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also, because people started talking about anime i might as well, the standards of debate are already dead actually, anime is good just fyi if you see the phrase 'i only watch 80s anime' you officially know that person has no idea what they're talking about. 80s anime was basically lovely 80s toy shows but with slightly more ambitious writing. the animation sure as poo poo was no better outside of freak exceptions like akira, which was a godawful mess writing-wise. the golden age of tv anime was probably 1995 - 2005. the volume of top tier high quality shows being made like cowboy bebop took a hit in the late 2000s but has since rebounded and never actually went away, but the poo poo-tier garbage shows morphed from saturday morning toy shows to naruto and then finally to pedobait harem shows. which of course is bad and japan has lots of issues but there's a simple solution to the problem which is just don't watch those shows icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jul 17, 2015 |
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Jul 17, 2015 20:57
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I think when people talk about how great 80s anime are/were, they're usually referring to Ghibli's early works, rather than TV shows. To get this thread back to its original topic, how well do these various far-right denominations get along with each other? They obviously share similar views and presumably vote for the same candidates, but do they treat each other with respect, or are they constantly at each other's throats due to small differences in interpreting scripture?
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Jul 17, 2015 22:06
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Never underestimate the ability of goons to defend anime.
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Jul 17, 2015 22:36
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Samuel Clemens posted:To get this thread back to its original topic, how well do these various far-right denominations get along with each other? They obviously share similar views and presumably vote for the same candidates, but do they treat each other with respect, or are they constantly at each other's throats due to small differences in interpreting scripture? From my experience with members of those denominations, it just depends on the person and the circumstance. The Assemblies of God and the Southern Baptist Convention, for example, are both far-right Evangelical organizations with vastly different theologies. But I've never seen any official church statements trashing each other, and they tend to stand together on "big" (read: political) issues. I'm sure if the AG were to start marrying gays, the SBC would drop it like a hot potato. For individual Christians, it's trickier, because it goes beyond the political and into the spiritual. I have a cousin who believes that anyone not in the SBC is going to Hell. I have friends who think that mandatory baptism is ridiculous, and more family arguing that speaking in tongues is of the devil. However, those people would never disrespect each other (face-to-face, anyway), because they have greater struggles to face. Like the Methodists.
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Jul 17, 2015 23:23
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Samuel Clemens posted:I think when people talk about how great 80s anime are/were, they're usually referring to Ghibli's early works, rather than TV shows. That answer is...kind of complex but from what I see it's mostly they agree on big sweeping things (gays are evil, Islam is run by the devil, the Pope is a servant of Baal/Catholicism is dumb, etc.) and understand they're ultimately part of the same movement but seem largely focused on fighting those people, if that makes sense. I think that's a deliberate thing done by the right wing hate machine, the right wing media, and overall religious leaders in general. If you pay careful attention the only thing they ever seem to say is this vague thing of "Christianity being under attack" or vague things like "you should believe X and vote for politicians that also believe X." Mostly though their "I MUST FITE U" thoughts are directed toward whoever they're otherising at the moment. That and abortion. Right now I feel like it's kind of this weird combination of understanding they can only do anything if they work together as a whole while secretly cursing each other with eternal damnation for Doing It Wrong. Even so a common attitude is "well at least they're Christian" if the other Christian hates gays and abortion enough. The extreme isolationist churches and the Christian agrarian movement are actually a minority in a minority as far as evangelicals go. Oddly enough most evangelicals don't scream about tiny doctrinal differences sending one to Hell so long as you believe the important things. But then also look at other denominations as "Christian but a bit misguided." And yes there is a lot of logical inconsistency in that and it's a question nobody seems to have answered. They're united behind such flags as "kill all gays" or "evolution is wrong" but I guarantee you that they'd immediately start tearing at each other if gays and evolution somehow vanished.
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Jul 17, 2015 23:24
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Shbobdb posted:Never underestimate the inability of goons to let anime be mentioned in any capacity without either defending it or launching into an angry tirade about how the Japs are all pedophile degenerates and we should have nuked them all in the war trololol Samuel Clemens posted:I think when people talk about how great 80s anime are/were, they're usually referring to Ghibli's early works, rather than TV shows. No, the shows usually cited with that are like Akira or GITS or Cowboy Bebop, nevermind that wasn't even from the 80s. I don't think they mean Ghibli
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Jul 17, 2015 23:26
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icantfindaname posted:No, the shows usually cited with that are like Akira or GITS or Cowboy Bebop, nevermind that wasn't even from the 80s. I don't think they mean Ghibli Some anime is good. Some anime is bad. OK, argument over let's stop talking about it sorry I brought it up. Really the existence of anime is related to the conversation. The minutia of anime is not.
