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Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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Alright, I've been looking for an excuse to re-watch the show. This should be fun!

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Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



PotU posted:

are yall really gonna watch endless eight


It's not really Haruhi without Endless Eight.

Hell, I remember the S2 thread getting really... interesting, back when it was first being broadcast.

Speaking of things from 6 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiSg02Ll20s

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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Zas posted:

Something to keep in mind for all 'serious haruhi watchers' (lol) - just who is the author? Most important works of film/tv postmodernism, from Hitchcock to Evangelion (again lol, but seriously) fit the auteur theory in some way or another, but Haruhi is unusual in that it's a stylistically coherent work of the strongest order without any single dominant voice behind it, to my knowledge.

In other words


Keep this issue in mind, because it's constantly reflected in the plot.

Strangely enough, or perhaps completely intentionally, authorship is a significant plot element in the last episode of The Disappearance of Nagato Yuki as well...

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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CrazySalamander posted:

I actually enjoyed The Disappearance of Yuki Nagato better than Haruhi, because it had less Haruhi, who I always found annoying. I watched Haruhi for the characters that weren't her. She was grating and annoying but the other characters made it worth it.

Boy... I liked Disappearance of YN alright, but, this sure is an opinion here, yes it is...

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



I'm not going to say that Disappearance of Nagato Yuki is better than Melancholy, because it isn't, but I watched all of it and enjoyed myself for the most part. It's a very different beast, but if you liked quiet romantic comedies, or if you liked the set up in the Disappearance movie and wished that they'd done more with it, you might enjoy it.

The ending of DNY, though, I think tops the whole franchise off nicely, even better than the Disappearance movie did. I'm not quite sure how they managed it, but I think it works perfectly: The final episode runs through what the club does on their summer break, hitting many of the major incidents in endless eight and other episodes from the initial run, but played off in a joking manner because no one has any supernatural powers. You watch thinking 'Ha, what a nice series of inside jokes for fans of both series. while seeing the romantic plot inch forward a bit more. At the end of the episode, as Kyon, Yuki, and Ryoko walk back to school in their uniforms to start the first day of classes, they have a conversation about why the literary club never writes anything, and Kyon suggests they write a collaborative novel. They joke about the kind of novel Haruhi would write, featuring aliens and time travelers and ESPers. Yuki says that sounds interesting, and that she'd like to write a novel. The conversation moves on, and Yuki begins to narrate to herself, leaving us questioning whether the Melancholy world is simply a novel she eventually writes in the Disappearance world, or whether this world is just an alternate reality created and left behind by Yuki in the Disappearance film. A cute, clever ending, but not quite enough.

In the post credits sequence, Kyon is watching baseball with his sister, just like at the beginning of endless eight and the beginning of this episode. He gets a phone call from Haruhi, and goes to meet everyone at the cafe. A look of horror washes over his face as Ryoko asks him if he finished his summer homework. Cut to a Edvard Munch-looking statue advertising ice. End show.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



"Sayonora, Haruhi!"

Ha!

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Oddly enough, Disappearance and Endless Eight are around the same length. (D: 164 min, EE: 176 min)

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Folks keep (rightly) bringing up Nietzsche and Schopenhauer, but honestly I always think Søren Kierkegaard, esp. the bits in Fear and Trembling where he tries to reconcile keeping God happy vs doing what he "knows" is right. Should one become actually a Knight of Infinite Resignation? Would it be a good thing for the world were Kyon to act more like Koizumi? Is Haruhi a twisted version of the Knight of Faith, able to bring about her desires without needing God?

P. deep thoughts to think about as we keep watching.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



TheKingofSprings posted:

Anyone know of any cool instrumental versions or remixes of the OP?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fARXHNDY8Xg

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Command Ant posted:

What I love about this picture is that it's the equivalent of putting a modern-day person in front of a Gutenberg printing press and seeing how they'd react to it.

