HBO's Westworld: These violent delights have violent ends

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > HBO's Westworld: These violent delights have violent ends

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Zaggitz posted:

For the record, Jonah Nolan co-writes most of his brother's movies, notable exception being Inception. He also created Person of Interest which features one of if not the best depiction of Artificial Intelligence in both film and movies. Westworld is a passion project between him and his wife and given his personal track record, should be pretty loving amazing.

He is a good writer.

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/books/a1564/memento-mori-0301/

# ¿ Jun 24, 2016 14:35

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 20:37

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Paulocaust posted:

She was literally having flashbacks during that whole thing. Why would it be insane to think her finding William was also a flashback?

Somebody give me one concrete example to debunk the MIB/William 30 years apart storyline. There isn't one. Maybe this on purpose by the show creators to confuse the viewer, but there certainly isn't a single piece of evidence to dispute the theory.

There isn't concrete evidence but it wouldn't make sense in the context of the show as we know it now. It would just be too convoluted at this point, imo.

Usually, the rule for dramatic storytelling is that you can have a simple story delivered in a complicated way, like Memento, or you can have a complicated story delivered in simple way, like most detective stories, but doing both is suicide.

If you think of it like using sliders, you can move the sliders so that one is at 60 and the other is at 40 or 80/20 but sending both sliders to 100 would be too much. Time will tell, I guess.

I think that they're showing us something huge is happening on the outside with the corporation, it's why William/Logan are there (I think?) and what Teresa keeps talking about. And they're showing us that something huge is happening in Westworld, with MiB seeking the Maze. I think loving with the timeline too much would be almost too much to piece together with everything else that's happening.

E: they are messing with the timeline of the show a little, I just don't think they're also showing us someone at different times in their own life.

tadashi fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 24, 2016

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 17:35

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

The one concrete thing I can think of is that I'm pretty darn sure they introduced the idea of them giving MiB permission for pyrotechnics from the same room they observed Dolores straying from her path, and from the same room where they redirect the posse into town to show us that all these events coincide and are building up to one big final event.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 17:43

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Caufman posted:

I'm back on the fence about the two timeline theories, but one (stretching) explanation is that Dolores has run away twice. She flees the attack on her ranch in William's timeline, becoming a stray, but William keeps the sheriff host from escorting her back into the loop. In the Hopkins-Hemsworth era, Dolores is flagged for a check-up again, but the scene that immediately follows Hemsworth's flagging is misdirection.

I admit it's a stretch because also in that scene right before the sheriff checks on Dolores, she's seen hearing the disembodied voice and has flashbacks telling her to remember after speaking with Lawrence's daughter, which also suggests that this is happening all in the same, current timeline. On the other hand, the reveries and glitching and bleeding memories lets us doubt the reliability of what is shown and in what order.

Yeah, I thought something had changed when she was talking to the daughter but then it seems like the daughter is missing from the village after we see that the daughter isn't actually there which threw me off onto thinking that this is all happening within the same iteration of the world.

If the MiB timeline is totally different and the daugther and wife are alive when Dolores is in the village but the show just isn't showing us, I think that would be a cheap shot.

tadashi fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Oct 24, 2016

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 18:24

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

I don't know why running away had to be 30 years earlier. For all we know, he dragged her away in the first episode, the one where he quotes the 30 year timeline, and that didn't work so he changed a sequence of events in order to get the results he wanted.

I don't think they're hiding the fact that MiB is playing a meta-game that requires lots of events to line up just in the right way and that he's tried this many times over to figure it out. I'm impressed with that part and that the path that William is dragging Logan on seems to be genuinely fun for Logan so at least we know someone is enjoying themselves outside of just the ability to be completely cruel to anyone they meet.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 18:36

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

I would argue that it's not stupid, it's just not the best interpretation of what we're seeing at this point.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 18:38

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

I'm actually dying to know if the constellations on the rocks were actually just red herrings and the writers sent half the show watchers off on a snipe hunt to figure out what the relevance of them might be to the show.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 18:44

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Caufman posted:

(in the era before strict weapons privileges and concurrent with Arnold running bicameral experiments),

We also know that Rebus appeared to take revenge on characters from past narratives and that Dolores was able to commit violence when she couldn't in the past (the fly incident), so I don't think it's too far fetched to have Dolores connect the two things in episode 3.

Caufman posted:

Dolores standing over some graves.

It's her own grave, some time when the church was whole as opposed to now when it's half buried.
The grave you can read to the left is for an assistant costume designer on the show.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2371479/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cr521

tadashi fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Oct 24, 2016

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 19:40

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Blazing Ownager posted:

So I just realized something last episode: Because the hosts keep respawning, I get a completely different reaction when their heads explode than if it was a human character in another show. I've started thinking of the poor bastards as NPCs even while the show is showing they can be more, I think, and that's just amusing.

