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That's certainly the sequence of events, but we've also seen quite a few more clues  . I actually thought the mystery had a pretty clever answer, I'm interested to see what the thread thinks and if anyone puts it together ahead of time. I definitely didn't get it until after it was all laid out and explained in the LN.
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Aug 8, 2015 18:47
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is this a new op or have i just been skipping it every other episode
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Aug 8, 2015 20:33
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Cake Attack posted:is this a new op or have i just been skipping it every other episode If you're talking about last week's (as opposed to today's, which I haven't watched yet), then yeah, that's a new OP.
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Aug 8, 2015 20:37
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yeah there was a new OP last week, today's episode uses it too.
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Aug 8, 2015 20:58
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oh lol i didn't notice it last week
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Aug 8, 2015 20:59
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new ED this week for Flamie, too. still have absolutely no idea what's going on in regards to the mystery though 
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Aug 8, 2015 21:22
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this episode frustrates me they should all trust their highly suspicious friend adlet
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Aug 8, 2015 21:30
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If you can't trust a man who was serving a life sentence in prison and constantly lies about being the strongest man in the world, who can you trust? More thoughts coming soon, picking up the episode now.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:41
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Placing odds on the culprit having to be a woman who isn't Flamie, because of the Sun Saint stuff. She was mentioned in every episode prior to episode 5. She was mentioned as being killed as part of the Brave Killer stuff, but Flamie denied it. As the leader of the Heaven temple she kept track of the Saints, so to me it seems like her death was intended to cover up the true nature of a saint's abilities or maybe to get Maura into position as the leader. My guess is Nach or Maura, with Maura slightly in the lead at the moment.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:45
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yeah it's real hosed up how much control everybody has given Maura over the situation. pretty much any evidence pointing to her is only supposition though
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Aug 8, 2015 21:50
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 This doesn't seem like an effective way to aim.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:52
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That's why she's the Saint of Gundpowder and you're not.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:53
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she has a weird pulsing eye under there, who knows what it can do
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Aug 8, 2015 21:54
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Pulse, probably.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:57
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NowonSA posted:That's certainly the sequence of events, but we've also seen quite a few more clues Just asking may be spoilery, but do we have all the info necessary to put it together, or are there still unknown relevant details left? As for the episode... I noticed the music in a nice way and that flashback jump was affectingly jarring. I couldn't help but picture Celty Sturluson and Kanbaru getting the poo poo kicked out of them though. I'm mostly just happy that everyone has stayed in character in a scene involving tense group psychology (I'm thinking of you BtVS s7e19, and some others...). Maura takes on well the seasoned and sensible leader role. While she's reasonably suspicious of Adlet, you can see her focus on holding back rash action specifically from Chamot and Hans. She knows who the wild cards are... Except that she doesn't. I like how her failure to keep the situation under control doesn't really reflect poorly on her leadership capacity and judgement. Who would have thought Gandalf the straight laced tit-strap would swing first? Well... we would. Which keeps everyone in character while not undermining anyone. I'm also cool with Adlet being shaken and grasping at straws. This would be a reasonable place for the strongest man in the world to lose his composure. Whatever trumps he might have up his sleeve for Chamot and Hans, he's sandbagged with Nash and Flamio in the room. So yeah, I'm pretty sure he thought he might die. How many EDs have they gone through? I think I remember two before this one. I'm happy to see them cycle through their characters rather than hold to their pin-up.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:58
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Miscellaneous episode thoughts:
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Aug 8, 2015 22:03
