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M. Discordia posted:I think it's more than that (though this is certainly part of it) and would like Chuck Boone to comment on the following aspects of what seems to be the situation: I think that the crime-government nexus is a really interesting topic and I'll say a couple of things about it. First, I think it's really important to make one point clear right away. I think that as Labradoole pointed out, "crime doesn't care about politics". In other words, I don't believe that Diosdado Cabello is sitting in a big room full of television screens personally directing the activities of gangs around the country. However, I do think that the government does turn a blind eye whenever it finds criminal violence advantageous to its interests. There is plenty of very solid evidence found in the Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports I linked in the OP, for example, of armed groups acting violently against protesters during the demonstrations last year, sometimes within sight of authorities who were obviously willing to let the violence take place unhindered. Amnesty International called these groups "pro-government armed groups", but they're known locally as "colectivos armados" or "tupamaros". Again, I'm not sure that the government is directly controlling these groups, but I do believe that they are allowed to operate as long as they're serving some kind of government interest. It might be that one of those interests is, as you say, keeping people afraid, but that's speculation. Another excellent example of the government turning a blind eye to criminal groups is the existence of the "zonas de paz". These are areas that are explicitly marked as no-go zones for police authorities. The theory behind the zones is that by avoiding violent confrontation between police forces and gangs, and allowing individual communities to in effect police themselves, people might willingly turn away from crime. The government has - at least on paper - offered scholarships and certificates for things to people who turn in weapons inside a zona de paz. In practice, what has happened is that the zones have largely become safe-havens for criminals and criminal groups who know that they can operate more or less with impunity in these areas. Ocumare del Tuy and the Cota 905 are famous zonas de paz. It is impossible for the government to not be aware that crime occurs in these areas, and yet they continue to exist. Second, the case of Jose Odreman. Odreman was the head of the Frente 5 de Marzo colectivo. On October 7 of last year, a raid on a colectivo building in Quinta Crespo, Caracas saw Odreman killed by the police along with three other colectivo members. Tensions between the government and the colectivos were high in the aftermath of the raid, because it appeared as if the sanctity of the crime-government nexus had been violated in a novel way. Maduro ended up calling for an investigation into the raid, and three weeks later unexpectedly removed Miguel Rodriguez Torres from his post as Minister of the Interior, Justice and Peace (the Ministry responsible for the police). I don't have the source with me right now, but I know that several members of the police agency in charge of the raid (I believe it was the CICPC) were also removed from their posts after the raid. The moves appeared to be the government's way of making amends for the raid. In conclusion, I think that the government is certainly interested in the right kinds of violence happening, and it is hesitant to act out against groups that have traditionally supported them in the past, as is the case with the colectivos armados and their community organization branches. hypnorotic posted:If oil stays at a low price for 2-3 years is it generally assumed the government will collapse? Other oil reliant nations (Russia/Saudis/GCC) either have significant reserves or other economic sectors which are somewhat viable, but Venezuela has neither afaik. It's hard to say. It is true that the situation in the country has deteriorated dramatically over the pat year as oil prices have plummeted. I often ask myself, "When will the country finally collapse?", but I'm afraid to say that maybe it's been "collapsed" for a while now. Vlex posted:When I return to London I will try to make an effortpost about my experiences in the sticks of Venezuela - news and discussion tends to get rather Caracas-centric (Táchira notwithstanding) Awesome! Looking forward to it. Thanks!
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Aug 27, 2015 00:18
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Unfortunately, when whole swaths of territory are essentially outside of government control ("peace zones" in Venezuela, farc territory in Colombia, several states in Mexico, ect) I think the term "failed state" is in vogue for this arrangement. Collapsed would be another way of saying it.
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Aug 27, 2015 02:44
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This E/N thread is kind of interesting from a "boots on the ground" perspective, and yet... http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3718525
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Aug 27, 2015 03:10
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Ah the trusty "They're guerilla collaborators!" canard that Colombia uses whenever somebody dares to criticize it's human rights abuses, or anybody they deem "subversive". Of course you also made the ridiculous claim that right-wing paramilitaries don't exist anymore so its fascinating to come across someone who genuine believes in the transparent propaganda of a bunch of narco-terrorists. Y'know, it's really sad that I hope you're just a troll because if you're serious then you're a completely reprehensible human being.