You joke, but I deal with folks everyday who do this very thing, or try to point the mouse at the computer screen like its a TV remote.

TheKingofSprings posted:

cut from the anime but left in the light novels was a scene after the concert where Haruhi proceeds to bang all the band members except the bassist

and subsequently gets fired from her agency as a result. If you thought America was bad about the way it treats women...

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Zas posted:

still pisses me off, aya hirano is the homo superior, let her have sex, jeez

Yeah, for serious. "Oh no! A woman I will never meet in person let alone have a relationship with was spotted standing next to a man she spends a lot of time with! The whore! Let me publicly burn all this merchandise I spent thousands and thousands of dollars on because of reasons! My anger is somehow justified!!"

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Srice posted:

Was there ever any definitive story about her getting fired, since she still gets regular voice roles so it kinda seems like one of those stories that people like to rage over (obviously there were a bunch of people online that got mad about her but w/e)

It seemed to me like the reason she voiced fewer characters for awhile was because she was busy with that band.

Going off of hearsay, Twitter, and internet postings:

-She has a benign pituitary gland tumor that was apparently messing with her pretty bad. She didn't want to have surgery to remove it, because it could permanently gently caress up her voice, so she opted to stop VAing for a while. She announces the tumor in November 2010, is forbidden by her doctor from taking on any new roles in April 2011.

-Big to do over the sex thing, as well as other "unlady like" behavior. There was a photo shoot where she "accidentally" wore the halves of a bikini wrong (top on bottom, vice versa), and people roared. She wore what people took to be an engagement ring for a while, and people screamed. A whole bunch of things. You aren't supposed to gently caress with your fans/the media like that, she did went out of her way to mess with their heads. This is throughout 2008-2010, when she's really in the media's eye.

-She gets fired from Lantis, her music agency, in May 2011. She doesn't say it, but the idea is that it's because of the tumor and she's wanting to go in a new direction, isn't working as a singer right now, etc etc. The sex thing comes out publicly as the actual reason in a gossip magazine in August 2011, and otaku burn with rage, even more so than they did when she was just messing with their heads.

-Wanting a voice acting agency that's better suited to her wants and needs, she leaves Space Craft in August 2011, and is almost immediately picked up by Grick (about 2 weeks later). She resumes voice acting like it's no thing.

Celebrity gossip is that she really wants to break into TV, where the real money and fame are, but that market is competitive as hell. She also put out a few singles in 2013.

One theory is that the tumor is a complete lie, cooked up to give her a convenient way out of the spotlight until the heat died down, but there's literally no way to confirm that, and anyways, since the Japanese gossip rags found out anyways, it didn't work.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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And yet later on, chronologically, she wants to get everyone together and win a local baseball tourney...

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Spiritus Nox posted:

So, is the Disappearance of Yuki Nagato any good? I just stumbled across some stuff talking about it, and I might be down for a Yuki-centric show if it's not all Rei-clone fanservice.

It's not nearly of the quality of Melancholy, it's a cute, quiet, slice of life romantic comedy that happens to feature the characters from Melancholy.

If you wanted more hanging out in the club room bits, with more romantic "when will they talk to one another about their feeling?" moments, and nothing supernatural whatsoever, then you'll enjoy it. If you want more Melancholy in the style of Melancholy, you'll hate it.

I liked it overall, but it's far from the best show I've ever seen. It's not a waste of time or anything, but don't expect it to be something other than what it is. You'll know by the first episode or so if you want to keep going.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



TheKingofSprings posted:

It's bad because it wants Kyon to end up with Yuki

It's understandable. He never sees Haruhi with a ponytail.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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Linnaeus posted:

Hell yes he does

I think we're having a confusion here because we're talking about the 2015 Disappearance of Nagato Yuki, not the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

It's brief, but she and Koizumi do the gym clothes thing in episode 3, so Kyon does get a short amount of ponytail Haruhi. Mea culpa!

