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biznatchio
Mar 31, 2001


Buglord

jokes posted:

Microsoft knows that you went to https://www.somethingawful.com by way of telemetry purposes. Should we assume they aren't going to attempt to make money off of that data by building it into your profile?

If you enabled the option to allow them to do so, then yes, they'll do exactly that. If you disabled the option, then no, they won't. It's not like they try to hide that setting, either, because they present it to you during setup.

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jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?

Doesn’t windows also just re-enable opt-out privacy settings you disable when it updates?

I’m surprised to see so much trust by y’all in the honor, or whatever, of Microsoft. They gently caress up a lot lot.

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

It's more about putting trust in them being worried enough about, like, the EU fining them 4% of their turnover, that they comply with laws

Even if they did do a whoopsie doodle they have obligations as a data controller to remove any data they collected that they shouldn't have. Whether or not there's an actual smackdown, the threat is there and MS has been burned before

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast

jokes posted:

Doesn’t windows also just re-enable opt-out privacy settings you disable when it updates?

I’m surprised to see so much trust by y’all in the honor, or whatever, of Microsoft. They gently caress up a lot lot.

Yeah, I have no idea what compels people to defend Microsoft

Mr Shiny Pants
Nov 12, 2012

HalloKitty posted:

Yeah, I have no idea what compels people to defend Microsoft

You should see the Apple guys. :)

Faceless corporations are soccer teams for geeks.

biznatchio
Mar 31, 2001


Buglord

HalloKitty posted:

Yeah, I have no idea what compels people to defend Microsoft

Not buying into baseless fear and superstition, mainly.

For example:


jokes posted:

Doesn’t windows also just re-enable opt-out privacy settings you disable when it updates?

Nope.

Fame Douglas
Nov 20, 2013

by Fluffdaddy
The first few versions of Windows 10 absolutely used to reset some settings, but that hasn't been true for quite some time (with the exception of some driver-related things that can still reset).

Mr Shiny Pants
Nov 12, 2012

biznatchio posted:

Not buying into baseless fear and superstition, mainly.

For example:


Nope.

This has happened twice now, once from 17 something to 18 and from 18 to19 something. It did happen.

Papa Was A Video Toaster
Jan 9, 2011





I want to quickly swap my two displays' active windows with one hotkey. I know about Windows+Shift+Left, but I'd like to switch from a screenshare being on my secondary and my work on the main to vice versa. Nvidia 1650 if that matters.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?

biznatchio posted:

Not buying into baseless fear and superstition, mainly.

For example:


Nope.

Baseless superstition of this happening last year and the year before that.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week
I have not had win10 change the privacy or telemetry settings (I use basic telemetry + all other options set to off / private) in any update.

However I've had it reset various other system settings during updates, so I can easily believe that some people have had privacy options reset. I don't believe this is a thing MS is intentionally doing to be spyware, I think this is them being incompetent.


If you really really care about this stuff to the level of trying to block even the basic telemetry and every other piece of data to MS, use linux.



TVsVeryOwn posted:

I want to quickly swap my two displays' active windows with one hotkey. I know about Windows+Shift+Left, but I'd like to switch from a screenshare being on my secondary and my work on the main to vice versa. Nvidia 1650 if that matters.

here's an autohokey script for a one button flip-flop:
code:
XButton2::
  SendMessage, 0x08 , 0, 0, , WinTitle, A, , , 200  ;0x08 WM_KILLFOCUS = tell active window to release key focus
                                                    ; prevents flashing taskbar (mostly)
  if (vdeskflip)
  {
    send ^#{Left}
    vdeskflip := false
  }
  else
  {
    send ^#{Right}
    vdeskflip := true
  }
Return
Xbutton2 is mouse forward, but that first line could also be like !`:: for alt-tilde or something else.

biznatchio
Mar 31, 2001


Buglord
Windows 10 only resets settings when you go in and tinker with internals and put the system into an unsupported state. So if you run Super Don't Spy On Me EXTREME64.exe and it goes in and disables some services it doesn't like and writes some undocumented registry settings, then don't be surprised when the update installer sees the system in an unrecognized state and runs the script to reinstall a feature from scratch (because, you know, it's kinda the job of an update installer to make sure the system is in a working state when its done; not whatever pidgin half-broken state you left it in). Also, if this happens, the installer will recognize that -- while fixing your stupidity -- it's touched things that could impact a privacy setting and will re-prompt you to configure any potentially affected settings in the post-install dialog.

