|
I've been holding this for the longest time, but I've finally decided to go through with it: I feel like this is an important enough issue to be discussed in full and with perspectives from all sides (yes, all sides. Just be sure to give a rational reason why you feel ideology A gets way too vilified or gets unfair precedence of ideology B ) Basically, what makes a person turn to these particular ideologies? Lack of education or information? A great majority of the people I come across online with these ideologies are ironically young men with Middle Class income with Graduate Degrees. Hell, some are married with children. What exactly is the problem here? They usually reside nowhere near the areas they deem unsafe
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:18 |
|
|
They're assholes OP
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:40
|
|
|
Upper middle class white guys with lovely opinions justifying their lovely opinions because they can't stand being wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:41
|
|
|
It's a backlash from the election of Barack Obama, OP.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:42
|
|
|
Rename to Zeitgueist supporter thread
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:44
|
|
croc suit posted:Rename to Zeitgueist supporter thread 
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:45
|
|
|
Objectivism just isn't far enough to the right for them e: that, or a lot of them saw the Tracer Tong ending in Deus Ex and thought it looked p cool instead of being loving insane
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:46
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Upper middle class white guys with lovely opinions justifying their lovely opinions because they can't stand being wrong. Im trying my level best to try and see this issue from alternative perspectives Basically, they feel like there's a war against White people (Particularly Heterosexual White Men). They feel this way due to certain ideologies that conflict with their own (that are "Anti-White") being more pervasive. BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jul 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:56
|
|
|
The president is a ni*boooooong*
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:58
|
|
|
Race Realists posted:Im trying my level best to try and see this issue from alternative perspectives Wealthy Christian white men ran the world for, you know, a few centuries. The whole world. All of it. That's going away and now wealthy Christian white men are getting cranky that they have to give everybody else stupid things like "rights" and "enough money to not starve to death."
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:58
|
|
|
The main reason I even made this thread is because I feel these particular groups are growing at an alarming rate. Its gotten to a point where they cannot be ignored anymore.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:59
|
|
Race Realists posted:The main reason I even made this thread is because I feel these particular groups are growing at an alarming rate. Its gotten to a point where they cannot be ignored anymore. They still can, actually. They're less mainstream than even a minor twitter blowup.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:59
|
|
|
Its not just America, look at what's going on in the UK and Europe.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:00
|
|
|
A more pertinent discussion might be why the rabid marxists on this forum so often turn out to be pedophiles and sexual deviants
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:01
|
|
Race Realists posted:Its not just America, look at what's going on in the UK and Europe. Those are old-school racists. This stuff might emerge after another decade or two into the mainstream, in the same way that similar fringe nonsense from the aftermath of Watergate and Watts became the core of the militia movement in the 90s, but right now its main figure is a dude who calls himself "Mencius Moldbug".
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:03
|
|
|
Race Realists posted:
I sometimes have the same idea, but it really isn't. You're only seeing it because you frequent places they focus on trying to "recruit" from. If you take a step back you realize how little of a voice these people really have. They rely on having a popular, ready made platform they can exploit. More seasoned fringe ideologies, like stormfront, are invested enough in their "cause" that they can and do maintain their own spaces. But things like the Dark Enlightenment, GamerGate, general reactionary stuff, etc. are just full of angry internet nerds. That's why you see them all the time online, to the point that it's hard to get away from it in places like reddit, the chans, and facebook (and places like that). You ever wonder why GG hates places like NeoGaf? Why the "free speech fundamentalists" are starting to lose their poo poo over reddit? It's because they can't maintain their own spaces. They basically need an established platform to take advantage of because a "safe space" for them is something no one wants to join which means they're just shouting into the void, which isn't want they want. Just take a look at VOAT. It's a reddit clone made by the "freeze peach fundies" after reddit started banning subforms for literal child pornography and harassment. So they made their own site, stupidly hosted it in Germany, filled it with CP and Nazi rhetoric, and got it shut down. These people may be very common, but they're totally loving worthless at actually getting anything done. quote:Basically, what makes a person turn to these particular ideologies? The best answer really is that they are just assholes. Some