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As a huge fan of the Wachowskis, even I pretty surprised at how good this turned out. I really hope it gets a second season. Capheus is my favorite character. "He is Van drat!"
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Jun 10, 2015 15:34
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Rarity posted:Korea. Seoul is in Korea. I know. I've been there twice. The businessman was from China.
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Jun 10, 2015 18:42
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Kojiro posted:I bet it's super-fun as a creator to be told "write what you know" but as soon as you do it's all "stop pushing your agenda". It's an absolutely maddening thing because every writer ever does the same thing. Like I have literally never heard anyone say "That hack Tom Robbins, pushing the hippie weed metaphysical agenda!" I mean a lot of people don't like Tom Robbins books, but they don't make a show of rolling their eyes about his Mary Sue inserts. Because again every writer ever does it
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Jun 10, 2015 19:01
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DoctorX posted:I think that since sensates can "share" their bodies allowing them to possess each other's bodies consensually, Whispers could do the same with the lobotomized guy only he was like an empty husk so Whispers could possess him even without his permission. Yeah but I thought it was : Outside of your cluster - Visit only Inside your Cluster - Visit and Share So the Zombie guy is part of his "cluster". Also, I kind of wonder how their connected because it's obvious when one is in danger everyone in the cluster is alerted. Kind of wonder if Whisper killed his entire cluster. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 00:32
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The zombie guy doesn't look nearly as old as Whispers, so I don't think they're in the same cluster. It kinda seems to me like Whispers designed the operation and other treatments as a way to control sensates outside his cluster. His drug-induced influence over Jonas, and his line about expecting obedience from Riley, reinforce this.
Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 00:58
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Finished Ep 9 and I don't even know how I feel about the show. I like Wolfgang, Riley, Sun and Van Damm (legit can't remember his actual name) but all the rest are boring slogs that I don't give a poo poo about in any way whatsoever. The constant trans/gay dropping, like the group sex making everybody bisexual(?) is getting really annoying. By the 5th or 6th episode I called it to myself that there was no way they weren't going to have an Antony and the Johnsons song on a montage and bingo, end of episode 9. I'm actually a big fan of the band but still had to roll my eyes. This basically feels like a show Tumblr would write. Gotta show the trans couple being perfect bastions of trust and understanding, the marginalized woman in a patriarchy society overlooked, etc.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:02
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Midnight City posted:Gotta show the trans couple being perfect bastions of trust and understanding Wolfgang and his brother also perfectly trusted and understood each other, did that bother you? This is why people don't write gay/bi/trans characters - because even people who are probably not hateful and well-meaning, such as yourself, will come up with bizarrely terrible criticisms like this one. Good relationships exist, why is it remarkable when the trans character has a good relationship? Midnight City posted:This basically feels like a show Tumblr would write See, I think that if you're saying this, you might have as much of a problem as these Tumblr people.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:39
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precision posted:Wolfgang and his brother also perfectly trusted and understood each other, did that bother you? Nope, maybe you should try watching the show again? His "brother" repeatedly tells him he's going crazy or doing dumb poo poo. The two girls never once doubt any of it including setting fire to a loving hospital to escape to the second girl's mom's house who, yet again immediately buys into it because she's such a ~liberal hippie who sees inner truths~ quote:This is why people don't write gay/bi/trans characters - because even people who are probably not hateful and well-meaning, such as yourself, will come up with bizarrely terrible criticisms like this one. Good relationships exist, why is it remarkable when the trans character has a good relationship? Yeah this dumb ad hominem poo poo is definitely not a sign you're butt hurt I insulted your mediocre SJW flavor of the month show. Perhaps you can write a lengthy response on your blog.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:51
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Midnight City posted:Yeah this dumb ad hominem poo poo is definitely not a sign you're butt hurt I insulted your mediocre SJW flavor of the month show. Perhaps you can write a lengthy response on your blog. 
