own.

I agree, Plasmids being tied into the story was better. But I think in the case of Vigors, since they aren't tied to the story really its awkward that they half-try, rather than just letting them be there. I suppose they sort of have to explain it a little though, but I think making them unique to Columbia would have been better even if it wasnt as good of an explanation compared to Plasmids.

Yeah sorry I think we are agreeing with each other here, I feel that when you try to tie things together working it into the narrative or letting the setting inform it (like with songbird) is better.

Anyway to talk more about the game we have seen so far and quote the video I feel one of the weirdest thing about giving Booker a voice and character is how... little he has to say with all the passing people around here. I mean this would have been a great place to flesh out who he was and how he acts but he really doesn't talk much when presented with all this incidental dialogue

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

By the way, does anyone dislike the Luteces? Because I think that's the only opinion about BI that hasn't been expressed at this point. Constants and variables indeed...

They fit right into the lovely supporting character niche of having an amusing gimmick and not showing up enough to wear it thin, see enjoyable side characters from almost any other "Bad" narrative.

I love them just wanted to maybe examine why no one really hates them

Edit: Garrand knows whats up.

Stormgale fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 29, 2015

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Kurieg posted:

Though that does raise the question of where the hell Fink is getting that much goddamn Adam.

Infinite universes of sea floor slugs to harvest + not really thinking about vigors.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

bhlaab posted:

You mean if you take System Shock 2 and make it worse you get Bioshock

I think the argument is if you look at how you interact with the gamespace, like the specific core game loop and gameplay.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010


By the way Bobbin I showed your History corner to my PhD historian friend and the only bit he took issue with was your statement r.e. the Slave trade having died out in western Europe, slavery was a pretty consistent thing all through history and the concept of treating those with black skin as lesser and worthy of being slaves entered the European Conciousness from Muslim cultures in Northern Africa, which then culturally migrated to Spain and Portugal and thus influenced their decision of who and what to use as slaves as Portugal and spain were big exporters in that area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnV_MTFEGIY quick source he shared with me that goes into some detail of the slave trade.

Panderfringe posted:

I would disagree with your notion that it was some sort of moral awakening on the part of Europe that saw slavery largely outlawed. There was a spreading of certain ideas sparked by the French Revolution which made the practice of outright slavery politically untenable, but also thanks to industrialization it was becoming economically problematic for European metropoles. I imagine that slavery would be abolished eventually, but if it weren't for industrialization and a certain French warlord it would have taken a lot longer.

He also pointed out the Economic vs Moral argument for why slavery was abolished is one of the most hotly contested historical points on the topic.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

Plus I don't think it could have been an entirely racial thing if Oroonoko was able to become and remain popular for a full 100 years before Britain outlawed slavery (and this despite being Monarchist propaganda in what was by then a constitutional monarchy).

I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said here, the minor point of contention is that western Europe had this "Break" from slavery that you discuss, Portugal and Spain had contact with it via these North african states where slavery was still practiced. (basically i'm being a pretentious prat and arguing with a minor point because it's interesting). I'm arguing that slavery as an institution in the Colonies was not so harsh because Europe had forgotten the horror's of it, but because it in fact remembered the Worst points of slavery systems before it (plantations from the Romans, using the texts of North African Arab's to justify the racial element) and worked like many things by people who wish to profit from it.

Balqis posted:

Medieval and Renaissance Europe did not have large amounts of contact with Africans, but most portrayals of them were generally positive (Prester John, Melchior). The exception to this was post Reconquista Spain and Portugal, who had access to Arabic writings about slavery and the traditions surrounding Africans. Some African slaves are put to work in Spain, but it really does not pick up until the Azores and the Canary Islands are colonized and African slaves are used en masse as a cheap workforce. They justify this with the beliefs taken from those Islamic texts, but wholly ignore all the writings that argued against this. Nor do they have the religious interdiction to not enslaves brothers of faith. This pattern continued with their American colonization, and other European powers picked it up (and the beliefs) to compete.

400 years later of using the same arguments to justify, in turn, the Atlantic Slave Trade, slavery in America, and institutional racism in America (hell, my granddad believed in the Curse of Ham), and you have today.

