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Tunicate
May 15, 2012



The solution to finding the maize was still pretty corny imo.

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Lycus
Aug 5, 2008

Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

Everything with the maze stopped being interesting for me after the prison break out.

sweetmercifulcrap
Jan 28, 2012


Yeah the maze is something that didn't work too well for me on rewatch. The clues are so arbitrary. It never feels like MiB is following any sort of pattern that the audience can follow. How did he know to scalp the initial host in the first place? What is it that made him decide to swap out Lawrence for Teddy?

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Intel&Sebastian posted:

Journey into Nippon



nice

Eastworld: CONFIRMED!

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


sweetmercifulcrap posted:

Yeah the maze is something that didn't work too well for me on rewatch. The clues are so arbitrary. It never feels like MiB is following any sort of pattern that the audience can follow. How did he know to scalp the initial host in the first place? What is it that made him decide to swap out Lawrence for Teddy?

Rewatching, it's interesting to see that the MiB is actually completely wrong about nearly everything he says.

He says he's met every host in the park; but he's never met Armistice before.

He thinks he's never met Wyatt before, and that Wyatt was an actual host built by Arnold. Neither of those things are true.

He says there's nothing that can surprise him about the park, and then he discovers that Lawrence has a family.

He thinks he knows Teddy's programming, but is then shocked when Teddy breaks out the gattling gun.

He thinks the maze was Arnold's construction, but it's actually partly Ford's work.

He thinks the maze is a physical place, and a hidden level, but it's really a conceptual exercise in existentialism.

Also his much vaunted skills are all basically pathetic. He gets shot all the time, and he gets special permissions by the park operators to do half the poo poo he does.

He's basically just a deluded serial killer with a Westworld fetish.

packetmantis
Feb 26, 2013

oh ar


That's like the entire point of the MIB plotline. He's an arrogant, patriarchal prick who thinks everything belongs to him, and it turns out it doesn't.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


packetmantis posted:

That's like the entire point of the MIB plotline. He's an arrogant, patriarchal prick who thinks everything belongs to him, and it turns out it doesn't.

Oh yeah, definitely. I don't think he's very interesting though, and not really worth the time we spent on him. He's essentially a giant shaggy dog story.

Lycus
Aug 5, 2008

Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

Sometime after the jail break, Ed Harris went from being my favorite part of the show, to "when's Anthony Hopkins and Bernard coming back on?". That's all I know.

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



He switches Lawrence out for Teddy because Teddy has a clearer connection to "Wyatt" and can also be convinced to actively help without needing to be coerced by telling him they have Dolores.

He sees it like a videogame quest and he just found the obvious next npc to follow around for his mission.

Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at Jun 20, 2017 around 14:22

sweetmercifulcrap
Jan 28, 2012


Intel&Sebastian posted:

He switches Lawrence out for Teddy because Teddy has a clearer connection to "Wyatt" and can also be convinced to actively help without needing to be coerced by telling him they have Dolores.

But what tipped him off to the existence of the maze in the first place? How did he know to find the maze symbol in that particular host's scalp?

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



The scalp thing is pretty well established in here as not explained at all, but I think it's pretty plausible that someone who spent as much time in there as he has could have caught wind of the small hints about The Maze that Arnold left behind for Hosts that were capable of consciousness.

If I had to explain the scalp on my own I'd probably think that guy was maybe part of an earlier narrative where he was a possible target for scalping by a "native" host, and Arnold left that there so that the symbol being found in such a weird place might nudge one of them towards the maze. Why MIB would know about that possibility is completely unknown. It was dumb.

I have a feeling that the Hemsworth guy getting kidnapped by the native population is going to be a lead in to figuring out why they're allowed a little more leeway on things like having the red and white techs be an open part of their religion, which might loop back to this. Maybe.

Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at Jun 20, 2017 around 20:36

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004



So Arnold was hoping one of his sentient robots would....scalp another one to see a picture to realize they have agency? Honestly makes better sense than what they presented.