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Jun 11, 2015 02:04
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I will never forgive Tumblr for inventing trans people.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:13
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Midnight City posted:Nope, maybe you should try watching the show again? His "brother" repeatedly tells him he's going crazy or doing dumb poo poo. The two girls never once doubt any of it including setting fire to a loving hospital to escape to the second girl's mom's house who, yet again immediately buys into it because she's such a ~liberal hippie who sees inner truths~ How do you feel about Kala's family out of interest? Or that her boyfriend was perfectly supportive of every decision she made, minor as most of them were and probably one of the nicest people on the show - even putting on a musical to help entertain her. I'm not sure whether it's the "always good" or "buys in to hippie sensate stuff without question" that bothers you, this might help clarify.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:29
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Hollismason posted:Yeah but I thought it was : I think what being part of a cluster determines is which people you can connect with without having met in person, while the only way of connecting with a sensate that isn't part of your cluster is having looked into each other's eyes. You can visit or share with anyone you have a connection with, but sharing not always means possessing the other person. Unless the other person allows you to control their body, it's just like looking through their eyes. That's what the main characters did at the beginning, and when they started possessing each other it was always because one of them needed help and another one was willing to help them. Whispers just took over an empty body, so to speak. At least that's what I thought.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:31
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Hollismason posted:Not enough love in this thread for the group sex. No, there isn't. An absurdly brave sequence that left me literally awestruck for its duration and for some time after. And the unexpected "  We had sex!" payoff in the last episode was perfect.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:36
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It's a great sequence, but almost every sex scene in the show left me in stitches, that included, because most of them involved sensate mixing and I always found it funny to imagine how the rest of them felt about those things happening. Will getting freaked out by the orgy while he was in the middle of working out being a good example. I'm just waiting for one of them to be having sex and one or more of the others to drop in and start offering advice in a really critical manner.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:49
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DoctorX posted:I think what being part of a cluster determines is which people you can connect with without having met in person, while the only way of connecting with a sensate that isn't part of your cluster is having looked into each other's eyes. When Jonas is talking to Will in the car he explained to him didn't he? I thought it was inside cluster share, outside cluster visit and know what they know but can't visit anyone else but who you had eye contact with. Whispers knows everything that Will sees and experiences from that point forward but not like who the other sensates are? Midnight City posted:Finished Ep 9 and I don't even know how I feel about the show. I like Wolfgang, Riley, Sun and Van Damm (legit can't remember his actual name) but all the rest are boring slogs that I don't give a poo poo about in any way whatsoever. You do realize that this is a LGBT Science fiction show, like it couldn't more clear that it's going to be from that viewpoint? Literally the opening of the show has the rainbow flag in multiple scenes, and two men kissing. Do you watch Queer as Folk and say things like " Man, wish that they'd stop bringing up HIV and all the gay sex scenes". It's Queer Sci Fi. Also, Wolfgang has a amazing loving story. His and Caphias are amazing, ugh but Lito's is so good to. When Lito goes to get back Dani was awesome.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:11
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I actually found it very interesting that the series did not take the expected route with many of its sub-stories. Like for example, Dani's reaction to finding out about Lito being gay, Capheous new boss not being an absolute evil crime-lord or Kala's husband-to-be throwing a musical and being very supportive of her (and an all around great guy - considering that the series was also working towards the Wolfgang-Kala ship). As for Whispers role, I think that the basic rules that Jonas explained still apply (he still has to make eye contact) but he can do things beyond the other limitations (like possessing a weak/destroyed mind outside his cluster). Maybe, if Angelica can give "birth" to a new cluster, he is able to ultimately destroy a cluster if he connects with all of them or something (or if he connects to the "mother"). Or maybe his experiments with people's brains is supposed to give him extra knowledge about what he can do to manipulate sensates (which I don't particularly like as a story idea). On that subject, how was (young) Will communicating with that abducted girl he was obsessing about throughout the series? Was the little girl in another sensate cluster? Is that cluster now destroyed? Because it seemed like the general rules applied (the girl visiting him and also knowing stuff about Whispers). And, it was kind of lovely luck for Will to be the one who accidentally had eye contact with Whispers, considering he was the most aware about how dangerous that was....
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Jun 11, 2015 05:50
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I get the impression Whispers has sensates lobotomized or something so he can use them as shells as needed, which works around not having to be in their cluster. Yeah and the show is a little inconsistent about how much awareness Will (or Riley too I think?) had before being born into Angelique's new cluster. It's not very clear but it's probably not "he was straight up imagining things" either.