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dogsicle posted:she has a weird pulsing eye under there, who knows what it can do I was going to say exactly this, I'd bet a Youma eye can see right through a piddley eyepatch, especially if she made one specifically for that purpose. LostRook posted:Placing odds on the culprit having to be a woman who isn't Flamie, because of the Sun Saint stuff. She was mentioned in every episode prior to episode 5. She was mentioned as being killed as part of the Brave Killer stuff, but Flamie denied it. As the leader of the Heaven temple she kept track of the Saints, so to me it seems like her death was intended to cover up the true nature of a saint's abilities or maybe to get Maura into position as the leader. Flamie said that the Sun Saint was low on her target list because she was old, and thus extremely unlikely to be chosen as a Saint. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly Maura has been in charge of keeping track of/training saints for a long time (years), though I believe she took over that role from the Sun Saint or beat her in whatever the nomination/election process was (my memory's a bit hazy on that). If the traitor killed the Sun Saint then I don't see why they'd have to be a woman or a Saint, our favorite cat assassin Mr. Humpty could probably do it no problem. She's described as being able to melt fortresses and such, but I'd wager she's perfectly vulnerable to sneak attacks. Adlet could presumably pull it off as well, if it wasn't abundantly clear that he's being set up. Ferretts posted:Just asking may be spoilery, but do we have all the info necessary to put it together, or are there still unknown relevant details left? Well, I'll put it this way, I think Batman could put it together based on what we've seen, but then he's the Goddamn Batman. If anyone figures out all the details on how the Traitor got into the temple and triggered the fog barrier without reading the LN or having it explained in the anime, I'll be pretty shocked. Somebody's probably going to figure out a piece of the answer before then though. In terms of how the traitor's barrier activation was pulled off, I don't think it's a spoiler to say that nobody is going to be caught red-handed with invisibility dust in their pocket leading to their capture. There isn't one single massive clue you're missing. I could expound on this, but what I was planning to say is too much of a hint, I'm doing enough damage as it is. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Aug 8, 2015 |
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Aug 8, 2015 22:09
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NowonSA posted:I think Batman could put it together... And now I have to watch this over from the beginning. 
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Aug 8, 2015 22:32
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Ferretts posted:And now I have to watch this over from the beginning. Good luck Mr. Wayne! I'm glad that you don't think I'm a traitor who is trying to trick people into watching an anime I like repeatedly. I'll do the full write-up with my thoughts on the episode and the changes I noticed from the LN in about 3-4 hours, I can't watch it at the moment.
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Aug 8, 2015 22:36
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Even though I've already read ahead, it's still nice to see things play out. Too bad about the low book sales though.
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Aug 8, 2015 22:37
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There's one important fact that seems to be left out of this discussion. Adlet didn't actually blow the door open. His explosives seemed to have barely scractched the thing. The explosion happens, and then the doors open a few seconds later for some reason. Further, the temple was "barely scratched" by the many bombs from the demons per Adlet when he was going up to it. Further, the magical guards were charging out after the door opened, but they didn't actually attack him. He cut them down as they were running out and seemingly past him. So if that's not just slippy animation, then it would seem Adlet is clear by the audience for breaking the seal as long as the explosion wasn't able to break the seal with such superficial damage. The seal breaker had to be past Adlet somewhere at the time the guards came out, which was before he looked away from the temple and chased the transforming demon, and just before the temple's activation. Also important here though seems to be that Maura has the key to the temple. She doesn't need to break the seal to enter. She would not trigger the guards, by her own admission. Assuming the door is only locked forever open if the door is opened improperly (so they could reuse the temple), she could simply prepare to wait inside the temple alone,.then activate the temple when the door opens. She was there 2 days ahead of Adlet and company. Maura wouldn't even need special walk-through-walls Saint of Mountain powers to get in. And with a name like "Saint of Mountains" I don't doubt she could also break the seal inside a stone building at an appropriate time. The main problem there is that she doesn't have a given way to know what's going on outside to know when to trigger the temple. On that note, why did Nash give Adlet one of her saint blades during his imprisonment? She can move her blades with precision while not looking at them, so maybe Saints can remotely sense things attached to their powers. Also of note is the statement from Hans that a demon could destroy the temple's seal, but they couldn't come inside to activate the barrier. So the sealbreaker could easily be a demon outside (the transforming one, perhaps?), but the important thing is who got inside to start the barrier. Ferretts posted:And now I have to watch this over from the beginning. Kylra fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Aug 8, 2015 |
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Aug 8, 2015 23:28
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NowonSA posted:
Being a woman goes to motivation, not means. A man could do it, yes, but they wouldn't have a reason to do so. It was stated that she was too old to be selected as a brave, so she was killed for a different reason. The other knowledge about her is that she trains and manages saints, which is the more likely relation to the motivation. She had information, and someone wished to silence her.