That's the meta-game of the show. What we attach to characters in a tv show is completely up to us. We differentiate between the "guests" and the "hosts" but they're all just actors.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 20:50

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Zaphod42 posted:

GOT took a long while to really go mainstream, the first two seasons were more consumed by nerds and book-readers than the general population, and it gained steam as it went.

HBO has held onto terrible shows because they were critically acclaimed and cancelled very popular shows because they weren't. The ratings of Westworld don't matter. All that matters is whether the critics like it, which is the opposite of most normal TV shows. No clue if this is good or bad for westworld, but I would figure its probably a good thing.

They changed the head of programming this year so I wouldn't assume anything for most new shows getting anything more than 2 seasons if they think they can do better. This is a pretty big blockbuster of a show, though, so I'd be surprised at anything less than 3 seasons, giving them enough time to come up with something to replace it, eventually.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 21:06

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Jack Gladney posted:

I don't get why the corporate lady was so intimidated by Ford's speech to her. He's "God" in a fantasy world that requires the constant efforts of hundreds of people to keep from imploding on itself, and even his job is mostly concerned with fine-tuning everything so that it doesn't collapse. It's still all a fantasy world built around people escaping reality with fuckbots, and he just sounds like the king of the bot-fuckers when he talks about how he's in control.

If the subtext was "I could kill you with these fuckbots sweeping the floor and pouring wine and cover it up," yeah that's plenty scary, but not on the level she seemed to be reacting to. It's still just a conversation about money and entertainment.

I think the subtext was "It's my world and I'll do whatever I please" accentuated by the giant ground chewing machine digging up everything in its path.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 21:17

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Zaphod42 posted:

He then very overtly points out that he knows she's sleeping with Bernard. Who is married, and she might be too. There's your leverage.

Or he's not and the truth is even worse, like she's acting like a member of the MMS.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/washington/11royalty.html

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 21:30

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Caufman posted:

I'm trying to understand all the motivations involved in that conversation. Ford clearly wants to do his new storyline now, and it sounds like the board might actually want to delay that indefinitely. So might they be waiting for him to die so they can move the park in a different direction? Won't work if he's a secret killer robot.

We know the corporation has alternate plans for what the park is doing. I would guess it doesn't have anything to do with entertainment but the only conversation relating to it was the one in the opening episode between Theresa and the narrative guy.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 21:38

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

I think episode 10's title is a giant spoiler as to how the minds of the hosts work.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2016 22:04

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Blazing Ownager posted:

In all seriousness there is one timeline issue that is interesting:

- The hooker (God I'm blanking on her name) started drawing the hazmat suits and putting them in the floor
- There were like a dozen said drawings in that floorboard, and several clever edits indicated a passage of time
- This is where the problem happens: Mr. Noob Whitehat and his l337 Blackhat friend are still in the park.

So unless they took a month long vacation there at $40,000 a day (which I still think might be more like $4,000 a day in future money to make much sense, it's still a shitload when you figure in all the merchandising and stuff they're probably doing, plus the side research) something is a little fishy.

Fwiw, I filled out the form on the website for the most expensive trip for 4 weeks for 2 adults and it was like 34 million.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 00:28

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

If they were just invested in the park and he's just a board member, there's a good chance he'd still pay something.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 13:43

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Memento posted:

Could just be as simple as physical fitness and willingness to rough it for a few nights.

Also being willing to be shot repeatedly. Like I can't imagine going up against Armistice and company on your own would be a whole lot of fun.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 14:03

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

King Vidiot posted:

Why, it couldn't possibly be visual shorthand for Ford remaking the park in his own image over top the wreckage of the old park that was made in Arnold's image. Notice that the "new" logo is found only in the private staff office buildings and the underground elevator that takes Ford directly to the spot overlooking part of his new project. I mean one might even assume that the new logo was as new of an addition as Ford's new narrative, like within the past month or so before the events of the show.

But no that would make too much sense, clearly William is the Man in Black.

Also, the logos when William is arriving change slightly. You could say we see multiple logos, I guess. Here's another one in the background from when he's being outfitted. People are just fixated on the first one he sees for some reason.

tadashi fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Oct 25, 2016

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 14:35

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

King Vidiot posted:

That's also the old one, and it addresses nothing that I said in my post. In fact it's the same shot as one of the screenshots already posted

We can argue semantics but the colors are literally different.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 14:51

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

I can't even tell who's arguing for what anymore? Can we just all go back to looking forward to wondering what Logan will do in Epsiode 5?

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 15:37

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

The Saddest Rhino posted:

Can you gently caress any host? Can someone choose to gently caress the prospector.

I asked a friend why no one in this post-sexual preference future is sexually assaulting male hosts and he couldn't figure it out, either.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 16:10

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Solkanar512 posted:

I took it more as the MiB is a famous person in the real world and doesn't want complete randos to be weird around him.