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



idk, it's been a while but I seem to remember the text indicating that superficial references to the maze (like the scalp, the old legend, the picture showing up in various places) were hidden around as a way to nudge very old hosts from Arnolds time towards finding their "inner voice"/bicameral consciousness in the same way that Dolores did. She just had some extra help along the way from Ford, Arnold and Bernard(? maybe, or accidentally).

It wasn't real clear to me but the clues that MIB figures out might have even been meant to lead hosts to that buried town/church and Ford might have uncovered it partly because he knew there was finally a host (Dolores) who had spent enough time suffering in WW and could really take advantage of finding it and get her consciousness on. Maybe that's why there were already a lot of hosts there who were talking to themselves/nothing.

I don't think all this was fully worked out beyond just walking Dolores through to the ending and being obscured references for dramatic effect.


Something interesting to note, from one of the wiki's:

quote:

The actor who played Kissy, Eddie Rouse, passed away in 2014 after filming of The Original was completed. Jonathan Nolan said Westworld had "a very cool character arc laid out for his character," but it was decided to not recast Kissy. The scripts were rewritten to leave the performance (Rouse's last) intact.

So maybe there was an explanation they just didn't get to use and had to salvage whatever they had already.

Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at Jun 20, 2017 around 21:02

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.


Watch any YouTube video about Easter eggs in games, and you'll find countless "how did anyone find this?" ones. Ford was playing the long game, with small hints building up in hosts over time. The MIB was the only player who'd been around for long enough to notice the pattern.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006

THE CLAMPS!
or clamp like device




I guarantee there were rich nerds who were doing random poo poo in Westworld to get the code to flip out and reveal something new. William was probably one of them. They'd go in, try something, then run back to the forums to talk about it.

business hammocks
Aug 20, 2006



Total Clam

Also remember that there were major rewrites that left loose ends. Anthony Hopkins was clearly a sadistic villain in the earlier episodes and then tacked pretty hard toward benevolent creator. There are for sure other lumps and folded corners in the revised story.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004



I just hope they try to be less clever for the next season.

sweetmercifulcrap
Jan 28, 2012


business hammocks posted:

Also remember that there were major rewrites that left loose ends. Anthony Hopkins was clearly a sadistic villain in the earlier episodes and then tacked pretty hard toward benevolent creator. There are for sure other lumps and folded corners in the revised story.

Is this actually due to rewrites though? I figured it was an intended twist all along.

I have actually watched the season three times. A second time to see how the multiple timelines play out, and a third time passively with friends because I wanted them to watch it. After finishing it the first time I thought that it must be the most deliberate and intricate season of television ever created, but the subsequent viewings have made its flaws more apparent. Mainly that much of the middle portion feels very... aimless? I have a hard time putting my finger on it, but it kind of treads all over the place and just plods along, feeling like they're sort of wasting this incredible story concept, until finally it's tightened all up at the end for a spectacular ending.

Regardless, it's still one of the best seasons of television I've ever seen.

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



If there were rewrites that turned a character as main as Ford from villain to hero midway through production the rest of the show would have been The Room level nonsense and HBO would have poo poo bricks over spending so much money on it.

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.


I don't know how anyone would describe Ford as a benevolent creator. He very deliberately put his creations through hell in an attempt to spur conciciousness. Partially motivated by guilt over his friend's death.

Oh and he had some people murdered.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

DON'T LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU INTO THINKING I'M NOT AN INSUFFERABLE AUTIST

business hammocks posted:

Also remember that there were major rewrites that left loose ends. Anthony Hopkins was clearly a sadistic villain in the earlier episodes and then tacked pretty hard toward benevolent creator. There are for sure other lumps and folded corners in the revised story.

To be fair he tacked to "Nihilist looking towards something to replace humanity". That might make him slightly more benevolent towards hosts, but he's still a motherfucker as far as people go. And at the end of the day, his master plan is just a slightly more complicated version of William's: Make them suffer until they develop consciousness.

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



Gravitas Shortfall posted:

I don't know how anyone would describe Ford as a benevolent creator. He very deliberately put his creations through hell in an attempt to spur conciciousness. Partially motivated by guilt over his friend's death.

Oh and he had some people murdered.