TL;DR People will ignore dissenting, logical opinions if it costs them money, and will transmit fantastically laughable ideas if it makes them a buck.

See this is it said much better.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

That shooting during the first firefight you couldn't explain was most likely GHOST GUNS from the gear you picked up which I suppose is a time to take a slight detour to talk about gear:

Gear comes in 4 slots (head shirt pants boots) and is semi random (most gear's locations are completely random though some (such as the DLC items and specific Items) are fixed)

Gear is pretty broken both in how powerful it can be (particular standouts include: Killing enemies has a chance to give you salt, Elemental effects spread when you kill an enemy with them on etc) and just the Randomness making your play through unique but not in a fun way, because some of them are kinda bad, some are fun but rarely used (anything to do with sky hooks) and some are boring.

You have to compare say, getting 40% chance to get more salt from every kill and 50% more head shot damage to "You accelerate/decelerate faster on sky hooks"

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

anilEhilated posted:

Some of them lead to hilariously broken combinations too. And I'm talking stuff like oneshotting a boss on the hardest difficulty with one melee hit.
But yeah, most of the time you have to decide between fun and useful. It's a good thing the game isn't exactly hard so you can screw around with the effects.

My personal favorite 4 slot combo is

50% more headshot damage
killing someone who is under the effect of fire/lightning/bronco (the lifty one bobbin showed in the fair) spreads it around
Killing a guy gives you salt
Killing a guy with Excessive damage stuns everyone around them

Combine that with the crow upgrade to make it spread around and you just crowd control an entire fight in 2-3 moves, mop up at leisure.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Moskau posted:

Winter Shield is super useful though, especially on the hardest difficulty. It completely trivializes any combat segment with rails, a bit situation but quite a number of the tough fights have rails.

Oh yeah but how many sky rail segments are there in the game, I can think of 5 off hand (1 being right at endgame)

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

Also, Booker is not the hero of the story. He's the protagonist, but there's a difference. I'll be getting into the details once we pass the "poo poo hits the fan" moment, but the short of it is that I believe one of BSI's Points is the same as Spec Ops: The Line, and as such the gratuitous violence is intended to be past the point of discomfort.

I know you're going to go into detail later but i'm not sure this holds water (I agree that Booker isn't a hero but):

We have a lot of scenes that contrast the ultra violence with Booker such as how he acts around Elizabeth and that (loving awful) guitar scene that kinda don't mesh well with the ultra violence.

The way your opponents are almost always humanoid kill robots who exist only to make you dead (you can argue this is game play fighting against story but still it kinda messes up the point).

and (Burial at sea chat)

The fact that Elizabeth becomes just as capable of that gruesome violence later on

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

Counterpoints: just because Booker is not a hero does not mean he cannot be a human and thus have contrasting moments, and while a story (generally) needs a protagonist, it does not necessarily need a hero.

Perhaps I could phrase it better as I feel even with this argument it's incongruous in tone for the game, Booker's actions and overall intent (Get the girl erase the debt) and how he acts early on is far better at painting him as not a hero than the over the top violence of the melee kills. The violence in turn contrasts badly in ways such as the suicidal 100% murder cops vs trying to show Columbia as a living breathing place with people that act like people.

Do I think Booker is a hero (no, and the ending kind of shows that in the solution to the game's core hurdle to overcome) but i'm not sure the violence works either as a tool to further that statement or as a part of the game as a whole.

As for something else people were mentioning bullet spongy enemies in the game and this article here (warnign kotaku) has bits about Bioshock Infinite, and how the bullet spongy enemies were due to console limitations limiting the amount of enemies they could have so Their durability had to be increased.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

bassguitarhero posted:

I don't think making your main playable character also not the hero is ever really going to work because, unlike films or books where you just follow what's already there, with video games the player has to put significant amounts of effort into keeping their character alive. That's going to build a bond that allows the viewer to just ignore whatever bad things they've done for the sake of survival. But that's just my take having seen Spec Ops: The Line and played Bioshock Infinite

Depending on the tone this can work fine: Overlord is a game where you are the villain among villains and it's ok because it isn't trying to be a serious drama, Prototype (1) has you playing alex I am the worst human alive except he's not human Mercer.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Kloro posted:

At least the first Prototype does seem to realise that you are actually a villain. The sequel has you doing all the same horrible stuff but insists that you're a hero.