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Jun 11, 2015 06:54
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Sober posted:Yeah and the show is a little inconsistent about how much awareness Will (or Riley too I think?) had before being born into Angelique's new cluster. It's not very clear but it's probably not "he was straight up imagining things" either. I get the feeling that it's less inconsistency and more that they haven't finished explaining that backstory yet. I imagine they'll come back to it in season 2.
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Jun 11, 2015 08:32
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Hollismason posted:and two men kissing. Well technically, they're just doing a really terrible job eating an ice cream cone. As far Nomi and Amanita's relationship being perfect? Thank loving god. I'm tired of every film about LGTB relationships I see ending up being the story about how their destructive personalities tear everything apart. Both the moms are annoying though, for vastly different reasons.
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Jun 11, 2015 09:56
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Episode 1 was bad. All over the place, scattered, gave us nothing to care about. They should have spent less time on the non-focus characters and way more time on the characters of the week. Also, less cliches please. Crossing fingers that episode 2 is better.
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Jun 11, 2015 10:21
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I liked it. I thought the pacing of the first two episodes was awful, but after that it got really good. I think the only issue I had with the show is that I think they should have used the native language of each country rather than have everyone speak English. I get that the members of each cluster can understand each other so language is irrelevant, but in scenes where they're just talking to other people in their own country it was silly that they spoke English in Berlin. Having the cluster all speak English or whatever when talking to each other after being immersed in their own language and having to read subtitles would have made the lack of a barrier within the cluster that much more interesting. I understand that they thought a large percentage of their viewers wouldn't want to have to read subtitles, but I also think that the people who don't want to read subtitles probably aren't their target audience anyway. Edit: Capheus is the best character with the best story. Digital Prophet fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 11:02
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Gawain The Blind posted:I get that the members of each cluster can understand each other so language is irrelevant, but in scenes where they're just talking to other people in their own country it was silly that they spoke English in Berlin. Maybe they are not supposed to actually speak English in those scenes, it's just for the audience to easier understand what they are saying (in other series they use some kind of obvious transition to indicate this). This is kind of inconsistent however with some of the characters using phrases from their native language while mostly speaking English with their friends (like Capheus' friend was doing). Also, about them understanding each other languages what was up with them sometimes not being able to understand each other unless the other one started speaking in English? (eg Riley with Capheus, and I think there was another instance that I forget )
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Jun 11, 2015 11:19
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Finished the series and this show seems to have a lot of potential but the writing is so frustratingly uneven. Take the two main LGBT characters for example. Nomi is a loving train wreck. Netflix did an awesome job in casting a transwoman to play a transwoman but her character is terribly written. During the first couple of episodes, I found myself sympathising with her mother because although the mother's views are abhorrent, she acts out of a place of love and she seems genuine in trying to save the life of her child who has a terminal brain condition. She isn't the only parent who would rather their child be in a vegetative state but alive than permanently dead. Nomi on the other hand acts like a spoilt child in refusing her family's healthcare and then continues to spend about 90% of the season being victimized and feeling sorry for herself and the other 10% as a super genius hacker. She'd do great in a serious story about all the poo poo that transgender people have to deal with but it's hard to find her story engaging in a show where a Van drat bus roundhouse kicks a motorcycle. Contrast this with Lito who is written really well and relatable. He's the closeted celebrity who's struggling to balance his career and doing right by his boyfriend and being true to himself. We can see his growth and character development and the other characters in his story from Hernando to Joaquin are fun and fit much better with the story. With the other main characters, it felt like they were trying to escalate the tragedy in their past lives to the point where it became completely farcical. You start off with something mild like Kala's family happier that she was getting married over her education to Wolfgang who murders his sexually? abusive father. And as for Riley? While Capheus' mother has aids and Nomi was bullied as a child, your husband died when he was driving you to the hospital so you could give birth, you also end up watching your newborn daughter freeze to death! Not really sure how any other sensate's sob story could top that unless we find out next season that Sun was beaten and gang raped by a pack of ninjas as part of her martial arts training or how Capheus use to be a child soldier who was forced to cannibalise his friends to prove his loyalty. It wasn't just with the characters but the overall plot was slow and left so many unanswered questions like why we should really care about the bad guy and what he's doing. Overall I think the first season is recommended viewing. It'd be absolutely terrible on network television having to wait one episode a week but being able to binge watch it makes such a big difference. All the action scenes with multiple sensates were really cool and the cinematics were lovely but unless they fix up some of the characters and storylines, you're better off just fast forwarded the episode until the next instalment of Van drat. AbstractNapper posted:It would be nice to have them speak their native language, but I didn't mind them speaking English with their friends/family that all that much. I think they didn't know how things worked at the beginning before they realised they could just speak to each other in their own language. They're also speaking in their own languages to their respective family and friends and even when they speak English, like when Riley calls Will, the accents are much more pronounced than when they're in their headspace.