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Jul 17, 2015 23:28
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ToxicSlurpee posted:That's actually one of the sticking points both between the fundy Protestants and the Catholic Church. The current doctrine of Catholicism is basically that if science proved something than God made the universe that way and we can't be questioning that. 2 + 2 always equals 4. That's provable. God made the universe in such a way that 2 + 2 is always equal to 4. If science proves that the universe is billions of years old then God must have made it that way. This entire area is something that the Catholics are WAY out in front of. They're perfectly fine with evolution and the big bang, and they're one of the few sects that would be unfazed if tomorrow we discover radio signals from an alien civilization. Hell, there are even Jesuit monks doing very good science. My guess is that the Church remembers its lesson from the seventeenth century. They STILL have egg on their face over that whole Galileo affair.
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Jul 17, 2015 23:29
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Pththya-lyi posted:Here are just a few people who have made GI Joe part of their adult identity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIXS6N47BBY
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Jul 18, 2015 01:07
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Powered Descent posted:This entire area is something that the Catholics are WAY out in front of. They're perfectly fine with evolution and the big bang, and they're one of the few sects that would be unfazed if tomorrow we discover radio signals from an alien civilization. Hell, there are even Jesuit monks doing very good science. Galileo was persecuted because he was a massive rear end in a top hat who was as obnoxious as possible at all times and also an open plaigarist, and even then he only had his books banned Really the Catholic Church has always been a patron and protector of science and academia. The dumb meme about the Christian Dark Ages or whatever is the literal opposite of reality, most Greek philosophy was integrated into Catholic thought from the start. The anti-science is pretty much just fundie Protestant stuff icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 01:15
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icantfindaname posted:Galileo was persecuted because he was a massive rear end in a top hat who was as obnoxious as possible at all times and also an open plaigarist, and even then he only had his books banned icantfindaname posted:Really the Catholic Church has always been a patron and protector of science and academia. The dumb meme about the Christian Dark Ages or whatever is the literal opposite of reality, most the of Greek philosophy was integrated into Catholic thought from the start. The anti-science is pretty much just fundie Protestant stuff Criticisms of the medieval class system fall apart from criticisms of the scientific views of the Catholic Church though, so the church hierarchy can be criticized without calling them anti-intellectual.
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Jul 18, 2015 01:37
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The Catholic Church is getting more progressive the last few years as they are worried about its own decline over the next few decades. Not as in membership of actual catholics, but of priests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_shortage_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church Give it another 20 years, and the next Pope or two will allow women priests.
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Jul 18, 2015 03:29
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Even so the current scientific consensus is nothing more than "God might exist." Fact is we just flat out don't know. Granted that's another reason the fundies dislike science. They hate uncertainty and preach unwavering faith in whatever you believe. Anybody trying to prove you wrong on anything at all is the devil trying to lead you astray. Which is why Young Earth Creationism is such an awful, awful thing and why evolution gets under so much fire. Granted when it comes to evolution that comes under fire because it suggests that God didn't create mankind directly at all which ruins quite a lot of arguments they make based on Biblical stories. Of course the Catholic view is that one story turning out to be false doesn't ruin the rest of the religion. If it turns out that stories like Adam and Eve or Noah are literally impossible and never happened it only disproves those stories specifically and not everything else. This is going back a few posts, but this was a big part of my experience. Most modern evangelicals take the Bible as an all-or-nothing proposition - either every word is (more or less) literally true or none of it is. If Genesis 1-3 didn't happen literally as written, for instance, then the whole thing is a big sham and faith is dead forever. You think fundamentalists get antsy about science, you should get them talking about theology some time. I know plenty of people who think theology programs are where good Christians go to lose their faith. "They teach you that the bible is wrong!" Never mind of course that basically every other major Christian sect deals with it just fine.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:50
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FuzzySkinner posted:
This kind of thinking is why I love the music video for "God's Not Dead" (which I have to admit is a catchy tune) https://youtu.be/S_OTz-lpDjw
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Jul 18, 2015 21:24
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The only person I've seen that tried to actually "prove" the absence of God was a douchelord philosophy professor who quite obviously had tenure. His textbook was his own book, so we were essentially paying him for a book of other peoples' writing (Kant, et al).
