|
What do you guys think about this? It would free a lot of very fertile land up for construction and agriculture. I know that it was planned in wubya wubya 2 by the Germans but never came to fruition, the EU discussed it briefly but Id like to onpw what you guys think about this and how it would effect europe positively and negatively.
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2015 21:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 22:33 |
|
|
Positive: A lot more land to mine and drill for oil on, and possibly farm if you desalinate the soil. Negative: Migrants can now walk to Europe!!! Also probably going to gently caress up the climate of any country bordering the former sea.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2015 21:59
|
|
|
what would the potential effects on the environment be?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2015 22:26
|
|
|
Your Weird Uncle posted:what would the potential effects on the environment be? I'm sure it'll be fine. If not, we can always just put it back. No harm, no foul.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2015 22:37
|
|
|
Well i dont mean drain the entirity of it. Just some of it. like 500 meters at the most Also a Hydroelectric dam on the strait of gebraltar would give yurope massive amounts of energy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2015 22:47
|
|
|
I approve of turning untold trillions worth of beachfront property into, well, non-beachfront property worth fewer trillions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2015 23:21
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Well i dont mean drain the entirity of it. Just some of it. like 500 meters at the most Oh, that's all? No worries, then! quote:Also a Hydroelectric dam on the strait of gebraltar would give yurope massive amounts of energy. So you somehow think you will get more energy out of a hydroelectric dam at the Strait of Gibraltar than you would spend pumping water out? Even ignoring the amount of energy and resources you'd need to put in just to install a dam over there, your idea violates conservation of energy. With luck you'd break even, except 2nd Law says you can't even do that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2015 23:32
|
|
|
Your Weird Uncle posted:what would the potential effects on the environment be? Turning hundreds of thousands of square miles of seabed into salt flats leaving the sediment to get blown away by the wind and mixed into the atmosphere will have absolutely no negative repercussions I am sure icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Jun 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2015 23:40
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, that's all? No worries, then! so draining the water a few hundred feet, then controlling the flow of water into the mediterranean from the ocean would somehow break the laws of physics? Constant supply of energy for a 1 time production Even if we didnt slowly drain it a Dam that large would produce a massive amount of energy. Aswell as the land up for sale and usage after we drain it. Thats a lot of fertile land up for usage and sale. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jun 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 00:46
|
|
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropaquote:The Utopian goal was to solve all the major problems of European civilization by the creation of a new continent, "Atlantropa", consisting of Europe and Africa and to be inhabited by Europeans (who were supposed to flourish under the effects of the climate changes, as opposed to Africa's native populations).[citation needed] Sörgel was convinced that to remain competitive with the Americas and an emerging Oriental "Pan-Asia", Europe must become self-sufficient, and this meant possessing territories in all climate zones. Asia would forever remain a mystery to Europeans, and the British would not be able to maintain their global empire in the long run – hence a common European effort to colonize Africa was necessary.[12] The lowering of the Mediterranean would enable the production of immense amounts of electric power, guaranteeing the growth of industry. Unlike fossil fuels, this power source would not be subject to depletion. Vast tracts of land would be freed for agriculture – including the Sahara desert, which was to be irrigated with the help of three sea-sized man-made lakes throughout Africa. The massive public works, envisioned to go on for more than a century, would relieve unemployment and the acquisition of new land would ease the pressure of overpopulation, which Sörgel thought were the fundamental causes of political unrest in Europe. Sörgel also believed the project's effect on the climate could only be beneficial.[13] The Middle East under the control of a consolidated Atlantropa would be an additional energy source and a bulwark against the Yellow Peril.[14] And... Scene!