percentage of them are teenage edgelords who just want to stir poo poo up. Some are just trolls. Some are just broken people who honestly wish that the current day was just like TYOOL 1950 but with video games and fast internet and netflix. But to get away from that simple answer, I'll say part of the reason you see people really getting loud lately is because over the last 10 years the internet has fundamentally transformed itself. And in the last couple of years the biggest change is: Who is using the internet, and what they are doing with it. The demographics are, and have been, rapidly shifting from "traditional" nerds and basement dwellers, to the the general public. And you know what? The General public kinda doesn't like being called a human being every other sentence, poo poo loads of casual and blatant racism, and has no interest in listening to 400 lbs, fedora clad, neckbeards talk about what women really should be doing. The reason these people are pissing and moaning so much is because they're now on the losing side of the demographic shift. Before they could say "Well if you don't like it: tough. The majority of users like it and that's what we cater to". But now they're not the majority anymore and have shifted to either half baked diatribes on "free speech", which to them basically means "I get to harass women/minorities/fat people/etc all I want and you can't complain about it", or they're trying to promote an even less baked scheme of "Actually it's a totally good idea to just change the whole system and just be complete assholes to everyone and put white men at the top of the social hierarchy!". TL;DR: They're piss babies moaning about the fact that no one likes them and now they're outnumbered on the one place they had to feel like they had any power at all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:14
|
|
|
they're angry people who feel like they are naturally more intelligent thus they are compelled to dress up their anger in a ten thousand word rationalization i wish you good luck and god speed with your thread, op
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:19
|
|
|
Women say no, so they want to roll back the clock to a time when women didn't have the right to say no. On anything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:01
|
|
|
Klaus88 posted:Women say no, so they want to roll back the clock to a time when women didn't have the right to say no. On anything. Also black people. Also also poor people in general.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:06
|
|
|
It's the Temporarily Inconvenienced Millionaire effect. They were told from elementary school that they were smarter than the average kid, and more often than not, the were. Every now and then this would get them bullied by the popular kids and they'd tell themselves "Just wait until I graduate college, then I'll invent something big and buy and sell all your asses" Then they made it to their twenties and thirties, but they're not Bill Gates yet. Something had to have gone wrong. I'm not saying they should have realized the game was rigged and joined the Marxist revolution, in fact far from it. I'm saying that they could have been happy with a decent white-collar job in a field they love, where all their needs are paid for and their families will never go hungry, but instead they want to rule the world and the world is not letting them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:08
|
|
|
Crain posted:or they're trying to promote an even less baked scheme of "Actually it's a totally good idea to just change the whole system and just be complete assholes to everyone and put white men at the top of the social hierarchy!". When called on this, they immediately try to convince whoever they're debating that they have no problems with Asians and Statistically Speaking Asians are the Superior ones "It's not hate, it's the truth" My personal pet peeve with them is their habit of constantly alluding to 1984, using words from the book like "ThoughtCrime" and what not, in attempt to style themselves as victims and misunderstood intellectuals. EDIT: Klaus88 posted:Women say no, so they want to roll back the clock to a time when women didn't have the right to say no. On anything. Oddly enough, I'm seeing a fair amount of women in these movements. BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Jul 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:12
|
|
|
DarklyDreaming posted:I'm not saying they should have realized the game was rigged and joined the Marxist revolution, in fact far from it. I'm saying that they could have been happy with a decent white-collar job in a field they love, where all their needs are paid for and their families will never go hungry, but instead they want to rule the world and the world is not letting them. I'd say it's not just the world isn't letting them but more that the world didn't fall into their laps as they expected it would. It's not so much that the world is resisting them, so much as it doesn't even notice them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
NLJP posted:They're assholes OP
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:I prefer to think of them as Ron Paul Racists. So...just racists. Also I think we can clearly blame anime for like 90% of this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:16
|
|
|
Race Realists posted:I've been holding this for the longest time, but I've finally decided to go through with it: OP, who are these people you want to otherize? Should I hate them or just condescendingly brush them off? TIA.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:23
|
|