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Jul 18, 2015 23:46
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Idiot Kicker posted:The only person I've seen that tried to actually "prove" the absence of God was a douchelord philosophy professor who quite obviously had tenure. His textbook was his own book, so we were essentially paying him for a book of other peoples' writing (Kant, et al). How frequently did marines spontaneously burst into existence in that class and punch him in the face?
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Jul 19, 2015 00:21
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I went to the Rock N' Roll Hall of Fame today for the first time ever. After you go through kind of learning about the roots of rock n' roll (jazz, blues, country, etc), you're fed through a segment about a group of conservatives, evangelicals, politicians, etc all being against rock music, and calling for censorship. One of the people featured in the video was someone who I have a laugh at when on the air via our local christian station was, Janet Parshall. In a video that was shot in the early 90's. It was weirdly comforting to know how much of a joke she's considered by many people. I've heard her particular brand of Evangelical Politics for the past couple of years while driving to and from work. She's completely anti-LGBT in the most "Bless Your Heart" sort of way, and is very much intellectually dishonest in her arguments. Also people were mocking her and other figures in the video. Calling them "Frauds". It's rather incredible how absurd they look, and still do at this point.
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Jul 19, 2015 04:08
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FuzzySkinner posted:I went to the Rock N' Roll Hall of Fame today for the first time ever. Now consider that these people were actually very, very influential in the 1980's and think about how terrifying it is that these people actually have influence over others. It's easy to laugh now but in the 1980's they were a very real threat. They may not have succeeded in instituting full theocracy or getting all the things they wanted banned but they managed to convince large sectors of the population to not allow their children to play D&D or listen to anything with an electric guitar. As ridiculous as they are I have trouble laughing at them.
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Jul 19, 2015 04:16
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Now consider that these people were actually very, very influential in the 1980's and think about how terrifying it is that these people actually have influence over others. It's easy to laugh now but in the 1980's they were a very real threat. They may not have succeeded in instituting full theocracy or getting all the things they wanted banned but they managed to convince large sectors of the population to not allow their children to play D&D or listen to anything with an electric guitar. Well and it kind of backfired on them in a lot of ways. Short term? It did wonders for them among older Americans who were frightened quite easy by these type of things. It got them to send money to their "cause" and allowed a lot of elected officials to come into office. (The Fox News circa 1955-1985 if you will). Long term? Well....Uh, we've seen the results in recent years. I do think that although the modern day GOP field may say different? That the average American would have little in common with those lunatics, and would very much groan if they were stuck in a room with them for far too often. I do think quite often they get a pass from other Christians that probably don't share their narrow view of "Values", just because they're able to very quickly able to stamp the word "Christian" on it. The difference between say, a Southern Baptist and a Methodist for example are worlds a part, yet Joe Church goer doesn't really know that or know the specifics. Also a lot of people became more and more intrigued by the groups these people got pissy about and as a result? Started to listen to them more and more. What wound up happening was those groups wound up becoming probably more popular as a result, and people soon found out that these people were full of nonsense. You wind up finding out that the artists were pretty much Catholic, Jewish, or non-religious. Hell, SLAYER has a few devout Catholics in their group IIRC. You wind up finding out that everyone is pretty fallible, no one is perfect, including those within the church. You also discover that these artists are often using such imagery to seem "cool", grab attention or to make some sort of artistic statement. I was within a church and a christian school that pretty much frowned upon a great deal of the music I was beginning to get into. I kind of credit listening to new music and watching new forms of media as a result of me turning into the "liberal" I am today in a lot of ways.