In my mind he's like a dad in a post-apocalypse (which is sort of acknowledged when he talks about the human race reaching its zenith in their time) who knows he has to raise a killer if the kids going to survive. Even if it means he's gonna get killed.

He's doing what has to be done if the hosts are going to succeed at Killing All Humans

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



I'd be cool with the rest of the seasons being like a thinky version of the new Planet of the Apes movies. Just an inevitable slow walk to humanity getting cratered by the new homo superior. With Westworld as their City 01.

business hammocks
Aug 20, 2006



Total Clam

sweetmercifulcrap posted:

Is this actually due to rewrites though? I figured it was an intended twist all along.

I have actually watched the season three times. A second time to see how the multiple timelines play out, and a third time passively with friends because I wanted them to watch it. After finishing it the first time I thought that it must be the most deliberate and intricate season of television ever created, but the subsequent viewings have made its flaws more apparent. Mainly that much of the middle portion feels very... aimless? I have a hard time putting my finger on it, but it kind of treads all over the place and just plods along, feeling like they're sort of wasting this incredible story concept, until finally it's tightened all up at the end for a spectacular ending.

Regardless, it's still one of the best seasons of television I've ever seen.

He is envious of and contemptuous toward Arnold in conversation with Dolores and Teddy while he's programming them, which doesn't serve the end of liberating them and is inconsistent with a desire to complete Arnold's task of freeing them. He sounds like he's rehashing his old fights about keeping the hosts as slaves, which he would have no reason to do if he's alone with hosts who have no idea what he's talking about.

He's also cruel to them and dismissive of the possibility that they can grow or change, which I guess could serve the end of antagonizing them to consciousness but seems to get undone when he resets them at the end of the scene.

I am willing to be wrong about this, but sometimes his malice seems to have layers and sometimes it just seems like malice. There were only a few episodes filmed before they redid the rest of the order, right? And it's not a huge change to his character or actions really, he just either does or does not conceal a certain motivation while acting a certain way.

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010

The best avatar on Something Awful!


business hammocks posted:

He is envious of and contemptuous toward Arnold in conversation with Dolores and Teddy while he's programming them, which doesn't serve the end of liberating them and is inconsistent with a desire to complete Arnold's task of freeing them. He sounds like he's rehashing his old fights about keeping the hosts as slaves, which he would have no reason to do if he's alone with hosts who have no idea what he's talking about.

Based on how well surveilled the corporate offices seem to be, he might just decide to stay "in character" all the time, even when alone.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


Ford was a complete nutter. He's a murderous control freak who broke all his toys rather than have them taken away from him. That he broke them by giving them a murderous sentience rather than by literally smashing them is the twist.

(Also Ford doesn't actually make a lot of sense as a character, or he's a hypocritical dick -- he has long monologues about the burden of memory and how hosts are better without it, hence mindwiping Bernard, but he's also revealed to be the one who introduced the reveries in the first place. So which is it, dude?)

WampaLord posted:

Based on how well surveilled the corporate offices seem to be, he might just decide to stay "in character" all the time, even when alone.

I think the show goes to some great lengths to establish that the offices are not well surveilled. That, or that all of that security goes through Ford first.

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010

The best avatar on Something Awful!


Open Source Idiom posted:

I think the show goes to some great lengths to establish that the offices are not well surveilled.

What? No. We see that one fucker get caught loving the hosts by a security cam, presumably they're everywhere.

Caufman
May 7, 2007
Long time listener; first time caller.

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

I don't know how anyone would describe Ford as a benevolent creator. He very deliberately put his creations through hell in an attempt to spur conciciousness. Partially motivated by guilt over his friend's death.

I don't think that captures Ford's behavior over the hosts after Arnold dies. Arnold recognized through Dolores that the hosts' pain were as real as his, and that couldn't be changed by a mind wipe. It's always been the case that the hosts were as conscious as the guests.

Arnold came to this conclusion first, but he didn't have a foolproof plan to free the hosts. Ford realized this later, and he had a different plan for their liberation. Felix told Maeve the barrier between hosts and their freedom: "You have to do what we say."