Thanks for putting the idea of Bill Murray visiting the park in my head.

Kazy posted:

I don't think he has to radio them, the toys just automatically phone home for permission to go off once their fuse is activated.

Yeah, it struck me as "Maybe we shouldn't let guests blow poo poo up whenever they want". They specifically mentioned they were small pyros.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 18:07

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Collateral posted:

Doesn't Logan mention that they are paying $40,000 a day to visit the park? Do you think he is paying normal rates for current time, or would that be gold package for 30 years ago.

The gold package for 2 for 4 weeks with a villa was like 34 million when I did the booking thing on the Westworld sit but I can't make it give me the estimate again. If so, Logan is staying on the cheap.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 19:57

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Abalieno posted:

I think I figured out the whole thing, am I allowed speculative spoilers? It all seems fairly plausible for me, so I wouldn't want to ruin the show...

Are we allowed to post that, right? If so, here's the deal, copied from my own blog:

(I'm not updated on fan theories, so it might be as well someone else arrived already at the same conclusion)

I would be surprised since a lot of that is how :lost:

ended and it didn't go over well.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 20:10

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Abalieno posted:

I'm not sure how's that actually related?

J.J. Abrams?

lost ends with Jack and company making the smoke monster/MiB mortal so they could destroy him and save the island/humanity/themselves

tadashi fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Oct 25, 2016

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 20:16

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Zaphod42 posted:

I'm not sure how this counts as 'figuring out the whole thing' since these are just a few major story beats that we'd already guessed when all we'd seen was the pilot.

The devil's in the details. There's something more going on with Arnold than you've figured out, more going on with Bernard, more going on with Corporate, etc.

Obviously Dolores is trying to become self aware and obviously at some point the robots are going to have a rebellion. How it goes down is what matters, and also what other hidden story plots there are which we've only seen glimpses of so far.

Will Delos try to stop Ford? Is Arnold's consciousness still in the system, or in one of the hosts? Is someone we think is human actually a host? Looooots you didn't even begin to touch on there, and I'll be shocked if there isn't a ton more than just that going on.

Also, the fact that the hosts originally had a "god's voice" that flowed through them to help them function (you can ask the host on DiscoverWestworld.com about it)and they're clearly rediscovering that. I think, if there's a similarity to any other androids, they're more like the BSG cylons than we have been shown so far in that they may discover their own lost religion.

The season finale episode title hints that this divine voice is much more important than they have explicitly told us in the episodes so far and that it might play an important part toward the end of the season. I think it's even possible that they are blocked from remembering what they've seen more-so than they don't remember what they see. That the memories are there but there's nothing to connect it to their conscious mind.

tadashi fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Oct 25, 2016

# ¿ Oct 25, 2016 20:45

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

VendaGoat posted:

Just because I am able to communicate this.

I'd like to gently caress the blazes out of Armistice, I have no rational explanation as to a motive.

She is a very beautiful person that the show designers have worked very hard to rough up.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2016 05:16

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

LinkesAuge posted:

Narrative structure and payoff.

Let's repeat it:

Narrative structure and payoff.

That's why there won't be two different timelines/time frames because you don't sacrifice those for some cheap twists unless you are a total hack as writer (which is why I give this whole theory exactly 0,01% to be true).

Also, there was that whole speech by Ford about why the Westworld narrative shouldn't be cheap and gimmicky and dumb. While the writers at the time might not have predicted that some internet forum user would read so much into their show that it would create a 2 timeline theory....

Hang on

Let me point out, we're not really dealing with 2 timelines even if William or Logan is the MiB. That's still 1 timeline. It's just past and present in the same timeline.

[Past]Logan/William<----------------------->[Present]MiB

2 timelines looks like this

code:

[Past]Logan/William<------------------->[Present]MiB
                             \
                              \-------->[Alt Present]MiB

...like I was saying, Ford gives a whole speech about not being gimmicky and trying to over-manipulate the guests which I'm pretty sure is the writers, who may or may not have known that the prevailing theory to the show would involve timeline gimmicky poo poo, telling the audience "we're not going to settle for gimmicky poo poo."

Durzel posted:

It occured to me that the whole "Maeve isn't sexing enough" side story got forgotten about, unless I'm missing something? Didn't she get marked for decommissioning, with Ashley saying that he was leaving her in the world for one last night for guests to have a final fling? Did that just get forgotten about?

I think they would only do it if she didn't get more "interactions" but then she did. The subtle changes in all the iterations in her montage scenes were really nice work by Thandie.

tadashi fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Oct 26, 2016

# ¿ Oct 26, 2016 13:38

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Zaphod42 posted:

But that's also what MiB wants. Which, maybe that's fine, maybe they'll work together to hide what is going on from the board. (Or maybe this is even what the board really wants)

But... I dont' think it'll be that simple. Arnold wanted the androids to have the keys. Ford... wants to be god of the keys himself.