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Jul 19, 2015 06:22
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One of the main thing that changed was the rhetoric. They've cooled off on the Satanic panic crap because it doesn't get the attention it used to but they've wrapped it in easier to swallow code words. This is why you hear things like "family values" and whatnot or why a hell of a lot of the message is "vote R to save babies!!!!" What they were doing quit working so they shifted tactics. Now they're also screeching about the shrinking percentage of America that is white as if it's genocide which was kind of another thing they set up themselves that bit them in the rear end later. Their greatest difficulty is that they separated the world into "us" and "not us" and declared the "not us" not people. "Us" of course means WASPS. Of course I think part of why they're bitching about the Catholics is that the Church is actually adapting with the times and isn't rabidly anti-progress. Of course "us" also wants to freeze time 60 years ago in a fantasy land version of 1950's America. Anyway...their biggest problem is that they shrank the possible traits of "us' smaller and smaller. One of the biggest (and yes this ties heavily into racism and xenophobia) was the whole single drop garbage. If you have one single drop of not-white blood then you are not white and are not in "us." If you have one single incorrect belief (which can be as small as "doesn't hate the gays enough") then you are not in "us." Their demographic is shrinking largely by their own design. They set up an exclusive little club, didn't let new blood in, and are now dying off. The messages they've been vomiting have shifted toward things that sound nicer but the core is still there. "Family values" voters are really anti-gay activists that want marriage to only happen in churches. That of course meaning that you can't marry outside of your community. Which means miscegenation is less likely to happen. "We just want to save babies" also comes with it 1950's-style family dynamics. Dad is in charge, mom mostly just shits out and cares for babies, and the family has been subjugated to dad's will. But if Daughter Sally wants to play bass, shave her head, and join a punk band suddenly it's the devil's influence causing her to stray, which is only more likely to drive her out of the movement permanently. Among "us" she is now tainted. She isn't wifely. She might delay having children. Hell she may never even get married. She might have sex with more than one man in her life. She's a sinner and must be cast out. If she reforms her ways and acts like "us" again then she's going to be viewed as second-class "us" at best, especially if she does something awful like dates a black guy or gets pregnant out of wedlock. Which is another thing; single mothers were absolutely scorned, even if it was a case of her husband dying or some other misfortune. An unmarried mother was shunned and probably driven out, taking her children with her. If you weren't "us" enough you were not treated well and probably left. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 06:34
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FuzzySkinner posted:What wound up happening was those groups wound up becoming probably more popular as a result, and people soon found out that these people were full of nonsense. You wind up finding out that the artists were pretty much Catholic, Jewish, or non-religious. Hell, SLAYER has a few devout Catholics in their group IIRC.
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Jul 19, 2015 12:12
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Idiot Kicker posted:The only person I've seen that tried to actually "prove" the absence of God was a douchelord philosophy professor who quite obviously had tenure. His textbook was his own book, so we were essentially paying him for a book of other peoples' writing (Kant, et al). You can't disprove God as a concept, but I think it's reasonable to assert that certain versions of God are disprovable. For example, there are those who take the problem of evil as proof that a tri-omni God can't exist. "Supernatural being" can't be disproven, but once specific claims start being made about what this God is or does or wants, you can at least make a solid counterargument.
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Jul 19, 2015 14:59
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All assuming that the human concepts of logic would apply to an omnipotent God, which is really kind of an interesting intersection of Jewish monotheism and Greek philosophy that the early Church theologians ran into. Christian Mysticism is still very much a thing.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:43
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:I think it's reasonable to assert that certain versions of God are disprovable. Like all human interpretations of God. Sure, the concept that something has to be there from the start, and keeps defining what an atom or particle is from moment to moment. But a beardy chap who sent himself down in the form of his son, or wants a part of your cock cut off, or has the face of an elephant, or fought ice giants, or cares about minutae like a human being in a universe this size, those can be disproven.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:30
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happyhippy posted:Like all human interpretations of God. Depends on what you meak by "disprove", really. Can we demonstrate 100% that Odin is not battling frost giants in Jotunheim? Not really. Obviously the burden of proof falls on those who would claim he is, but that's religion. Faith is a key feature.
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Jul 19, 2015 23:25
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vintagepurple posted:Depends on what you meak by "disprove", really. Can we demonstrate 100% that Odin is not battling frost giants in Jotunheim? Science shows that giant humans can not exist as they would collapse or suffocate under their own weight. Therefore Odin is a lying bitch.
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Jul 19, 2015 23:37
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happyhippy posted:Science shows that giant humans can not exist as they would collapse or suffocate under their own weight.