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Aug 27, 2015 03:16
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Ah the trusty "They're guerilla collaborators!" canard that Colombia uses whenever somebody dares to criticize it's human rights abuses, or anybody they deem "subversive". Of course you also made the ridiculous claim that right-wing paramilitaries don't exist anymore so its fascinating to come across someone who genuine believes in the transparent propaganda of a bunch of narco-terrorists. Says someone who points and claims everything that ever happens bad in a country is caused by the United States or right wing paramilitaries; whichever is more convenient on said day. The irony is amazing. Right Wing Paramilitaries do not exist in Colombia as they did pre-dismobilization. There are ten decentralized little splinter groups that claim to be paramilitaries, but there's also a million splinter groups that claim to be the opposition in Venezuela. But both for all intents and purposes simply do not really exist. Just as a tree falling in the forest unseen and unheard does not exist. Or your posts, if I ignore them; do not exist. Capice maricon? Le voy a dar en la cara PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Aug 27, 2015 |
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Aug 27, 2015 03:53
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Y'know, it's really sad that I hope you're just a troll because if you're serious then you're a completely reprehensible human being. I'd say its far more despicale for someone to knowingly parrot lies that Latin American facists have used to have people dissappeared.
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Aug 27, 2015 04:39
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PerpetualSelf posted:Says someone who points and claims everything that ever happens bad in a country is caused by the United States or right wing paramilitaries; whichever is more convenient on said day. Just don't feed the troll. I'm just reading that the suppossed paramilitary bands are really mostly the old comando groups created by Chavez to "defend the revolution" which have now turned their back on Maduro. Could it be true? Also, if they really block the frontier completely what will happen to the weapons and drug trade? I wonder what Diosdado Cabello thinks or plans to do with this. And the meeting between the countries' chancellors just ended in the blandest way possible. They're lying to our faces and the chancellor does nothing. What else could we expect from this government? > The Venezuelan army kicks people out of their homes, bulldozes their homes. > People are forced to cross the countryside, the wilderness and a river carrying their things on their back before reaching refugee centers of friends' homes on the other side of the border. > The Venezuelan Chancellor says: "We don't mistreat Colombians, we would never do such a thing to our brothers" > The Colombian Chancellor says: "Ok". Tony_Montana fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Aug 27, 2015 |
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Aug 27, 2015 07:04
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Alright I'm going to pop back into yet another Venezuela thread and try to not get frustrated when other goons try to convince me Chavez was a pretty good guy. I'm yet another Venezuelan ex-pat, posting from Spain! my wife and I traveled back there on March 2015 after 5 years away and it was completely depressing after living in a "first-world country". Back when we left we thought things couldn't get much worse and it turns out things can always get shittier. Anyway, I understand this is not the place for posting E/N crap. I just wanted to point out a few things about the current colombian-venezuelan discussion, mostly to give some perspective in case you don't know all of this stuff. Way back then, 80's and 90's when I was a baby and a toddler respectively, Venezuelans were pretty biased against Colombians. My understanding is that a lot of Colombians had traveled to Venezuela following the Oil rush, as one could guess, and often they were treated pretty bad. Not full on ghettos and racism, but there was a lot of bad blood and stereotyping. I'm guessing it would be very similar to American-Mexican relations, mild racism and loaded jokes. Thankfully that got downplayed as timed passed by, since after all Venezuela is an immigrant heavy country and we're pretty used to living along several different ethnicities. That said, there's still some deep seated feeling of superiority in the Venezuelan's collective mind about Colombia. Hell, a LOT of people I know personally attacked Maduro because of being Colombian, very much alike Americans attacking Obama for being "a Muslim" which I thought was funny in a sad way. Also, when Chavez arrived the political relations with Colombia started suffering pretty hard, mostly thanks to the latter's friendliness with the US government, which you might've heard was Chavez favorite enemy. The Xenophobia is nothing new, just a resurgence. Now, since ever, Colombia-Venezuela borders have been a smuggling hotspot. When the current state of affairs started (mainly speaking about the horrible scarcity of products and the currency control) things got even more out of control. There were cars with extra gas tanks going out of Venezuela in order to resell gas for a giant markup, then coming back with clothes, food and hygiene products. Selling those things on the street is known as "Bachaqueo" and can get you in jail in minutes if you're not too careful, but you can basically earn a full month of minimum wage in a single day by reselling shampoo. I have no idea why the border has been kept open so long, really, considering how things work. And a third-party anecdote: My friends currently living in Colombia are getting harassed pretty hardcore since this all started, too. One of them told me she was goint to quit her job because of it and all. What goes around comes around I guess, but then again Venezuelans are starting to get a well deserved infamy in the wole world, anyway.