That's what I think the real mystery is: what did Arnold really want and does MiB want to discover whatever it was that Arnold was working on for some sort of religious-esque reasons or does he just want control for himself but Ford clearly isn't giving it up?

The battle between Ford and the board seems more basic. His strategy for the park and the boards' intended strategy are clearly reaching a breaking point.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2016 19:16

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

What does this mean

# ¿ Oct 26, 2016 19:26

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

El Jeffe posted:

Why would they hire a real human lady for that job in which she offers sex to the guests, when they could just use a host?

Yeah, I wonder if the writers thought of her as a host or just an ambiguous being and let the show watchers fight it out.

I hate bringing it up but I thought the line form Logan about the women on the outside being a 2 compared to where they were going was pretty stupid. Everyone on a TV show like this is unearthly attractive compared to the rest of us trolls.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2016 19:52

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Arglebargle III posted:

There isn't even anything under most of those points. Out of 9 points, only 3 match. 4 if you stretch it.

Also, many of those points are on nearly straight lines because that's the most convenient way to build a road.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2016 13:38

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Zaphod42 posted:

What? No. Noo. No. This has nothing to do with the Basilisk at all.

And the Basilisk is a sorta cool thought expiriment that a bunch of dumb people took wayyyyyy too loving seriously. Better we forget all about it.

E: Roko's Basilisk is just the dumb sci-fi philosophy version of "the game"

I think all the native american stuff people were posting is pretty strong evidence the maze is a metaphor. But we'll see.

You also have the snake part being more of a riddle than a literal snake so the map locations are clearly more than they appear.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2016 17:45

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

I do wonder if the reason the show is presented with MiB and the other guests doing things separately is because they were trying to recycle as much material as possible when they went back and rewrote the show. As in maybe they were fine with a lot of the MiB or William storylines and the figured out it'd be more efficient if they just rewrote once side of what we're seeing and created a final event for them to meetup around.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2016 18:15

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Is the only indication for distinguishing guests from hosts, other than being told directly, the poo poo-eating grin on the faces of guests anytime something crazy happens? For a second, I thought Teddy had a new host sidekick in that female guest because they had just told him he was getting a new backstory and then she showed up.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2016 18:30

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Grognan posted:

I bet the ambiguity from the hosts's scenes is that they actually don't have anything close to a linear grasp of time, just something that imitates it close enough to matter. Which does leave room for the show creators to pull something crazy off.

I think this is a good question in regards to the hosts that hang out in town and part of their loop is just to wait for someone to engage with. Are their brains actively engaged in what's going on around them like a human might be, thinking about things that are going on around them in relation to their own wants and needs or their backstory as much as they are allowed to think about those things or are they just blank spaces waiting for input?

I think the more I think about this show, the more I realize it isn't so much the show that fascinates me as the ideas around the show. I like the storylines fine and the characters are interesting but logistical questions about how the park runs and how the AI work is a good bit of the draw.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2016 19:18

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

nexus6 posted:

I might have missed it in the thread but is there a reason people do not think Westworld is actually in Monument Valley and for some reason have recreated it somewhere else?

It could easily be on another planet or some sort of space station. Ford mentioned something to Theresa about giving the board "a world" (I can't remember the exact lines) and I thought it might actually be a hint that he was literally talking about an actual world, even if Westworld is only part of it.

They also mention something about neighbors complaining, so something or someone else is out there beyond what's encapsulated in Westworld.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2016 13:00

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

nexus6 posted:

True, but we just saw Ford has access to BAGGER 288 and an army of host labor, so they could have created an artificial inland sea.

Or an artificial Valley. Like every other dumb thing we're all arguing about, I don't think there's enough information to say anything other than there are a lot of possibilities.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2016 16:12

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Xealot posted:

William isn't doing anything at all, it seems. He's just along for the ride; Dolores is the one making choices.

Dolores actually does need a guest to be her guardian since every guest she meets want to rape and/or murder her other than William and the hosts aren't so kind, either.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2016 15:52

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 20:37

tadashi: Feb 20, 2006

Gwaihir posted:

Yo the very same preview has Dolores wearing the outfit she just got with William and Logan, but in a scene with the Man in Black. Cmon.

If anything, some of the MiB scenes seemed to be slightly behind Logan and William in terms of time/place this week.

In terms of "the voice", the westworld site host says that there did used to be a guiding voice of sorts put into the hosts' minds to help them. So it could have become obsolete after years of updates but Dolores is tapping back into it.
The concept of a divine voice that connects different parts of the mind is an old discredited concept and is where the title of the season's final episode comes from.

tadashi fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Nov 1, 2016

# ¿ Nov 1, 2016 16:28

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > HBO's Westworld: These violent delights have violent ends

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