wateroverfire posted:OP, who are these people you want to otherize? Should I hate them or just condescendingly brush them off? They're racists and fascists, so you should feel right at home.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:24
|
|
|
You can't use Racist. That word is overused so it doesn't apply to them and their arguments. You can't use Fascist. That word is overused so it doesn't apply to them and their arguments. You can't use Bigot. That word is overused so it doesn't apply to them and their arguments. You can't use White Supremacist. That word is overused so it doesn't apply to them and their arguments (see Asian IQ post). You can't use Nazi. That word is overused so it doesn't apply to them and their arguments and also I'm Jewish/Half(insert ethnicity here) A great majority of them seem to come from the South Park school of political thought where Liberals/Left Wing should hold themselves to some sort of Strawman where every opinion should be tolerated by them "You should also be tolerant of the intolerant!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:25
|
|
|
Crain posted:So...just racists. Crain posted:Also I think we can clearly blame anime for like 90% of this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:28
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:OP, who are these people you want to otherize? Should I hate them or just condescendingly brush them off? Please state your worldview/grievances here. Just state your reasons for believing in such.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:29
|
|
|
They don't understand (or willfully ignore) the concept of privilege and are unable to accept that maybe, just maybe, their relative success in life isn't exclusively due to their ubermensch bootstraps mindset.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:32
|
|
|
Race Realists posted:Please state your worldview/grievances here. Just state your reasons for believing in such. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fOpLDc2RF0 As for grievances life seems pretty good actually.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:33
|
|
|
Crain posted:The best answer really is that they are just assholes. Some percentage of them are teenage edgelords who just want to stir poo poo up. Some are just trolls. Some are just broken people who honestly wish that the current day was just like TYOOL 1950 but with video games and fast internet and netflix.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:38
|
|
|
My impression of these movements or groups is that at present they are still novel and fluid enough to attract people from a variety of backgrounds and stances, provided those people share a few common beliefs. If these movements stick around and gain any kind of traction then they'll probably coalesce around a more coherent and strict set of ideas but for now they're in that fun early part of movement building where the final outline of what is being built isn't yet set in stone. As for what motivates these folks to join a movement that is seemingly trying to blend Mussolini and Tolkien? That's a complicated answer. The best suggest I could offer, at the risk of being somewhat reductive, is that the core membership are largely white, male and middle class individuals who feel, with a certain amount of justification, that they are currently history's big losers. On the one hand globalization is dramatically reducing their economic opportunities, but on the other hand they aren't being compensated with the gains that traditionally subaltern groups like women, blacks and gays are currently enjoying. In many specific cases I suspect you'd find that Dark Enlightenment types are nurturing some kind of specific grievance or believe they're somehow being held back. This at least seems to be the case for some related movements like MRAs, many of whom seemingly are incels or husbands on the losing sides of custody battles. Of course this answer isn't entirely adequate because some of the leaders of the movement seem to live fairly comfortable lives working in the tech industry. Perhaps they feel threatened by women or the ability of women to say no to their desires but that's pure speculation on my part. And ultimately, of course, some people join these movements not out of personal distress but because they find the ideas themselves appealing, much in the way that not all (or even necessarily most) Marxists are oppressed proletarians toiling under the bootheel of capitalism. An ethical or political system is, necessarily, also an aesthetic one, and it's perhaps not surprising that many internet dwelling nerds with backgrounds in STEM degrees might be attracted to a belief system that, in addition to flattering their egos, also presents a very black and white worldview with clearcut answers, well defined in and out groups, and a lot of references to their favourite media.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:35
|
|
|
I've had this theory about nerd narratives in the back of my head for a minute, and I think it's pretty relevant to this point, so if you don't mind me writing through it: One of the problems with modern nerd culture (written here as a wide-ranging generalization that encompasses everything from fan communities to STEM fields) isn't necessarily that nerds think they're smarter than they are (although that sure does happen), but that a lot of nerds don't realize how many kinds of intelligence there are. They have a tendency to mistake specialization for broad focus, that because a given individual has mastered an intellectually rigorous, demanding discipline (engineering, computer programming, hard sciences, etc.) they thus have great insight into all fields of human endeavor. They're Smart People, and thus all their opinions should be taken seriously. This mostly came up as part