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Aug 27, 2015 12:16
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One aspect of the border issue that hasn't been pointed out (perhaps because it's so obvious) is that Venezuelan authorities themselves are involved in the smuggling taking place there. Deporting those people is a drop in the bucket compared to the much bigger problem that is Venezuelan army and National Guard authorities actively involved in/allowing the smuggling to take place. The tonnes, truckloads of product making it across the border aren't invisible. In March, the Associated Press was in San Antonio del Tachira and talked to the head of a smuggling operation. The man's alias is "Carteludo", and he told AP that "moving a truck of milk makes more money than cocaine". While four liters of gas cost less than a cent in Venezuela, they go for (or at least went for, in March) three dollars in Colombia. AP also pointed out that there is a "gigantic network of corruption", the existence of which makes the smuggling possible. The article says that the National Guard, the National Bolivarian Police, the SEBIN and the Venezuelan army have all been implicated in accepting bribes at checkpoints when these trucks pass by. The article says that a smuggling operation looks like this: a shell company operates out of Caracas, Maracay or Valencia, for example. The company acquires the transit papers necessary to move the trucks across the country to the border. Once the trucks are loaded, they move (to Tachira, for example), along with a lead vehicle called "la mosca" ["the fly", or "the lookout"]. La mosca's job is to bribe authorities at every checkpoint they drive through, which can total 20 different locations between Caracas and Tachira. The bribes paid for a 650 km journey could total Bs. 80,000 in March, which was about $300 at the time. AP says that "Carteludo" showed them a text message in which a truck delivery had been arranged, and that all the "peajes" [tolls] ""estan cuadrados" ["have been arranged"]. The article says that the most dangerous part of the trip is the border crossing at San Antonio into Cucuta, where the smugglers often choose to cross the border with the help of paramilitaries, who operate exclusively along the border. In other words, saying that the scarcity crisis is Colombia's fault, the paramilitary's fault, (or even worse) the fault of the +1,000 Colombians deported completely ignores the rotten elephant in the room: the Venezuelan authorities that actively/passively let the product reach the border and pass in the first place. Declaring states of exception and cracking down on the poorest of the poor is the wrong way to go about fixing this issue. And if all the paramilitaries get locked up tomorrow, what do you think will happen to that "gigantic network of corruption"? Hugoon Chavez posted:Alright I'm going to pop back into yet another Venezuela thread and try to not get frustrated when other goons try to convince me Chavez was a pretty good guy. Welcome, camarada! I think you'll be surprised by how attitudes have changed since Maduro came along.
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Aug 27, 2015 13:00
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Chuck Boone posted:One aspect of the border issue that hasn't been pointed out (perhaps because it's so obvious) is that Venezuelan authorities themselves are involved in the smuggling taking place there. Oh, well, yes actually I didn't mention it because it's ingrained in my brain that everything bad going on in Venezuela always has the military somewhere profiting from it. Chuck Boone posted:Welcome, camarada! I think you'll be surprised by how attitudes have changed since Maduro came along. I'm pretty relieved actually. Chavez was very smart about his international approach and way too many people found it easy to agree with him demonizing the US. While I have absolutely no love for Chavez and makes me want to believe in afterlife just to have the comfort that he's burning in hell for all eternity, I can understand people that were sympathetic out of ignorance. Watching people react to his discurse has actually made me question my own opinions about everything I don't personally know. But yeah Maduro is just such a loving clown. It's pretty much the same case as Kim Jong-un, a caricature of an unbalanced dictator that just can't fool anyone at this point. My political inclinations bend left a lot more than right and most of the people I've known in Spain share that, and I've had just so many arguments about Chavez and chavism, but when it reaches Maduro, well, now we can all agree on something. So thanks Nicolás for making me fight a lot less with my friends! Anyway, for those who know some spanish and haven't run into this, there's a Spanish Tv Show called "en Tierra Hostil" -in hostile lands- that has the newsteam running around dangerous places and trying to show them as they "really are". They have a pretty scary and surreal show in North Korea, and there's this one in Venezuela. Obviously there's plenty of editing and they mostly speak to Spaniards and middle-class folks, but it's a decent enough peek. We actually arrived from our trip there just as this was airing on TV and thought it was pretty boring compared to everything we had seen. Man they didn't even rob them in Caracas, that's some luck.
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Aug 27, 2015 13:21
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Why is smuggling products from Columbia so profitable? Are basic items like shampoo really that hard to find, or overpriced?