Bluhman posted:

The thing about Overlord is, throughout both of the main games, you're mostly going after people who are veritably worse jerks than you. At the very least, you're honest about your intentions to conquer or murder people with your moniker, while the people you're up against are basically all heroes that became corrupt, culminating in you trying to fight someone intent on rising and becoming a dark god of magic. The game probably could've worked even if the whole story had been framed more seriously, but they opted to make you and your cute minions more charming. In general, though, that's how you make villain protagonist games work: You just make the antagonist someone who either has/is going to do worse stuff than you, or make them somebody who has personally wronged the protagonist in the past.

Sorry yeah this is my point, Prototype 1 goes semi serious and goes "Your a horrible person go nuts" and Overlord is Very much "You are bad, they are worse" both of which work but I feel Bioshock Infinite never is sure how to portray booker, with the ham handed stealing mechanic, the way he fights and acts sometimes being diametrically opposed and type of enemies you fight just becomes a bit of a mess and that's before we reach the bits of the game I think are objectively bad/mishandled.

I mean so far here is what we know about Booker and columbia:

He has some form of debt and is on a mission to repay it.
He will most likely get murdered if he does not find this girl.
Almost everyone here is racist.
The Cops will charge a man (some with billy clubs) who has salt powers and is armed enough to have all ready killed many of their number and some vigor enhanced combatants and not stop fighting till he murders them all.

I'm going to probably bring this up alot but emphasizing the way the cult like power of Comstock and the sort of divine fervor that would entail would do a lot to help explain why a lot of these things happen (there is a scene relatively soon that does this but i'll talk about it when we get there). For all of it's faults Bioshock 2 made it quite clear why people were willing to die for Sofia lamb in the way her for lack of a better word scripture and ideology was plastered all over the world and the sense she was always watching/cajoling the splicers to do her bidding. In this game they feel like regular cops (who are racist) and who want you dead at near suicidal cost, these aren't portrayed desperate people defending their city from (who they see as) Satan or as religious Zealouts.

I'm probably talking out my rear end here but I hope that made some sense.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Kangra posted:

I honestly think one of the silliest things about the 'False Shepherd' idea is that Booker isn't leading people astray or preaching a false gospel or anything like that. Maybe you can shoehorn kidnapping a girl into being a false shepherd for her, but the title seems inappropriate. He's a force of death and destruction, not a deceiver.

Additionally, a lot of the problems with looking at his violent nature relative to the story is that the game is trying to be coy about the truth. So neither the PC's nor the enemies' motivations are very clear. Which means at the start the constabulary is out to kill you because you're the one they're supposed to kill, and it feels lazy.

Now this is the one bit that makes sense, this religion/cult isn't based upon a culture or even some text or shared idea it's almost entirely maintained by the will and edification of one man: Father comstock and by proxy the Lamb who will lead them to salvation. This isn't about bringing people together it's about following the absolute will of one man and his chosen successor, so it makes sense that your Satan figure would either attack your current prophet or attempt to corrupt the successor.

Gantolandon posted:

The bit where Booker is unmasked as the False Shepherd seems a bit off. Fink and two policemen don't act like they accidentally uncovered an Antichrist in their midst. They seem almost amused: "Well, well, we have a False Shepherd here! There will be no more false shepherding for you, Mr. False Shepherd." It also seems unlikely that trained policemen would go full Punisher and execute someone on the spot in the plain view in the bloodiest way possible. In the case they really believe Booker is the Antichrist, they are way over their head and should probably ask for orders before doing that. If he is just some poor schmuck who lost a bet or tried to impress a girl by trolling a lot of people... well, that would be monumentally stupid. The best in-world explanation for me is that the cops didn't want to murder Booker - they thought he was an impostor who wanted to disturb the Raffle and they wanted to give him a scare. This backfired horribly, because the guy they tried to bully was an experienced killer.