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Jun 11, 2015 16:37
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Kegslayer posted:Finished the series and this show seems to have a lot of potential but the writing is so frustratingly uneven. Sorry I tuned the gently caress out when you sympathized with Nomi's mother who refuses to properly gender and name her own child. That behaviour is what contributes to tons of suicides of trans people around the US every year, she's one of the least sympathetic characters in the whole show.
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Jun 11, 2015 17:19
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Hollismason posted:You do realize that this is a LGBT Science fiction show, like it couldn't more clear that it's going to be from that viewpoint? Literally the opening of the show has the rainbow flag in multiple scenes, and two men kissing. Kegslayer posted:During the first couple of episodes, I found myself sympathising with her mother because although the mother's views are abhorrent, she acts out of a place of love and she seems genuine in trying to save the life of her child who has a terminal brain condition. She isn't the only parent who would rather their child be in a vegetative state but alive than permanently dead. 'Love' "Michael, you need to listen to the doctor and your mother" "My name is Nomi." "I'm so sorry doctor. Michael can be so stubborn sometimes. Like father, like son I suppose" "My name is Nomi." e:Just as an aside, I think Occ said it earlier, but when we in the TVIRC were talking about the show, we noted that her mom is a very comical supervillain because of just how insidious she is. She turns away the girlfriend, she refuses to call her former son, current daughter by her chosen name, refuses to empathize with her at all, among other things. She's not a likeable character in the least. Postal Parcel fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 17:44
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Nomi's mother was a bigot but you can tell she wants the best for her daughter (even if what she thinks is best and what Nomi actually needs are different things). I mean, there are parents that never speak to their children again after they come out to them. At least you can tell Nomi's mother loves her.
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Jun 11, 2015 17:55
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I don't know Nomi's mom came off as so evil and false to me I wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed she was somehow in league with Whispers in the next season. People seem to be aware of the groups ability to become Sensates so I wouldn't be surprised if her mom was using her "love" to manipulate Nomi.
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Jun 11, 2015 17:58
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Yeah, a character (or person) can simultaneously be deplorable and act in ways you empathize with. I mean, horrible characters that you still empathize with is kind of what almost every modern TV drama does (Breaking Bad, Rome, Sopranos, etc). Nomi's mom definitely is portrayed as cartoonishly and gleefully bigoted, so it's hard to really feel for her too much.
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Jun 11, 2015 17:59
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DoctorX posted:At least you can tell Nomi's mother loves her. She loves the image of her son that she has in her head. She doesn't love Nomi.
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Jun 11, 2015 19:10
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Rarity posted:She loves the image of her son that she has in her head. She doesn't love Nomi. She doesn't accept who Nomi is, but everything she does is still out of love, not hatred. The fact that she's wrong doesn't mean she wants to harm her daughter.
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Jun 11, 2015 19:22
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It is precisely the temptation to label people who are misguided as "evil" that causes problems in the first place. Nomi's mother is probably stupid, certainly misguided, but not "evil".
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Jun 11, 2015 19:44
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DoctorX posted:She doesn't accept who Nomi is, but everything she does is still out of love, not hatred. The fact that she's wrong doesn't mean she wants to harm her daughter. I have no problem calling her evil as well as stupid and misguided.