If you turn off telemetry the way you're supposed to: from the Settings app, and don't go digging to look for ways to mess with things you're not supposed to be; then the setting is retained through upgrades.

Though if your only source of news on the issue is "tech journalism" headlines then you can probably be forgiven for thinking Windows 10 is resetting your settings secretly every 25 minutes, because those idiots are out for clicks and tend to leave out details like the above.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?

Oh I hadn’t realized that that it turns out Windows is the privacy conscious OS, and Windows’s settings app is both comprehensive and consistent.

Regarding browsing history I just checked the privacy dashboard via my phone and, uhh.



I don’t know if they distinguish between “telemetry” and browsing history. I’d probably not lean towards “they care about privacy” and lean more towards the “they’re assuming we’re consenting by using Windows poo poo”.

This is stupid, who is really defending Microsoft’s privacy practices?

jokes fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Aug 9, 2020

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004

Bing up you're rear end in a top hat

biznatchio
Mar 31, 2001


Buglord

jokes posted:



I don’t know if they distinguish between “telemetry” and browsing history. I’d probably not lean towards “they care about privacy” and lean more towards the “they’re assuming we’re consenting by using Windows poo poo”.

That's covered under the same setting previously discussed, which you'd know if you actually clicked the link they provided that explained how it works.

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle. I bet you feel foolish for continually assuming the opposite of reality.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012

Uh... Kupo?

Well I’m sold. The button on the website is not green and now Microsoft has been permanently confounded. They won’t be making a cent off of my data anymore!

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?
is that an official ms message? wtf is up with the spacing?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

jokes posted:

Regarding browsing history I just checked the privacy dashboard via my phone and, uhh.



I don’t know if they distinguish between “telemetry” and browsing history.

That's not Windows OS telemetry, that's having a MS Account that syncs things across devices (and stores browsing history / bookmarks / personalization / etc in ~the cloud~ where MS can look at it).


If you use a MS Account you consent to a whole lot more data collection poo poo than is in the base OS. They're different, but MS is eroding the difference all the time by pushing people into MS accounts whether they want them or not. But conflating them is incorrect.

CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013



I gotta say that seeing people rush to defend the honor of Microsoft is just kinda weird.

I'll admit to having gotten a little lazy about restricting access to my data compared to how locked-down I used to be but I still exercise a lot more control over it than the average user, and I find it annoying that Microsoft ended up having multiple avenues of data gathering and making them less than easy to access (on top of going with an opt-out model instead of opt-in).

beuges
Jul 4, 2005
fluffy bunny butterfly broomstick

CaptainSarcastic posted:

I gotta say that seeing people rush to defend the honor of Microsoft is just kinda weird.

I'll admit to having gotten a little lazy about restricting access to my data compared to how locked-down I used to be but I still exercise a lot more control over it than the average user, and I find it annoying that Microsoft ended up having multiple avenues of data gathering and making them less than easy to access (on top of going with an opt-out model instead of opt-in).

It’s not at all “rushing to defend the honor of Microsoft” or anything similar. I started this whole derail by asking a simple question, what in Windows 10 makes it spyware? There are many things it does that you may not like, but that does not equate to Windows 10 being spyware. So far there’s lots of frothing about how everyone doesn’t like telemetry, but nobody has explained how telemetry = spyware.

If the right terms were used for the right things, this discussion wouldn’t even be happening.

Fruits of the sea
Dec 1, 2010

If I get it right, your take on it is that since MS' data collection is legal and documented in the TOS and EULA and there are opt-out options then it isn't by definition spyware.