of a discussion as to why many people in STEM fields, like engineers and programmers, seem to end up as objectivists or die-hard libertarians. The usual reaction is to say that you'd think they'd be smarter than that, but the fact that they are smart in that specific field in which they're hopelessly specialized is why they hold those beliefs. They're Smart People, so they think "That sounds good" (because it plays on the idea, openly or otherwise, that Smart People are better than everyone else) and immediately erect a framework up around it, because a Smart Person wouldn't just believe this kind of thing for no reason. If you then attack that framework, you're then unwittingly attacking part of the Smart Person's self-image, and they tend to react with anger or denial. By the same token, it's why some of the most virulent, angry climate-change deniers come from other hard sciences. There's a guy who's got a Nobel Prize in physics, I don't recall his name offhand, who made a second career out of attacking climate models, but every time he opened his mouth about it, you could tell his opposition was entirely because he hated liberals. You'd think an award-winning physicist would look at the models first, but no: he's a Smart Person, so he wants you to take him seriously. (I work in the video game industry, and what got me thinking along this road was running into an appalling number of self-professed nerds and geeks who nonetheless lacked basic critical thinking skills: ("I'm smart, and I believe it, so it's right." ("I had fun with this game, so that invalidates your complaint." ("I don't give a poo poo about female representation in video game narratives, thus nobody gives a poo poo." (I feel like you skipped a few steps there, sports fan.) That's the general attitude I see with the "race realists." They're just smart enough to erect that same self-aggrandizing framework around their beliefs. "I'm not racist," the race realist says, "but when you look at these data sets, it really looks like everyone darker than white is a rampaging subhuman." It's a rhetorical dodge so they don't have to admit they have an irrational bias, because what kind of Smart Person would just believe something for no reason?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:47
|
|
|
My take: they're the secular equivalent of Theosophists.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:49
|
|
|
I think another reason that they join, connected somewhat to your point that they 'they find the ideas themselves appealing' is that it has elements to make you feel powerful. You get a scapegoat (the 'Cathedral') that renders the political process an exercise in futility that is just there to appease the sheeple. You get a radical, small, and exclusive echo chamber club that isn't marred by the nuance of trying to discuss modern conservatism or socialism (which actually have real authors behind them). You get an out-there idea. There's nobody else (except possibly ISIS) trying to go full tilt reactionary to the other side of the enlightenment. In fact, it's so out there that it has never failed or been failed, again because nobody has thought it was a good idea to try. I can understand why the seemingly-hopeless-at-times uphill battle of defending the downtrodden achieve equality or even just providing a good existence for all could seem depressing, so here's a fanfic where you get to be a feudal lord instead! And it takes some cues from fascism to make you feel proud, feel powerful, feel like part of a unity above the 'enemy' or the 'degeneracy of the modern age'.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:52
|
|
|
I've noticed that sterilization is an Okay, Rational Solution to Ethno-Nationalists (particular White-Nationalists). Many of them seem to think how Israel is handling it's minority population is the Rational way. How would they go about it? Is that REALLY the proper way to deal with Poors/Minorities/Whatever group pisses you off?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 21:10
|
|
|
Race Realists posted:I've noticed that sterilization is an Okay, Rational Solution to Ethno-Nationalists (particular White-Nationalists). It was last time these fucks came into power, why would you think they'd balk at it again?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 21:12
|
|
|
Helsing posted:
See, I think this is playing a big part of it (aside from them just  -ing about losing their echo chambers). Everyone who isn't already rich has been doing worse lately. Things are getting better now, but it's not great for an average working dude. Especially in the tech industry (where a lot of this seems centered). So you have Average McWhitedude sitting in his cubicle in his kinda lame job getting nowhere. Then he see's minorities getting some support, women pushing for more rights like actual maternity leave/ fair pay, he see's homosexual marriage being legalized. And if he has no clue what privilege is, which is most likely the case, he goes "Well what the gently caress about ME!?". All the while he fails to realize that everyone else is just catching up to him, not surpassing him. No one is pushing for programs and benefits that specifically target White Men because up until recently EVERYTHING was targeted at them. It's literally thousands of people going "What about WHITE ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION!?" without a hint of irony. Crain fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 21:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:18 |
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:It was last time these fucks came into power, why would you think they'd balk at it again? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 21:19
|
|