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Aug 8, 2015 23:49
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Evidence for Nashetanya not being entirely on the up and up: Flamie feels pain from the temple due to being a half-fiend. Nash feels weak inside the temple and has to sit down. Flamie's fiend eye is red. Nash has red eyes of the same color when they aren't shaded, even if she doesn't have the pulsing thing. The Saint of Blades is a new Saint according to Maura, and Maura doesn't not know Nash very well. This is also supposedly a rare occurance. Nash has bunny ears, a rather animalistic trait for a human. Maybe they're fake like Chamot's costume, but who knows? The key for the barrier is also a blade, and it's unknown if Nash can manipulate blades other than the ones she creates. She left in an awful big hurry from her country as soon as she got her flower symbol. I still think Maura is a bit more suspicious, but I still feel like there's a couple puzzle pieces I am missing noticing or thinking about to lock down a person. E: Maura says there are saints that could force it open, but none that could seal it back up. Even more leaning towards Maura since she can get in without break the seal, and supposedly has powers over rock that could break it open. She's also not quick to scapegoat Adlet though, unlike Chamot and Hans, but that might be a ploy to keep people divided as long as possible. Kylra fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 00:03
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Kylra posted:The Saint of Blades is a new Saint according to Maura, and Maura doesn't not know Nash very well. This is also supposedly a rare occurance. Wasn't Nach specifically mentioned as the 2nd Saint of Blades? I think the first was from the 2nd Demon invasion. Did someone else mention that Maura seems to know that Flamie is a brave on sight for some reason?
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Aug 9, 2015 00:07
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LostRook posted:Wasn't Nach specifically mentioned as the 2nd Saint of Blades? I think the first was from the 2nd Demon invasion. But Chamot is 14, so I dunno. quote:Did someone else mention that Maura seems to know that Flamie is a brave on sight for some reason? Kylra fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 00:10
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I checked and Nash does talk about a previous Saint of Blades.
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Aug 9, 2015 00:15
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LostRook posted:Being a woman goes to motivation, not means. A man could do it, yes, but they wouldn't have a reason to do so. It was stated that she was too old to be selected as a brave, so she was killed for a different reason. The other knowledge about her is that she trains and manages saints, which is the more likely relation to the motivation. She had information, and someone wished to silence her. Ah, yeah I was focused on means more than motivation. If you assume she has information, then that info is most likely about a saint, which makes the lady saints on the team bigger suspects. Kylra posted:Words Words Words I can confirm that the saint of seal's power means that once the door is open, it stays open. This is established pretty firmly in the LN by this point in the anime, both Hans and Maura say that's how the seal works and there's no reason to believe that both of them would be lying. According to Hans it can also trigger traps, like a cage of iron bars falling down on the person who tries to open the sealed door. It's not an overwhelmingly practical lock in that way, but I take it as her "seal" power literally acting as a seal, rather than a lock that can be reused. She basically puts the seal of freshness on the can of pickles, and once you break that you can't undo it. Ultimately, the power is just a way for the Author to set up a locked room mystery. Maura using her key would end the seal and cause the door to vanish, so she can't hide in there, do some dirty business, and then "re-seal" the temple with none the wiser. The key just triggers the end of the seal the normal way, with basically the same results we saw minus the angry suits of armor. Everyone is more than welcome to float theories that let someone enter the room before, or immediately after, Adlet undid the seal though, that's an entirely plausible solution. One idea I haven't seen yet is that someone with excellent disguise or escape abilities hid in the temple just before it was sealed a loooong time ago, kept their supplies in a hidden chamber that hasn't been found yet, then triggered the barrier and booked on out of there. The Saint of Escape maybe? The bombs could act as a way to warn that person, then after covering their tracks they wait for the door to open to trigger the barrier. Both sides have known this fight was coming for a couple hundred years, after all. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether an Adlet bomb is strong enough to open a Saint-sealed door though. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 00:15
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NowonSA posted:I can confirm that the saint of seal's power means that once the door is open, it stays open. This is established pretty firmly in the LN by this point in the anime, both Hans and Maura say that's how the seal works and there's no reason to believe that both of them would be lying. According to Hans it can also trigger traps, like a cage of iron bars falling down on the person who tries to open the sealed door. It's not an overwhelmingly practical lock in that way, but I take it as her "seal" power literally acting as a seal, rather than a lock that can be reused. She basically puts the seal of freshness on the can of pickles, and once you break that you can't undo it. Ultimately, the power is just a way for the Author to set up a locked room mystery. NowonSA posted:I'll leave it up to you to decide whether an Adlet bomb is strong enough to open a Saint-sealed door though. Kylra fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 00:34
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I'm dying to know how this turns out, so it's taking pretty much all my willpower not to go look up some spoilers but I also don't want to ruin the reveal for myself. Really enjoying the show even though it's also frustrating right now.