Speaking practically, the settings and opt-outs for personal information and telemetry are opaque to the average user and the license agreements are unreadable for anyone who isn't a lawyer with a lot of spare time. It is extremely difficult to even get a grasp on what data is being gathered. So effectively it behaves like spyware, an unknown quantity of data is harvested without the user's knowledge. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...

Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Aug 10, 2020

mystes
May 31, 2006

Fruits of the sea posted:

If I get it right, your take on it is that since MS' data collection is legal and documented in the TOS and EULA and there are opt-out options then it isn't by definition spyware.

Speaking practically, the settings and opt-outs for personal information and telemetry are opaque to the average user and the license agreements are unreadable for anyone who isn't a lawyer with a lot of spare time. It is extremely difficult to even get a grasp on what data is being gathered. So effectively it behaves like spyware, an unknown quantity of data is harvested without the user's knowledge. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...
Do you feel the same way about Android?

Fruits of the sea
Dec 1, 2010

I haven’t used Android in a long time but I don’t expect it’s much better. Hard to make a blanket statement since there’s so many different forks.

beuges
Jul 4, 2005
fluffy bunny butterfly broomstick

Fruits of the sea posted:

If I get it right, your take on it is that since MS' data collection is legal and documented in the TOS and EULA and there are opt-out options then it isn't by definition spyware.

Speaking practically, the settings and opt-outs for personal information and telemetry are opaque to the average user and the license agreements are unreadable for anyone who isn't a lawyer with a lot of spare time. It is extremely difficult to even get a grasp on what data is being gathered. So effectively it behaves like spyware, an unknown quantity of data is harvested without the user's knowledge. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...

Let me put it another way. Let's say we all agree Orange Man Bad. Then someone comes in and talks about how Orange Man is a daughter-fucker. Just because some of us ask for proof of said daughter-fuckery doesn't mean that we're now suddenly all MAGA hat wearing wall builders. There's enough evidence to be comfortable in the Orange Man Bad team, without having to invent additional badness which then puts all your prior reasons for saying Orange Man Bad into question.

Similarly, there are enough reasons to dislike Windows 10 (or even Microsoft) without making unjustified Spyware accusations. If you claim it's spyware, be prepared to back it up with proof, or you create irrational FUD which causes more harm than good. These accusations of spyware cause people in this very thread to go about disabling settings they should not be disabling, or applying registry "tweaks" which end up making their systems unstable, and then they go off about how crap Windows is because their "tweaks" resulted in a messed up state.

We've already seen the same thing happen with UAC for years now. People go off and disable it because everyone says so, and then they get owned and post on Slashdot about how insecure Windows is. Creating this sort of misinformation doesn't help, and actively harms, because it causes users to change settings that they don't understand, and even now, there are people who proudly proclaim that the first thing they do on a fresh install is disable UAC. They're also the types of people who frequently have to perform fresh installs, because their systems don't work right. Today, searching for "windows uac" on bing, the second result is an article titled "How to turn off and disable UAC in Windows 10" from tyool 2014. 6 years of misinformation and counting.

Finally, I wouldn't at all be surprised if the majority of the same people who go on about this so-called spyware in Windows are running Android phones, using all of the Google suite of web-based applications, storing all their files in Google Drive, and happily giving up 10 times the telemetry that Windows is collecting, only Google doesn't even have to disclose it because it's all running on the web and their servers are doing all the tracking. These people just help it along by loudly proclaiming that Edge is poo poo and Chrome is awesome (even though they're effectively the same thing now), logging into Chrome with their Gmail account so that all their info is tracked across all their devices by Google. But here it's "syncing" and not "telemetry".

Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

Fruits of the sea posted:

If I get it right, your take on it is that since MS' data collection is legal and documented in the TOS and EULA and there are opt-out options then it isn't by definition spyware.

Speaking practically, the settings and opt-outs for personal information and telemetry are opaque to the average user and the license agreements are unreadable for anyone who isn't a lawyer with a lot of spare time. It is extremely difficult to even get a grasp on what data is being gathered. So effectively it behaves like spyware, an unknown quantity of data is harvested without the user's knowledge. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...