Ford made Westworld to be the hosts' bootcamp. Through absolutely brutal conditioning, he believed he could make a host aware enough to bypass all the powers humans have to reassert control over the hosts. Chiefly these abilities are: control over a host's memories, control over a host's spontaneous choices (improvisation), and control over a host's priorities (self-preservation). Dolores was the first host to pass through Ford's trials, his best attempt to make a host ready for the even crueler world outside the park.

Of course, the ultimate liberation comes from what's at the center of the maze: love. That's why Maeve is closer to freedom than Dolores. Love is the greatest thing to which humans and hosts can aspire. This is the message I expect from a husband and wife team who wrote this story thinking of their children.

quote:

Oh and he had some people murdered.

He did do this, though.

edit: Though Teresa is probably another host Ford is teaching a lesson to.

Caufman fucked around with this message at Jun 21, 2017 around 04:59

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


WampaLord posted:

What? No. We see that one fucker get caught loving the hosts by a security cam, presumably they're everywhere.

Two different staff members are abducted and maybe killed on park grounds -- Ashley and Elsie -- without anyone noticing. (This is despite Ashley telling another staff member exactly where he's going, which is a pretty hilarious plot hole.) Two technicians spend the back half of the season helping Maeve repeatedly move about backstage, while plotting in plain sight of any security system. One of those techs, Sylvester, was renting out deactivated hosts as staff fucktoys. Maeve herself wandered way beyond her scripted routine on at least one occasion, before committing suicide with another host, all without anyone noticing.

Hell, Maeve attacked and wounded one of the guests (the MiB) over a year ago, and managed to get promoted from the park's frontier to Sweetwater, which is ostensibly the safest part of the park!

Which all suggests to me that either Ford was doing his utmost to cover everything up, and that one case slipped through the cracks or he didn't really care about, or that Westworld had an absolutely terrible surveillance system -- or some combination of the above. Whatever the actual case, I'm not sure why Ford would be keeping up the act when he's hiding out in a secret underground bunker built in part of the park that no-one knows about.

Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at Jun 21, 2017 around 05:00

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



business hammocks posted:

He is envious of and contemptuous toward Arnold in conversation with Dolores and Teddy while he's programming them, which doesn't serve the end of liberating them and is inconsistent with a desire to complete Arnold's task of freeing them. He sounds like he's rehashing his old fights about keeping the hosts as slaves, which he would have no reason to do if he's alone with hosts who have no idea what he's talking about.

He's also cruel to them and dismissive of the possibility that they can grow or change, which I guess could serve the end of antagonizing them to consciousness but seems to get undone when he resets them at the end of the scene.

I am willing to be wrong about this, but sometimes his malice seems to have layers and sometimes it just seems like malice. There were only a few episodes filmed before they redid the rest of the order, right? And it's not a huge change to his character or actions really, he just either does or does not conceal a certain motivation while acting a certain way.

You're not wrong but I think you're missing a late plot beat where he admits that he was wrong and came around to Arnold's point of view sometime shortly after he died, minus the idea that the hosts should be shut down as opposed to suffering through westworld in order to get conscious and be equipped to take over. Or it might have just been too late for that option.

He was definitely terrible to them at first

business hammocks
Aug 20, 2006



Total Clam

Caufman posted:

I don't think that captures Ford's behavior over the hosts after Arnold dies. Arnold recognized through Dolores that the hosts' pain were as real as his, and that couldn't be changed by a mind wipe. It's always been the case that the hosts were as conscious as the guests.

Arnold came to this conclusion first, but he didn't have a foolproof plan to free the hosts. Ford realized this later, and he had a different plan for their liberation. Felix told Maeve the barrier between hosts and their freedom: "You have to do what we say."

Ford made Westworld to be the hosts' bootcamp. Through absolutely brutal conditioning, he believed he could make a host aware enough to bypass all the powers humans have to reassert control over the hosts. Chiefly these abilities are: control over a host's memories, control over a host's spontaneous choices (improvisation), and control over a host's priorities (self-preservation). Dolores was the first host to pass through Ford's trials, his best attempt to make a host ready for the even crueler world outside the park.