This however is absolutely true, the problem is the game doesn't really go far enough selling itself.. these cops are just (in appearance and action) regular beat cops they aren't fanatics and they don't treat you like the Devil like figure you are... they charge you (armed to teeth with guns and vigors) with billy clubs for a very long time for Christs sake. In Rapture the rather uneven armament of foes made sense as the splicers were worn down/scavenging but here you are fighting an ostensibly well armed police force backed with near limitless resources by the cult leader and his industrial sidekick (fink).

This kinda ties into something I brought up earlier, this game puts you in a currently active bustling city but still maintains the same game play conventions (generally) as Bioshock now partially this is probably due to console limitations (why you have 6 enemies on screen at once instead of up to 14 as they wanted/showed in early demos) but even the general design of the way you fight enemies is suspect at best. You never feel like an armed force is coming to converge on you, a small bunch of dudes show up, you kill then loot the are at your leisure before walking towards the next bunch of dudes.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

AbsoluteZer0 posted:

I thought the clothes were supposed to be random for each play through.
So-far the ones you've picked up are verbatim the ones I got on my recent replay.

Some are fixed, the one after the Zealout of the Lady

The fire bird one was random though.

To talk about crows for a moment:

Crows can be: Set on lightning/fire to either stun better (and make enemies more vulnerable) or do more damage

Crows can also be upgraded so anyone who dies while crowed becomes a crow trap (combine with the ghost gun effect when they die under the effect of a vigor and things get fun)

Also i'd say the order of the fraternal raven fit in with the sorta grandiose statement that makes Bisohock work, they are incredibly overblown as Bobbin points out (they really should hire some bird poo poo cleaners) but they work in the sense of being larger than life and insane enough to gel with the game play (of being suicidal maniacs charging Booker). If the game was more about dealing with the insanity that festers beneath the veneer of Columbia the game would work better but we only get glimpses here, in Finktown and the one scene involving Comstock making his personal army bend the knee.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

I really do love the segment with comstock, the immediate call to stand down, the messianic/big brother figure on the grainy screen.

I feel that if you channeled more of that into the enemy design and character it would have made this game feel much more thematically consistant, as it stands the vague lip service to this religious/cult like fervor from regular people as well as this scene are really the only remnants and I feel it's worse for it.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Outpost22 posted:

It seems strange to me that this game gets a lot of grief for being unrealistic, but a game like Wolfenstein: The New Order gets lauded as the best FPS of its year.

A game where you kill Nazis on the moon

I think it's something I brought up in the watch dogs thread, it's like the Realism uncanny Valley... if a game is obviously unrealistic/pulpy and revels in it it's fine but when a game edges closer towards "This is a real world/the real world" the gaps start showing.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Except it's different than say Bioshock 1 and 2 because it tries to present this as a place people are living in right now, it's like how the 100% loyal suicidal cops seem to make no sense when presented next to people going about their day just being kind of racist.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

kalonZombie posted:

Why not both? I still seriously love BI despite the whole internet telling me I should hate it.

I'm lukewarm on the game, the gameplay is good (if a little boring to watch, 1 was bad too but 2 had some interesting stuff to it like being a drill wizard) and the story is ok (1 was great, 2 eh too). Like I said near the start of the thread the hate of this game is entirely due to the massive overreaction the anything deemed Mediocre in a good/great franchise.

Bobbin's commentary is the reason I'm watching it though, not to say the game is bad but it isn't exactly a game i'd give a second or third run around.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Ice Phisherman posted:

I guess I'm just surprised that there wasn't more destruction to the exhibits. If Slate destroyed his own statue why didn't he destroy Comstock's statues? I mean they were all over the place.

Perhaps on some level Slate knew he couldn't destroy Comstock so instead he was going to destroy himself, die a soldier and take no part in this "Tin soldier" history he so hated.

Stormgale fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jul 28, 2015

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

For the random lock, it's most likely so you cant advance past that conversation about Elizabeth finding out her parentage, she can't do those while she is talking so it's a ham handed way to make sure she says it all before hitting any other audio ques.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

If I remember right you stun the patriots best with the Water Themed power

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Judge Tesla posted:

I never used Undertow much, but it was cool throwing dudes off Columbia with it.