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Jun 11, 2015 19:55
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Slamhound posted:It's probably closer to say she does want to hurt her daughter, Nomi, in order to "reclaim" Michael. She's utterly callous in her treatment of Nomi; hostile and unwilling to give an inch even when her other daughter tells her to back off for a second. Her "love" is little more than a pathological need to assert herself and the "help" she was offering was extortion: Accept what I say you are or die because you have no insurance. Yea, I've no idea how anyone can seriously claim that Nomi's mother was being perfectly reasonable in contrast to Nomi, when both were acting equally rational or irrational based on their history. Nomi's mother made no attempt to moderate her behavior in any way that would serve to help calm Nomi down, which would have been the rational thing to do, even if she didn't actually mean any of it, because Nomi has just woken up in a hospital following an accident and is obviously going to be a little scared and irrational based on the experience. Even her other daughter found her behavior rather out of place. Nomi for her part was just scared and seeking things to comfort herself, like her own name and her partner and what not. Which she was being denied access to by someone who she quite obviously has a long and troubled history with regardless of their ties. That's not being childish, that's just being human. What did Kegslayer expect her to do? Just lie down and accept that the person who is, even then, continuing to degrade and traumatize her, regardless of what informs that behavior, has complete control over the situation and she shouldn't be allowed access to any of the freedom's she wants, like seeing her partner or being called by her chosen name? And, while I don't know if such was the intention, I got the impression that the surgery she was going in for would have included reversing her transgender operation as much as possible. tsob fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 20:54
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DoctorX posted:Nomi's mother was a bigot but you can tell she wants the best for her daughter (even if what she thinks is best and what Nomi actually needs are different things). I mean, there are parents that never speak to their children again after they come out to them. At least you can tell Nomi's mother loves her. Nope. Nomi's mother does NOT love Nomi. Nomi's mother loves the image of what she feels her life and family should be, and she refuse to let anything or anyone within her power to ruin that image.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:10
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You can love someone and still hurt them if you think what you're doing is for their own good. Life is not black or white. The fact that Nomi's mom is hurting her doesn't mean she's evil. As precision said, she's just misguided. Anyway, I wasn't defending her or justifying her actions. I just think she has lovely opinions that are probably heavly influenced by her upbringing. I wouldn't call that "evil". If you would, well, we just see things differently.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:29
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edit: ^^^^ Yes, what they said.Samizdata posted:Nope. Nomi's mother does NOT love Nomi. Nomi's mother loves the image This is a show about blurring the boundaries between what a person "is" and "isn't".
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Jun 11, 2015 21:31
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precision posted:edit: ^^^^ Yes, what they said. Oh, I grok that. But all you have to do is watch Nomi's mom with pretty much anyone else around to get a feel for her vision of how her life should be and how she ignore/drives away/disciplines things that don't fit it while bending over backwards for things that do.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:43
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I've been accused of being an SJW for this show, and now apparently I'm also pro-bigotry. Seriously though, Nomi's mother is a dummy and an awful person, but the word "evil" means something to me, something very specific and real, and I don't use that word lightly.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:48
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precision posted:I've been accused of being an SJW for this show, and now apparently I'm also pro-bigotry. Never said Nomi's mom was evil. Although I could see that in a rather banally inflexible way, the everyday evil that happens when people can't get outside their own heads.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:56
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It's pretty fair to say that Nomi's mother doesn't actually love Nomi; she loves "Michael". Her actions aren't out of a love for her daughter but one for a son who no longer exists. She might think she's not trying to hurt Michael, but she is actively hurting Nomi in the process, and while maybe that doesn't make her a cardboard cut-out evil villain (with a villain mustache), it does still make her actions particularly heinous because she's forcing her motivations and beliefs and a surgery on someone explicitly without their consent. (It's also a question of how much do you really love someone if you're forcing them into what'd essentially be a lobotomy leaving them more or less a vegetable, even if probable death is the only alternative. Or at least, how much do you love someone if you're not getting a hundred other doctor opinions on what's very much a life and death scenario for your kid.)
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Jun 11, 2015 21:58
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