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Aug 27, 2015 16:06
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Mercury_Storm posted:Why is smuggling products from Columbia so profitable? Are basic items like shampoo really that hard to find, or overpriced? Yes. But there's also a thriving business in sneaking some food products out of the country. Milk and gasoline are frequently smuggled from Venezuela to Colombia.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:11
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Mercury_Storm posted:Why is smuggling products from Columbia so profitable? Are basic items like shampoo really that hard to find, or overpriced? It really is scarcity. The usual go-to in the previous thread was that you had a certain ration on toilet paper you could buy.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:14
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Mercury_Storm posted:Why is smuggling products from Columbia so profitable? Are basic items like shampoo really that hard to find, or overpriced? The products are being smuggled to Colombia from Venezuela because they can be purchased really cheaply in Venezuela and sold for a higher price in Colombia. (Another edit: While I'm sure that products are being smuggled into Venezuela because of the scarcity crisis there, the official reason why the border crossings in Tachira were closed was to stop the flow of goods out of Venezuela). Venezuela has strict price controls for basic necessities. There's a list somewhere of what a "basic necessity" is, but it's essentially things like corn flour (the staple of Venezuelan cuisine), toothpaste, toilet paper, sanitary napkins, shampoo, etc. Basic necessities. What the price controls mean is that if I run a supermarket, I must sell the basic necessities at the price mandated by the government. These prices are extremely low. So low, in fact, that some industries complain that they're being forced to operate at a loss because they can't make up for the cost of production through sales. If I live in Venezuela, I can buy a one kilogram of rice for Bs. 8.6. To give you a point of reference for how much Bs. 8.6 is, you can buy a hot dog from a street vendor in Caracas for about Bs. 90. So, I've got my one kilogram of basically-free rice. If I can get it over the border into Colombia, I can sell it at market prices there, which are a hell of a lot more than what I paid for it in Venezuela. Now, imagine that you have access not to one or two kilograms of rice, but tonnes of it. And it's not just rice: it's all basic necessities. Hence why that smuggler in the AP piece pointed out that you can make more money selling milk in Colombia than cocaine. computer parts posted:It really is scarcity. The usual go-to in the previous thread was that you had a certain ration on toilet paper you could buy. Some of the measures taken to help reduce scarcity include establishing limits for how much of a certain product you're allowed to buy at a time. So, as you say, you might not be allowed to buy more than X packs of toilet paper (or whatever other necessity is scarce). Another measure is that you're only allowed to buy scarce necessities on certain days of the week, depending on what the last number of your national ID is. At the beginning of the year, the government began installing fingerprint scanners at cash registers in supermarkets to really make sure that people weren't going over their purchasing limits. The plan at the time was to have the fingerprint scanners installed at all points of sale in the country, but I'm not sure what ended up happening to that. EDIT: I believe that the agency in charge of setting/enforcing the price controls is called the Superintendencia para la Defensa de los Derechos Socioeconómicos (SUNDDE), and I believe that the relevant legislation is called the Ley Organica de Precios Justos. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Aug 27, 2015 |
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Aug 27, 2015 16:27
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Watch Maduro start a loving war.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:31
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It's interesting to hear that Venezuelans have a superiority complex towards Colombians, I assume it's due to their history as an oil-rich state. I also assume that they're starting to have a hard time keeping it up, considering the current state of their economy. I don't think Colombians have to stand in line for toilet paper.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:54
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The problem is, while "Basic products" are cheap, they are almost impossible to get. In March I did about 10 hours of waiting in line with my mom in the two weeks I was there, just so I could buy milk, chicken, deodorant and toothpaste (among other, less scarce things). In fact, when I was going back there, I asked my friends and family what did they want from Spain that I could bring with me. You'd think Spanish products such as cured meats or wine would be the regular gifts. Nope, I brought with me around 20 deodorants. I gave away deodorants like some kind of speed stick santa claus. What actually ends up happening is that people without jobs do long hours in line, even days beforehand, in order to buy as much basic products as they can get away with. Then, they resell them for ten, twenty times more money to people who have decent works, but no time to do lines. Then while 1kg of rice may cost 9BsF , unless you're really lucky you end up paying at least 100 to get it, from the hands of a reseller (or bachaquero). ninjaedit: Both my mom (who's upper middle class) and my mother in law (poor-ish) have developed the same hoarding impulses due to this. Open the fridge and