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Aug 9, 2015 00:37
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Kylra posted:
She sees Flamie pointing a gun at them and her reaction is "Don't be selfish, Chamot" which is a really weird reaction. The implications seem to be knowing both that Flamie is the Brave Killer and a Brave.
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Aug 9, 2015 00:37
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LostRook posted:She sees Flamie pointing a gun at them and her reaction is "Don't be selfish, Chamot" which is a really weird reaction. The implications seem to be knowing both that Flamie is the Brave Killer and a Brave. Everything Burrito posted:I'm dying to know how this turns out, so it's taking pretty much all my willpower not to go look up some spoilers but I also don't want to ruin the reveal for myself. Really enjoying the show even though it's also frustrating right now.
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Aug 9, 2015 00:39
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Kylra posted:True enough I suppose. Honestly I don't have much to add. I've been thinking about all of it, so maybe rewatching would help a little. I guess this last episode made me a little suspicious of Goldov, not necessarily as the false Brave but maybe working with/protecting Nashetanya. Some of the stuff you mentioned, particularly her reactions and the fact that the seal activates with a sword were things I was thinking about after the previous episode. I think it's been made clear from how he looks at her (and also from one of the endings that showed what I assume was their first meeting) he's totally head over heels for her and would do anything for her/to protect her. So if she was the seventh, I think it would make sense for them to operate as a unit and he could be covering for her actions re: setting off the seal remotely or whatever. Them traveling alone together when Adlet was off with Flamie would have provided opportunity for Nashetanya to recruit him if he wasn't already on board from the start. That would also give him some motivation to try and take out Adlet before he can clear his name. Of course I think he's also motivated by jealousy what with Nash being all over Adlet instead of him so taking a swing at Adlet could have just been a convenient way for him to remove a rival and for the show to move things along and have nothing to do with the traitor. He's been throwing some funny looks though and it feels like more than just rivalry over a girl to me.
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Aug 9, 2015 00:57
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Kylra posted:I don't think that's entirely clear in the anime since discussion of the locked-open feature been more focused in the context of what happens when you get in "improperly". Yeah, the anime cuts some dialogue. Maura explicitly confirms that the temple's saint sealed door has two states once the seal is applied: Sealed and unsealed, or a door you can only open once. She's also the one who says that had she used her key, it would have been locked-open. They seem to be leaving more dialogue on the cutting room floor than I thought they were, but that's just the way it is in the LN, and the anime has no reason to change that fact. You have the right mindset in questioning things, I'm just trying to pass along info that you probably won't get in the anime along the way, once the anime is past the point where the info is given at least.
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Aug 9, 2015 01:08
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Everything Burrito posted:Honestly I don't have much to add. I've been thinking about all of it, so maybe rewatching would help a little. Or he's on the level and has no idea Nashetania's gone rogue, and refuses to countenance the possibility because of his great big crush. On the other hand, his jealousy of Adlet makes it all too easy to assume the worst of him and protect his princess from her (literally) demonic seducer.