It's only an unknown if you don't bother to read the place where they document what data they collect. Or that they have an app that allows you to look at all the diagnostic reports. It's unknown if your only source of info is other people on a forum repeating "MS spies on you!"

Believe me, Apple is also collecting this type of basic system data about the health and reliability of the OS. It's a powerful tool for knowing how your software is working in practice.

Apple privacy policy posted:

We may collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, referrer URL, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used so that we can better understand customer behavior and improve our products, services, and advertising.

We may also use personal information for internal purposes such as auditing, data analysis, and research to improve Apple’s products, services, and customer communications.

With your explicit consent, we may collect data about how you use your device and applications in order to help app developers improve their apps.

That third thing is likely on the same level as Win10's enhanced telemetry, and the big difference is that it is opt-in for Apple and opt-out for MS.


CaptainSarcastic posted:

I gotta say that seeing people rush to defend the honor of Microsoft is just kinda weird.

I'd have no problem joining everyone in bashing MS on a whole range of bad behavior and lovely performance, as long as the info was accurate. This is not the case. I've got some big problems with the medical industry in the US but if I see an anti-vaxxer I'm gonna tell them to gently caress off.


If you want a good & accurate reason to have telemetry set to basic or off, the fact that it fucks up performance in some games for inexplicable reasons is a good one.

Fruits of the sea
Dec 1, 2010

beuges posted:

Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

All fair points. Folks trying to remove "bloatware" and turn off UAC or hate on some arbitrary brand frequently do more harm than good.

Klyith posted:

It's only an unknown if you don't bother to read the place where they document what data they collect. Or that they have an app that allows you to look at all the diagnostic reports. It's unknown if your only source of info is other people on a forum repeating "MS spies on you!"

Believe me, Apple is also collecting this type of basic system data about the health and reliability of the OS. It's a powerful tool for knowing how your software is working in practice.

Yeah Apple has its own set of problems.

The average Joe or Jill isn't going to navigate to MS's info about diagnostic data unfortunately.

Fundamentally, I think the industry standard is too intrusive and deeply flawed in how it educates users. Yes, labelling OS' as spyware can lead to harmful behaviour, but that is how they operate in practice. I would like to see GDPR get some more teeth (and in an ideal world, have the rules make more sense, because its clear most legislators don't understand what it is they are dealing with). Windows telemetry is just an easy example. This is probably a discussion for another thread though.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002

by Fluffdaddy
So im starting to see a pattern with Win 10 upgrades/updates. The bigger entire OS version updates when applied to a stock Dell/HP completely fails leading to an unbootable system. The reason for this is they are breaking the HD into 5-6 partitions and then Windows updates completely fail with an unbootable system.. and it requires a reinstall AND wiping all the non-standard partition arrangement.

Wonderful.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!
A German tech site claims that Windows Defender is now considering blocking Microsoft's telemetry servers via the HOSTS file a severe threat and prevents you from saving it. So if you're on the more privacy minded side, they're loving with you. Nothing a Pi Hole (or whatever) can solve, but I half expect them to bypass the default DNS now, too.

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004

Combat Pretzel posted:

I half expect them to bypass the default DNS now, too.

If they did that, I'd actually consider that a threat.

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010



Fruits of the sea posted:

All fair points. Folks trying to remove "bloatware" and turn off UAC or hate on some arbitrary brand frequently do more harm than good.

While I agree with this, I really do, I also can not stand that Microsoft recently decided to install Skype on my computer without my consent.
Easy enough to uninstall through the normal settings dialog instead of weird powershell commands, but it just goes to show they don't give a poo poo about what their users may or may not want if it might potentially earn them money.

So, uninstalling things that you don't want, like the Office installer stub thing or links to candy crush saga and minecraft is a pretty normal thing. It's when you start uninstalling system services that you're maybe going a bit too far.