there's kilos of uncooked frozen meat, cans and cans of coke, two unopened packages of salt, etc. If you find something in the store you better buy it even if you don't need it right now because tomorrow there might be no way to find sugar in the whole city. The prices are ridiculous. As in I was constantly with my mouth hanging after asking for the price of things. A thousand Bolivares for a hamburguer. Two thousand in groceries for my mom and dogs alone. Five years ago we could eat with 120 BsF. The best part is that the highest bill is 100, so you can imagine how fun was to carry around enough cash for lunch. It was basically monopoly money and everytime I had to take out my wallet and count 30 bills to pay for a round of beers for five friends it just got weirder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQMLfZ5zbM This video is from 2014 and shows a bunch of people running across town because milk just arrived to the store. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdz_O6VcFoo Line to buy chicken. Phlegmish posted:It's interesting to hear that Venezuelans have a superiority complex towards Colombians, I assume it's due to their history as an oil-rich state. I also assume that they're starting to have a hard time keeping it up, considering the current state of their economy. I don't think Colombians have to stand in line for toilet paper. Yep, and the worst part about it is that we're just getting worse. Many, many venezuelans leaving the country develop an even more inflated sense of self and arrive to their new home feeling cocky and superior to everyone else. They speak of the people remaining there with disdain and even insult the citizens of their new country. There's thousands of venezuelans living in Panama now that treat Panamanians as "uneducated indians". It's like the further we get from our previous state of privileged, rich country, the biggest assholes we become trying to compensate for it. Obviously it's just a generalization, from my personal observations. edit: Venegoons, don't be like that when you leave. Please. Pleaaase?? Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Aug 27, 2015 |
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Aug 27, 2015 17:06
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Hugoon Chavez posted:The prices are ridiculous. As in I was constantly with my mouth hanging after asking for the price of things. A thousand Bolivares for a hamburguer. Two thousand in groceries for my mom and dogs alone. Five years ago we could eat with 120 BsF. The best part is that the highest bill is 100, so you can imagine how fun was to carry around enough cash for lunch. It was basically monopoly money and everytime I had to take out my wallet and count 30 bills to pay for a round of beers for five friends it just got weirder. Another point of reference: the minimum monthly salary in Venezuela is Bs. 7,421.67. Whenever it's increased (and it's increased quite often), Maduro and the PSUV like to go on about how Venezuela has the greatest, most frequent increases to minimum wage because they put the workers first, etc. Inflation is so out of control that the increases aren't even close to keeping up with it. They're meaningless gestures. "A thousand bolivares for a hamburger": let that sink in. Working minimum wage, at 7 hamburgers you've got essentially no money left for anything else that month. Hugoon Chavez posted:Obviously it's just a generalization, from my personal observations. I've heard really bad things about the Venezuelan communities in Panama and Miami. While I admittedly don't keep in close contact with Venezuelans here in Toronto and the surrounding areas, the ones I've met are hard working and really thankful for the opportunity Canada has given them.
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Aug 27, 2015 17:20
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Chuck Boone posted:Another point of reference: the minimum monthly salary in Venezuela is Bs. 7,421.67. Whenever it's increased (and it's increased quite often), Maduro and the PSUV like to go on about how Venezuela has the greatest, most frequent increases to minimum wage because they put the workers first, etc. Inflation is so out of control that the increases aren't even close to keeping up with it. They're meaningless gestures. Ah yes, the claim that Venezuela has the highest salary is such an outright lie that's insulting. That claim is done with the official exchange rate for dollars. At of this moment, the official exchange rate of Bolivars to the dollar is: 6.35 bsf = 1$. Base salary by this exchange: 1168$ The actual exchange rate people can trade for: 714,90 BsF = 1$. Base salary by this exchange: 10.39$ This is why it's simply better to quit your job and go resell stuff. When I was there I was very surprised to see every store and business hiring. Why? Well, a store clerk makes 7k a month, but if he lucks out and manages to buy, say, twenty packs of toilet paper, he can sell that poo poo (paper) for 200 Bs a piece. That's half their salary in what, a week of work if he hits the street to sell the toilet paper? And that's only one product. quote:
A venezuelan will always be one of the two. Either hard-working, good people, or opportunistic assholes. We're almost always good for a laugh no matter what, though. Edit: I think Panama and Miami are just the "easy" ways out right now, and that's why many of the worse Venezuelan migrating end up there. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Aug 27, 2015 |
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Aug 27, 2015 17:39
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I'm from Miami and currently live in a part of broward (next county over) named Weston which is colloquially known as "westonzuela". I know alot of Venezuelans. They're just as good or bad as any group really, some real assholes, some really nice people. Honestly, I find Colombians more annoying than Venezuelans but that might be because my in laws are Colombian. Edit: I like the way you guys fill arepas with lots of stuff though