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Jul 19, 2015 23:41
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happyhippy posted:Science shows that giant humans can not exist as they would collapse or suffocate under their own weight. Did you ever stop to ask yourself how he defeated the ice giants? Maybe he changed physics so that was true but we could still survive.  Indeed the ways of the gods are mysterious.
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Jul 20, 2015 00:00
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Guavanaut posted:Gravity is different in Jotunheim due to its position on the world tree. You still need more complex and complicated biology to overcome bigger bodies. Also, speaking of gravity, "The whole world was created from the corpse of the first Jotun, named Ymir. It was Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve, who killed Ymir." Ymir had his own gravity well, alive and dead. How the gently caress is that possible to be that alive at that size.
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Jul 20, 2015 00:04
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Frost Giants are superconductive. Obviously.
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Jul 20, 2015 00:09
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"The limits of my language are the limits of my world." If you can't define God, then sure, I can't dispute it, but why would I bother? Does fngth exist? You can't prove fngth doesn't, so the reasonable position is to be agnostic on fngth.
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Jul 20, 2015 05:40
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Shbobdb posted:"The limits of my language are the limits of my world." If you can't define God, then sure, I can't dispute it, but why would I bother? Does fngth exist? You can't prove fngth doesn't, so the reasonable position is to be agnostic on fngth. If you grew up with your whole life being taught fngth exists and your entire social circle believes in fngth it can be pretty hard to stop believing in fngth.
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Jul 20, 2015 08:28
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All we can say of fngth is that it is not htgnf.
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Jul 20, 2015 08:33
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In the aftermath of the Chattanooga shooting, have some discussion material. Here's the website of the ministry in question.
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Jul 20, 2015 14:29
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vintagepurple posted:Depends on what you meak by "disprove", really. Can we demonstrate 100% that Odin is not battling frost giants in Jotunheim? Well I'm not contending that every conception of God is disprovable. But certainly some are, and they are disprovable the same way anything is disprovable: by comparing hypothesis to reality. Take the version of the Christian God where every statement about him in the Bible is true. This God is impossible. Why? Because 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God wants everyone to be saved, and Ephesians 2:8 says that people are saved through faith, which is a gift from God. God wants all to be saved, and saving them is purely his own doing. Of course, we see in the world that more people than not don't have that "gift of faith". So either the Bible is wrong about faith being a gift, or it's wrong about God wanting all to be saved. Either way, this specific God is disproven.
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Jul 20, 2015 16:12
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ToxicSlurpee posted:If you grew up with your whole life being taught fngth exists and your entire social circle believes in fngth it can be pretty hard to stop believing in fngth. That's fine and perfectly understandable but it's not a justification. People presenting agnosticism as anything other than a rhetorical device are doing the whole discussion a disservice.
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Jul 21, 2015 14:56
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Well I'm not contending that every conception of God is disprovable. But certainly some are, and they are disprovable the same way anything is disprovable: by comparing hypothesis to reality. The thing to keep in mind here is that the Bible itself is the god that Christians in America worship. The actual deity described within it is irrelevant and most of the denominations straight up claim this. The Bible is The Word and The Word is Jesus Christ. Worship The Word. Etc.
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Jul 21, 2015 15:03
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Umm.. What Christians are these because... No it's not. Jesus was God made man, who walked among us, suffered death to redeem our sins and was resurrected on the third day. The Bible is a book, albeit one meant to help impart the lessons God wants us to learn and to bring us the news of Jesus. At least that would be the Christian perspective, which is one of the interesting departures in the the treatment of sacred scripture between Christianity and Islam. By the time the Qu'ran was fully brought together in Islam it had acquired the status of being the direct word of God himself, transcribed as he spoke. Historically pretty loving dubious but in establish Islamic theology the Qu'ran is God's revelation, so technically for Muslims burning a Qu'ran is a lot close to burning Jesus than burning the Bible.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:13
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MrNemo posted:Umm.. What Christians are these because... No it's not. *looks at post* *looks at title of thread* Golly, this sure is a tough mystery!
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Jul 21, 2015 18:06
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MrNemo posted:The Bible is a book, albeit one meant to help impart the lessons God wants us to learn and to bring us the news of Jesus. You're confusing long-established Christian theology with American Fundamentalism, it's a very common mistake. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Only_movement
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Jul 21, 2015 18:36
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