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Aug 9, 2015 01:10
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I kinda have a hard time with the Nashetanya remote-sword theory even though I like it, because to activate the seal the person also had to put their hand on the other pedestal and say the magic words. Seems like that part would be hard to do without being in the room with it. Of course that's trusting that the instructions are in fact how to activate it and the guys at that fort weren't all in on it too. Everything Burrito fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 01:22
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This seems far too simple an explanation, but Adlet has his back to the door for some 15 seconds before the fog rolls in. Plenty of time for someone to sneak in ahead, set the barrier, and get ready for an escape opportunity, which does come. Adlet is initially focused on the alters. Although he does look around after confirming the barrier is set, there was an opening for someone to slip from beside the pyramid to the exit path. From the alters, Adlet would have poor line of sight: There's about eight seconds from when he is partially up the stairs with his back to the door before he starts to look around the room. But... about 20 seconds before Nash and company call out from the hallway. An eighth person could have fairly easily done everything right under Adlet's nose if they were slick enough to slip passed Nash/Flamio/Goldov's entrance. But this relies heavily on a single person showing up vice a group, which would either implicate Nash ("You first Adlet!"), or be too convenient. So I'm trying to think of how the aerial strikes factor into this along with the distracting shape shifter and what assumptions I might be taking for granted. This is fun.
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Aug 9, 2015 01:44
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The aerial strikes were just to draw our friends in, I think.
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Aug 9, 2015 01:55
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Just started watching this, finished Episode 4, my speculation knowing nothing is that Princess Bunny-Ears is the fake.
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Aug 9, 2015 03:51
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Everything Burrito posted:Honestly I don't have much to add. I've been thinking about all of it, so maybe rewatching would help a little. Yes, Goldov's behavior this episode suggests to me that he's hiding something, at least, and possibly covering for Nash. He hesitated a fair bit before deciding to go after Adlet, even though he actively disliked him before. That makes me think that he has a reason to think Adlet might not be it.
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Aug 9, 2015 04:31
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Alright, after catching most of the Dota International finals and shivering in jealous rage like Sakurazuka's avatar at the money the top teams are making, I've finally seen the latest episode. So far the theories are exactly as  as I hoped. I'll avoid saying whether anyone is onto something or not for at least a while longer.This was a pretty direct translation of the LN with some sensible differences. In the LN Adlet sticks a sleeping dart in Fremy and then holds his sword to the back of her neck instead of a poison needle. When he's leaving he gets Hans' sword thrown into his back and covers his escape with a smoke bomb. I think a needle to the neck, a smaller dagger to the back and caltrops are all good changes, or at least the harmless rearranging that you typically get with an adaptation. There's another fairly minor change, but it's just an overall good idea to drop it for the anime, and it probably wasn't necessary in the LN either. Please remind me that I said that if I forget to explain it after all the episodes have aired. It looks like the seal was explained in great detail after all in this episode, so I don't know how it could be unclear to anyone who's watching. I feel stupid having insisted that Maura explained it in the LN when she does so in the first 5 minutes or so of this episode. Adlet failing at starting a fire and Fremy lighting one with zero effort was something new added to the anime, and probably a good addition because it's a fun little moment. The LN is pretty light on scenery descriptions and flourishes (it is a light novel after all), they basically just talk to each other non-stop for the bulk of a chapter. There are going to be some awesome fight scenes in the near future, but we have a fair amount of talking to do first. Keep on hanging in there, I promise your patience will be rewarded. But yeah, this was just business as usual. If you have questions about characters or what's going on please feel free to ask, I can just keep it vague or throw it under spoiler tags if needed. Everything Burrito posted:I'm dying to know how this turns out, so it's taking pretty much all my willpower not to go look up some spoilers but I also don't want to ruin the reveal for myself. Really enjoying the show even though it's also frustrating right now. Stay strong Burrito! Darth Walrus posted:Or he's on the level and has no idea Nashetania's gone rogue, and refuses to countenance the possibility because of his great big crush. On the other hand, his jealousy of Adlet makes it all too easy to assume the worst of him and protect his princess from her (literally) demonic seducer. Well, going back to my original theory of Demon-possessed Adlet, he did just kidnap a woman to escape. That seems pretty evil. Edit: Also, I thought I'd point out that Adlet ran off without his big old case of fancy tricks, so he's just making do with what he typically carries around with him (less two flash grenades,a sleep dart, and a LOT of caltrops). NowonSA fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 04:48
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