Fruits of the sea
Dec 1, 2010

MS already got their hand slapped once for anti-competitive practices. It didn’t do much, but it’s about time they got another anti-trust suit for sneaking edge and Skype into updates :getin:

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004

Fruits of the sea posted:

MS already got their hand slapped once for anti-competitive practices. It didn’t do much, but it’s about time they got another anti-trust suit for sneaking edge and Skype into updates :getin:

Lol yeah, big tech companies are going to be regulated . this isdefinitely a thing that's going to happen for sure

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

I dunno if I'd say they sneaked Edge into an update, when I got back to my computer Edge was open full screen and it said WE'VE UPDATED TO BRING YOU EDGE

mystes
May 31, 2006

baka kaba posted:

I dunno if I'd say they sneaked Edge into an update, when I got back to my computer Edge was open full screen and it said WE'VE UPDATED TO BRING YOU EDGE
I think the "sneak" part is about whether people realized it would be part of the update in advance, not about whether Microsoft continued to conceal the presence of Edge after the update, because obviously they have definitely not done the latter.

Doctor_Fruitbat
Jun 2, 2013


Skype I can understand, but the idea that Windows (or any OS really) shouldn't have a built-in internet browser as a standard system feature is absolutely insane. Like what are you going to do if Chrome stops working after an update?

astral
Apr 26, 2004

Doctor_Fruitbat posted:

Skype I can understand, but the idea that Windows (or any OS really) shouldn't have a built-in internet browser as a standard system feature is absolutely insane. Like what are you going to do if Chrome stops working after an update?

You reinstall Netscape Navigator from the CD.

Captain Yossarian
Feb 24, 2011

All new" Rings of Fire"

redeyes posted:

So im starting to see a pattern with Win 10 upgrades/updates. The bigger entire OS version updates when applied to a stock Dell/HP completely fails leading to an unbootable system. The reason for this is they are breaking the HD into 5-6 partitions and then Windows updates completely fail with an unbootable system.. and it requires a reinstall AND wiping all the non-standard partition arrangement.

Wonderful.

Even better? I have like five repurposed dell optiplexs that are now all on the most up to date version and they are all fine lol

Fame Douglas
Nov 20, 2013

by Fluffdaddy

Doctor_Fruitbat posted:

Skype I can understand, but the idea that Windows (or any OS really) shouldn't have a built-in internet browser as a standard system feature is absolutely insane. Like what are you going to do if Chrome stops working after an update?

People were annoyed at Windows forcing them to go through the Edge setup tutorial after the browser was updated automatically through Windows Update. And all the "but Microsoft prefers Edge!" nag screens when changing defaults.

biznatchio
Mar 31, 2001


Buglord

Fame Douglas posted:

People were annoyed at Windows forcing them to go through the Edge setup tutorial after the browser was updated automatically through Windows Update. And all the "but Microsoft prefers Edge!" nag screens when changing defaults.

See, there are plenty of reasons to give Microsoft poo poo without having to choose "what I think their data collection practices are (that aren't actually true)" as the hill you choose to fight on. At least have the integrity to choose actual reasons to be upset about and not made up ones.


"hurr durr imagine defending Microsoft".... not defending Microsoft. Defending reality.

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CaptainSarcastic
Jul 6, 2013



biznatchio posted:

See, there are plenty of reasons to give Microsoft poo poo without having to choose "what I think their data collection practices are (that aren't actually true)" as the hill you choose to fight on. At least have the integrity to choose actual reasons to be upset about and not made up ones.


"hurr durr imagine defending Microsoft".... not defending Microsoft. Defending reality.

This derail is getting dumb, but that accusation is also dumb.

CaptainSarcastic posted:

I gotta say that seeing people rush to defend the honor of Microsoft is just kinda weird.

I'll admit to having gotten a little lazy about restricting access to my data compared to how locked-down I used to be but I still exercise a lot more control over it than the average user, and I find it annoying that Microsoft ended up having multiple avenues of data gathering and making them less than easy to access (on top of going with an opt-out model instead of opt-in).

Is the part I bolded not part of your reality? Do you think it is unreasonable to not be happy about having multiple systems in the OS calling home by default unless you track them down and turn them off individually?

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