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 00:56
|
|
|
lmao
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 00:57
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:so draining the water a few hundred feet, then controlling the flow of water into the mediterranean from the ocean would somehow break the laws of physics? How much energy at a minimum do you think it would take to get the initial height differential? Answer: at least as much as the resulting height differential. The process loses you energy. You might as well just put that energy in a battery to use it later. quote:Even if we didnt slowly drain it a Dam that large would produce a massive amount of energy. Where is this energy coming from? quote:Aswell as the land up for sale and usage after we drain it. Thats a lot of fertile land up for usage and sale. How sure are you about that fertility? We're talking intense salinity to start with, and that's bad for most crops. Also: icantfindaname posted:Turning hundreds of thousands of square miles of seabed into salt flats leaving the sediment to get blown away by the wind and mixed into the atmosphere will have absolutely no negative repercussions I am sure
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 01:00
|
|
|
The plan to build canals connecting to the Qattara Depression in Egypt sounds like a much better option. As long as you do it without the whole "several hundred nuclear bombs used for excavation" thing the Germans wanted to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression_Project quote:The proposals call for a large canal or tunnel being excavated of about 55 to 80 kilometres (34 to 50 mi) depending on the route chosen to the Mediterranean Sea to bring seawater into the area.[1] Or otherwise a 320 kilometre (200 mile) pipeline north-east to the freshwater Nile River at Rosetta.[2][3] For comparison, the nearby Suez Canal is currently 193 kilometres in length.[4] By balancing the inflow and evaporation the lake level can be held constant. Several proposed lake levels are -70, -60, -50 and -20 m.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 01:13
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, that's all? No worries, then! You wouldn't even need to pump. The basin's dry enough that it loses more water through evaporation than rainfall fills it. The connection to the Atlantic through the Strait of Gibraltar is the only thing keeping it filled, and the entire basin has dried up almost completely several times in relatively recent geological history. The idea was in the original German plan was to dam the Strait of Gibraltar and Straits of Messina, then let evaporation do its work to lower the sea level. Once it dropped far enough, you'd be able to let enough water through turbines to fulfill energy needs without worrying about pumping it out again, since the basin is so large. The big problem with that is that it would take decades for the sub-basins to drain enough to actually do that. The bigger problems are managing the giant dust storms that will result from uncovering giant swaths of seabed, and then rehabilitating land and aquifers that have been saturated in saltwater for centuries. But I guess if you have the resources in place to build a 15km wide, 900 m tall dam, then that shouldn't be too big of a deal! It's not really worth the effort, because the amount of manpower put into it would be better used on other infrastructure projects.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 01:13
|
|
|
In my opinion a better idea would be to nuke everything north of the Mediterranean.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 01:25
|
|
|
Like Poseidon would just sit idly by and let this happen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 02:38
|
|
|
I kind of want to go into an alternate universe where the Nazis won (which is every universe but ours if TV and Movies are to be believed) just so I could see the results of all the crazy things they planned to do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 03:02
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:How sure are you about that fertility? We're talking intense salinity to start with, and that's bad for most crops. Also: Didn't you read the thread? The wind is going to blow all that salt away. World gets airborne supply of delicious sea salt on their food.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 03:10
|
|
|
Carl The Shivan posted:I kind of want to go into an alternate universe where the Nazis won (which is every universe but ours if TV and Movies are to be believed) just so I could see the results of all the crazy things they planned to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein:_The_New_Order
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 03:11
|
|
|
Venusian Weasel posted:You wouldn't even need to pump. The basin's dry enough that it loses more water through evaporation than rainfall fills it. The connection to the Atlantic through the Strait of Gibraltar is the only thing keeping it filled, and the entire basin has dried up almost completely several times in relatively recent geological history. The idea was in the original German plan was to dam the Strait of Gibraltar and Straits of Messina, then let evaporation do its work to lower the sea level. Once it dropped far enough, you'd be able to let enough water through turbines to fulfill energy needs without worrying about pumping it out again, since the basin is so large. The big problem with that is that it would take decades for the sub-basins to drain enough to actually do that. That seems to make a bit more sense, but honestly, if you're in effect trying to get at solar power, you're really much better off getting it through solar panels rather than cycles of evaporation and hydroelectric. quote:The bigger problems are managing the giant dust storms that will result from uncovering giant swaths of seabed, and then rehabilitating land and aquifers that have been saturated in saltwater for centuries. But I guess if you have the resources in place to build a 15km wide, 900 m tall dam, then that shouldn't be too big of a deal! It's not really worth the effort, because the amount of manpower put into it would be better used on other infrastructure projects. I feel like it might make sense to try and do some height control of the Med through dams or something at both Gibraltar and Suez because of rising sea-levels due to global warming, but you also have to take into account that you need to make sure that ships can travel through as well, further complicating things. Adding hydroelectric into the situation sounds like it would make things even more ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 03:19
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:That seems to make a bit more sense, but honestly, if you're in effect trying to get at solar power, you're really much better off getting it through solar panels rather than cycles of evaporation and hydroelectric. While the whole prospect is a pipe dream, you may find that it's actually more expensive to manufacture solar plants at that quantity. Remember that building solar panels from silicon is in itself an immense investment of energy required to purify the stuff in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 15:33
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:That seems to make a bit more sense, but honestly, if you're in effect trying to get at solar power, you're really much better off getting it through solar panels rather than cycles of evaporation and hydroelectric. I think height control would be better than straight going 0 to 100 in a second. Slowly lowering it over a period of a few decades to reduce the chances of ecological disaster, Ships traveling through the mediterranean would need a similar system to the Three Gorge's Ship lift/lock system.  
WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jun 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 16:27
|
|
|
double post
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 16:31
|
|
|
OK, austerity is officially getting out of hand.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 17:09
|
|
|
Well, a drat on the strait would have pretty huge benefits to the whole of Yurope and the world in general, The original planner of this idea estimated that 50 Gigawatta could be produced by the day in 1940s standards. I do believe we could pump 2 or 3x more put of the dam, which would greatly reduce oil and gas dependence on parts of europe. Howevet the chances of an ecological disaster are loving huge with how capitalism is and we"d probably see at least some sort of disaster come from all of this. Whethere it be dust storms in europe, salt crises or floods.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 21:51
|
|
|
Outside the issues already presented, there is also the fact that you'd see the opposite effect of going up a mountain; the temperature would be higher in these low-lying areas than are the current coastlines. Hotter, drier, and saltier is not a recipe for an agricultural miracle. Hell, apart from the saltier part it's basically what's projected for the Mediterranean countries as is, and the forecast puts their future agricultural output as significantly lower than present some decades from now. Going the other way by using techniques that help retain water in an area and growing crops which are suited to the region would probably be a better idea. Like, the deserts of North Africa are basically what you'd be left with, so why not just try to improve them directly?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 22:20
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Outside the issues already presented, there is also the fact that you'd see the opposite effect of going up a mountain; the temperature would be higher in these low-lying areas than are the current coastlines. Hotter, drier, and saltier is not a recipe for an agricultural miracle. Hell, apart from the saltier part it's basically what's projected for the Mediterranean countries as is, and the forecast puts their future agricultural output as significantly lower than present some decades from now. Going the other way by using techniques that help retain water in an area and growing crops which are suited to the region would probably be a better idea. Like, the deserts of North Africa are basically what you'd be left with, so why not just try to improve them directly? You really want to be the one to tell that to the Fuhrer?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2015 22:59
|
|
|
Rather than draining the Mediterranean, what about restoring the Sahara to the verdant rainforest that it used to be?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 02:10
|
|
|
Friendly Tumour posted:While the whole prospect is a pipe dream, you may find that it's actually more expensive to manufacture solar plants at that quantity. Remember that building solar panels from silicon is in itself an immense investment of energy required to purify the stuff in the first place. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 02:21
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:At that sort of scale you'd skip photovoltaics entirely and just go for the 'bigass mirrors' route. PYF bigass fuckin solar plant  Gema Solar plant in Spain
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 03:14
|
|
|
Bigass mirrors are still expensive though, you're going to need to somehow bring the costs down of making mirrors if you want to mass produce them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 04:26
|
|
|
President Kucinich posted:Didn't you read the thread? The wind is going to blow all that salt away. You've convinced me, where can I get behind this referendum?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 04:36
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Rather than draining the Mediterranean, what about restoring the Sahara to the verdant rainforest that it used to be? Blanket the Sahara with mirrors, use electricity to desalinate the Med, dump the water on the Sahara to create rainforest.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 05:06
|
|
|
Grand Theft Autobot posted:You really want to be the one to tell that to the Fuhrer?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 05:25
|
|
|
sea level is rising anyhow. might as well put all that extra poo poo in the middle of nowhere instead of flooding every coastal city on the planet
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:That seems to make a bit more sense, but honestly, if you're in effect trying to get at solar power, you're really much better off getting it through solar panels rather than cycles of evaporation and hydroelectric.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 06:15
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Rather than draining the Mediterranean, what about restoring the Sahara to the verdant rainforest that it used to be? Use water from Medit to terraform sahara?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 08:19
|
|
|
sahara needs more salt
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 08:42
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Use water from Medit to terraform sahara? LeoMarr IDEA IN LOWTAX's 2015
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 15:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 22:33 |
|
|
Hi I'm an oceanographer and dabble in geology. You could indeed accomplish something like this by damming Gibraltar; as was mentioned earlier this happens occasionally on geological time scales. The sill between the Med and Atlantic is very shallow, and tectonic shifts cause it to pinch closed and then the Med mostly evaporates. One ecological aspect that hasn't been mentioned is that evaporating some of the Med would make the remaining volume of water that much saltier. That would be extremely stressful on the ecosystem. Setting aside the ecological disasters it would cause, you've also got all the infrastructure and economy built up on the existing shoreline. You're going to replace all that maritime shipping infrastructure, fishing industry, etc with below sea-level saline dust flats? Alright, sounds good. It is a Bad Idea.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 17:23
|
|