I didn't either, but that's because on 1999 mode every fight eventually devolves into the invincibility charge loop, in the grand tradition of melee based gimmicks being really powerful in the later stages of bio shock games Never forget the drill :kamina:

Tarezax posted:

I had recently played Mass Effect 3, so I equipped the shotgun and Charge as soon as I got access and never looked back.

Pretty much this.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

The charge + vulnerability on melee is the combo that I used to deal with most heavy enemies, it just does so much loving damage with a shotgun it's unreal.

Edit: Also Bobbin I can't remember if you mentioned, do you intend on doing Burial at sea 1 or 2?

Stormgale fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Oct 6, 2015

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

^^^ I think that is the problem with taking a swerve into darkness with a character we barely met and most previous information about her have been either neutral or positive morally, they needed to literally dive straight into horrible acts to try and counterbalance all that previous information we had.

I think the interesting other side of the coin in how the game structure/morality is flawed is that even when the game focuses the good and evil on very specific people (Fink, Fitzroy, Comstock)... everyone else is still an rear end in a top hat when you remove these people: The Vox become even more savage as the fighting goes on through the rest of the game, the cops and people of Columbia are still horrible in all the ways we expect them to be so it fails on that level and further muddies the messages communicated by the game.

Edit: Also trying talk without just agreeing but the reaching for the moon is kind of the core reason this game has such strong divides as either you see it as a noble effort that failed (If you value the intent/ideal over the technical failings) or you see the problems as too fundamental or idiotic to see past and thus you almost curse it's hubris (perhaps a little melodramatic). Like I mentioned earlier on a fan base despises nothing more than mediocrity, laughably bad is still enjoyable on some level... maybe you could compare it somewhat to the uncanny valley effect?

Amidiri posted:

Anyway a video game telling me 'violence is bad and you're bad for violencing' while providing literally no alternative to violence is like if a film blamed you for the death of a character in it for watching the film (aka, kind of stupid).

This is kind of the problem with spec ops the line telling it's message which is You are a bad person for continuing this quest (i.e. playing the game) The game presents no alternative and then condemns you for walking the path it forces you on, as opposed to games where the terrible consequences of your actions Like say dishonored, the choice is kinda important.

Stormgale fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Oct 6, 2015

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

^^^^Hooo boy yeah you guys basically hit the nail on the head, I'm gonna kinda talk about undertale and spec ops for a bit so sorry for the black bars:

Price and more importantly game content are the two reasons spec ops and Undertale work as great comparison points, not only are you yes not going to waste the 60 bux game you bought but undertale only encourages/incentivises you to stop on one path of the multiple permutations of the game (if you are being uncharitable it's 1/3rd) as opposed to the entire literal experience of a modern FPS. The other core difference as I mentioned was choice, the way in Undertale every act of violence the game may judge you for is avoidable whereas in spec ops...... you gotta white phosphorus that civilian convoy because we say so.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Seemed to be 30bux (or same in pounds cause gently caress us in the UK) from my quick steam price history check, but then at that point if we take the line of reasoning then why make it a game at all? You could argue that participating along side a character is the point but I feel it possible removes something from it, especially when actions are being judged based on choice and consequence that you have no hand in.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

I suppose a question regarding the philosophy corner: How do you (you being the reader I suppose) suggest we handle reaching an equality of opportunity when the social stigma and trends can linger an incredible amount of time (generationally speaking) I mean the idea that in my case the computer science was still seen as a man's work and the amount of female students reflected that, how to you push over that active hump? Is there a need for this? I got in a discussion with one of my friends after the video and wondered the thread's input.

Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

Samovar posted:

Edit: Oh yeah, is it my imagination, or is the enemy chatter in this game much worse - as in hard to make out what's being said - compared to other Bioshock games?

The big problem is unlike the other bio shocks quite alot of background noise (gunfire) is near constant (usually due to a turret or Patriot) and some of the louder voices (Patriots or really any special) have some form of distortion or modification that not only drown out other people but also are hard to understand themselves.

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Stormgale
Feb 27, 2010

The 2 best ways to fight handymen are either a crow storm or baiting him into getting onto a skyline and nailing his chest either way. They are still very annoying sadly no matter how you slice em.

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