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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Zas posted:

the budget/making room for 'disappearance' explanation is believable for sure but I'd be really curious to know if that was the case. it wouldn't surprise me if it was just the decionmakers being ballsy and following their convictions after an enormous success. it's happened before and god willing it will happen again.

The budget angle doesn't strike me as the case simply because E8 is just as well animated as the rest of the show. Evangelion 25/26, for example, are a lot of static shots, stick figures, storyboard animations, flashbacks, etc. because those don't cost much and they were flat broke, but Endless Eight showed no drop in quality versus the rest of the series, much of the bafflement of its detractors.

It's not as nice looking as Disappearance (2010) is, but then almost nothing is.

Making room, on the other hand, well... they are about the same length...

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



When are we doing Lucky Star in the schedule?

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Konata watching Haruhi and complaining about it on 2chan is about 20 seconds in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU8Cb4_TPME

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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Radio Spiricom posted:

you should read the book the anime machine


Well I know what I'm ordering as soon as we're done here. It's been a few years since I watched this all (watch number 3 for me, once as it came out, once shotgunning the whole thing with a friend), and man... It really it a thing to behold.

Also, go ahead and post those essays. I'm interested in reading long form stuff about film theory, TV, etc.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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Yes!

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Zas posted:

it's like a ghost town in here compared to 9/11. oh well I'm sure the numbers will be up for disappearance.

I'd be watching, but I'm at work right now

Ah well, later this evening perhaps

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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Koizumi : Kyon :: Haruhi : Mikuru

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Spiritus Nox posted:

I assume the on-location filming was just as reference material for the artists?

If you want a taste of how much work went into making the series look real, and how scary obsessive Haruhi fans are...

http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Stalking_Haruhi_Suzumiya

edit: even more shots from the series from around Nishinomiya

http://www.cuso4.org/photos/2006092...-kix-haruhi.htm

Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Sep 17, 2015

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



Disappearance is a great, great movie, but is also functions as a natural end for Kyon as a character, and thus the series itself.

Consider: He spends most of the first season complaining about Haruhi. Yes, he goes along with the quasi-abusive relationship because he has to, but because it's for the greater good, he can convince himself that it's worth it, and by the time Live Alive rolls around, both he and Haruhi have grown and developed as characters to the point where, for example, Haruhi's actions in the supposedly post-Live Alive The Day of Sagittarius ring false, because we've seen her not focus entire on herself, not be a complete dick to everyone around her, actual work to accomplish something and be acknowledged for her own merits, etc. (note that Haruhi is barely in Disappearance)

Thus, Season 2 can get away with something like Endless Eight. From an art perspective, it is an undoubted triumph, and easily one of the best things I think has ever been done in anime. But plotwise? The only character it advances is Yuki, and even then, only slightly. Kyon learns nothing in the end as he doesn't remember any of the other loops, Haruhi doesn't change at all, Mikuru spends it freaked out, and Koizumi accepts his fate with resignation. And this is fine, from one perspective, because E8 had a clear storytelling goal in mind and accomplished it in spades -- as noted earlier in thread, exposing much of high school anime for the cliche ridden repetition that is. But there's a reason why shows fall into tropes and cliches: writing is quite difficult when you need new material every week. Would we want the show to become much like that other stale genre, the monster of the week? the SOS have to stop whatever new scheme Haruhi has cooked up without her realizing it? Watch the show in chronological order, and you'll see how uninteresting that becomes.

Which is the direction the novels seemed to go when I stopped reading them. When I left off we had just met Kyon's friend from middle school (the "Kyon likes weird girls" girl), who just happens to have the exact same powers as Haruhi. She too is followed by an Esper, a time traveler, and an alien, and the whole thing was just not that good. So many alternate universes, parallel worlds, divergent timelines...