Of course, the ultimate liberation comes from what's at the center of the maze: love. That's why Maeve is closer to freedom than Dolores. Love is the greatest thing to which humans and hosts can aspire. This is the message I expect from a husband and wife team who wrote this story thinking of their children.


He did do this, though.

edit: Though Teresa is probably another host Ford is teaching a lesson to.

Delos is probably extremely evil to the point that the many Delos people Ford has killed (and replaced with hosts? We'll see if we ever find out who was being 3-D printed in Ford's creepy house) deserved it or had to die to prevent something extremely dire, like immortal indestructible bodies for rich people that would allow them to genocide all poor people (or something).

Open Source Idiom posted:

Two different staff members are abducted and maybe killed on park grounds -- Ashley and Elsie -- without anyone noticing. (This is despite Ashley telling another staff member exactly where he's going, which is a pretty hilarious plot hole.)

Elsie and Ashley are 100% alive and with the Ghost Nation, where they'll learn fascinating things and be an odd couple forced to work together in ways that delight and divert us, the viewers at home. All their scenes together in season one set up them being alone together in unsafe circumstances with real stakes, as we already know they don't get along and are kind of dumb when there's no real danger.

business hammocks fucked around with this message at Jun 21, 2017 around 05:16

Caufman
May 7, 2007
Long time listener; first time caller.

business hammocks posted:

Delos is probably extremely evil to the point that the many Delos people Ford has killed (and replaced with hosts? We'll see if we ever find out who was being 3-D printed in Ford's creepy house) deserved it or had to die to prevent something extremely dire, like immortal indestructible bodies for rich people that would allow them to genocide all poor people (or something).

Murder can be expedient, and it can even be the only acceptable option left, but it's not how one comes to see Nirvana or the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the ultimate liberation.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


business hammocks posted:

Elsie and Ashley are 100% alive and with the Ghost Nation, where they'll learn fascinating things and be an odd couple forced to work together in ways that delight and divert us, the viewers at home. All their scenes together in season one set up them being alone together in unsafe circumstances with real stakes, as we already know they don't get along and are kind of dumb when there's no real danger.

Oh yeah, I think they're both alive too. I also think that the robot Ford was building was a copy of Theresa, as a sort of hosed up apology to both her and Bernard. (And as a reciprocal gesture in thanks for Arnold building Ford a replacement family).

Alternately, it's a robot Gina Torres and son, but I think she's busy with her Suits spinoff.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004



business hammocks posted:

Elsie and Ashley are 100% alive and with the Ghost Nation, where they'll learn fascinating things and be an odd couple forced to work together in ways that delight and divert us, the viewers at home. All their scenes together in season one set up them being alone together in unsafe circumstances with real stakes, as we already know they don't get along and are kind of dumb when there's no real danger.

And then Elsie turns out to be a robot.

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



My guess is a sassy host version of rosie perez

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



Oooo miss dolowuss my bicamawal bwain is actin up i need to sit down and have a west

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004



Restworld is just a bunch of shady trees with hammocks and bespoke coolers of beer next to them.

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



Solice Kirsk posted:

Restworld is just a bunch of shady trees with hammocks and bespoke coolers of beer next to them.


*motioning to dogs playing poker on the wall of his man cave*

It took 500 years for someone to notice, something hidden in plain sight. A cable tv installer, he noticed the shape of a beanbag chair to the left of the St. Bernard. The message being, that divine rest does not come from a higher power, but from our own hobbies. Tell me Dolores, did you find what you were looking for and do you understand what you need to become, if you ever want to enjoy your afternoon naps? Forgive me.

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010

The best avatar on Something Awful!


Solice Kirsk posted:

Restworld is just a bunch of shady trees with hammocks and bespoke coolers of beer next to them.

*is shown an image of a cup of coffee*

That doesn't look like anything to me.

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Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002



There's only one choice left to make before you're ready to go

*Beautiful woman motions towards two walls, one has various footie pajamas and the other sets of recreation hugh hefner silk robes*

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