So when KyoAni did DIsappearance, which ends on Kyon definitively choosing the SOS over everything, going out of his way and going through extreme pain and trauma to get back to that particular universe, all of his protestations and complains would ring false. He wanted this. He chose this. He was willing to kill an innocent, powerless schoolgirl with no memory of anything strange or supernatural to get back to this, and even though he got stabbed in the kidneys for it, he was going to do it... He wants to be here. Perfect note to end the series on.

But also a characterization that would need to be walked back for season 3, so he could have the same revelation at the climax, just as he did at the end of Season 1 and the film.

And that's why I can't hate Disappearance of Nagato Yuki too much. No, it's not the same series at all. It's not even in the same ball park. It's not trying to be. That's comparing something like Kill Bill with Agents of SHIELD. And so I can't fault it for not being something it was never going to be, and wasn't trying for. It doesn't diminish The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya by existing. It simply takes what seems like a viable storytelling option -- the characters from the alternate universe -- and tries to tell stories with them. It does so, giving Minori Chihara a chance to stretch her acting ability a bit more. It avoids the structural "problems" of the earlier series because it sets up a clear dynamic -- the slow, incremental advancement of a relationship -- that can be sustained almost indefinitely, and you know going in that the ride is the point, not the never coming resolution. How many times can we ask ourselves why doesn't Kyon just quit or how come Haruhi hasn't realized (it's not a comedy where Rumiko Takahashi style stupid characters would be totally acceptable, and we laugh off another failed attempt by Ryoga to use a map, for example) vs. how many times will we wonder if this is the time they'll finally tell one another about their feelings? The latter is not better storytelling, and again, I will wholeheartedly agree that Haruhi is the superior series, but it's also a series that needs to be limited in order to be good. Without the climax of episode 6/14, or the film, would the series feel as satisfying? I wrote earlier about how I liked the ending of Disappearance of Nagato Yuki, and I'll stand by that, even if the rest of the series was mostly fun and forgettable fluff, but the series could keep going from there pretty much indefinitely, the way series like Tenchi Muyo or Ah! My Goddess have. It won't, but it could, and therein lies the difference between the two styles of storytelling. The Kill Bill comparison earlier was quite deliberate: one doesn't need a Kill Bill vol. 3 (hell, how could you make one?), but one could enjoy a Deadly Viper Assassination Squad show, even if it didn't enhance the film even a tiny bit.

Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Sep 19, 2015

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



This is kind of a sideways recommendation, but if you liked Haruhi, you'll probably like Patrick McGoohan's The Prisoner.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

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Just seeing this



and this



next to one another through sheer coincidence of posting really does a wonderful job of showing how much difference lighting, color, and texture do for a scene. Same grubby classroom, but the angle, the colors of the characters, their body language... You might not even think they were from the same movie if you didn't know better.

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Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008

You can't see me at all...



StandardVC10 posted:

This is from a few pages ago but was that needle actually going to kill altYuki? Because I wasn't getting that at all.

Well, wipe her from existence alongside the entire alternate timeline... It's a philosophical debate that people have been having for quite some time, but I'd come down on the side of "intentionally wiping someone's memory and personality to replace them with someone else" is basically killing them. It's literally Kyon drawing a gun on her and about the pull the trigger. Even if there's sci fi shenanigans about how the real Yuki is still alive, the trembling girl who can barely take the application paper back from him is gone for good. Just check out the dialog from before Asakura interrupts:

quote:

Kyon:
I guess that's it.
The other way's definitely better.
Having the world like this just doesn't feel right. I'm sorry, Nagato.
But I like the "you" you used to be more than the "you" you are now.
You look better without glasses anyway.

Yuki:
I don't know what you are saying.

Kyon:
Nagato.
You have to change yourself back, change everything back to the way it was.
I can help.
All you have to do is ask.
You didn't have to use all that amazing power you have to change the world like this.
I liked things better the way they were.

Adult Mikuru:
Kyon, it doesn't matter what you say.
This version of Miss Nagato doesn't have any power.
Look at her.
She is a normal girl.

Kyon:
Sorry.

That's cold, man. Cold.

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