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Aug 27, 2015 22:01
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I think Santos is not doing anything drastic or say anything publicly because Maduro want's him to do something, and doing something would be playing into his hand. Colombia is very close to withdrawing from Unasur. The whole event has kind of unmasked the entity as some kind of bolivarian lap dog. Maduro said the border will be open when Colombia outlaws contraband. We'll do it as soon as Venezuela does it. It's kind of funny because Colombia just passed a major anti-contraband law that really hurt small businesses because they have to show they brought the products they sell legally and paid taxes on them and loving nobody does that except the big corporations because you really don't pay taxes on it if you do the paperwork but the paperwork is so heavy no small business could ever hope to do it. It's like a 26 step process and 5 different forms that need to be signed by 8 different government officials. Takes months. Not that the small retailers were doing well with imports seeing how the Colombian Peso has los 40% of its worth versus the dollar over the past year. PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Aug 28, 2015 |
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Aug 28, 2015 02:37
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Alright I'm going to pop back into yet another Venezuela thread and try to not get frustrated when other goons try to convince me Chavez was a pretty good guy. Seems like things can only get worse for Venezuela, as Venezuelan expats are cut off from being able to provide hard currency in the form of remittances from their new nations of residence to their Venezuelan relatives and friends. Venezuela: If it can get worse under communist rule, it will.
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Aug 28, 2015 03:05
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My Imaginary GF posted:Seems like things can only get worse for Venezuela, as Venezuelan expats are cut off from being able to provide hard currency in the form of remittances from their new nations of residence to their Venezuelan relatives and friends. At this point things will be way worse before they start improving, yes. I actually manage to send money back to our families by selling euros here to other venezuelan ex-pats and having them use their funds still tyied in Venezuela to deposit the equivalent amount to my mom and mother in-law. I also know some people that are traveling back there this month and I'm sending some too. It's cool because my mother in-law is moving to Santo Domingo with her other daughter so that's one less thing to worry about. She has been kidnapped and her home broken into twice in the past year! Gozinbulx posted:Edit: I like the way you guys fill arepas with lots of stuff though Yes this is our gift to the world, and don't let Colombians tell you that they invented Arepas. It's a lie and theirs are inferior to ours. See I also have a superiority complex, just about food. Because it's better.
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Aug 28, 2015 08:04
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PerpetualSelf posted:I think Santos is not doing anything drastic or say anything publicly because Maduro want's him to do something, and doing something would be playing into his hand. I think that given the circumstances Santos has done what he can reasonably be expected to do in this situation. I don't think he is - nor should he be - worried one bit about what Maduro or Venezuelans think about him. I think that public sentiment in Colombia is fairly clear on the issue, given the way the deportees were treated in Venezuela, and that's the audience Santos is playing to. After the initial meeting between Foreign Ministers on Wednesday, Santos and Maduro both summoned the other country's ambassadors to talk about the issue. Colombian Foreign Affairs Minister Maria Angela Holguin said yesterday that Santos called Maduro over the weekend to discus the issue, but that Maduro hasn't called Santos back. She also said that Colombia has reached out to the Venezuelan People's Defender and the governor of Tachira state, but that neither of them have responded. It's almost as if the Venezuelan government isn't really interested in coming up with a meaningful, lasting solution to the issue! Yesterday, Santos also said that he was calling for a meeting of UNASUR so that Colombia could go on record there about what has happened. Also yesterday, Maduro gave a speech at an event in Caracas (I think it was Caracas) and he made a couple of more-or-less concrete demands he wants Colombia to meet before he reopens the border. The video is here and my translation is below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2SaM3m8h9c quote:I hope that the Colombian government comes to its senses and starts to protect the Colombian people along the Venezuelan border. That’s what I’m asking for. For the Colombian government to wake up and instead of protecting paramilitaries and smugglers, protect the people of Norte de Santander and Cucuta. That’s what I’m hoping for here. I want the Colombian government to prohibit the sale Venezuelan products taken out of the country through smuggling and bachaqueo on Colombian territory. Until he does this, I won’t open the border. And the Colombian government must stop the Bolivar from getting attacked in Cucuta and Colombia. Until he does this, I won’t open the border. There was also a really interesting article published in RunRun.es yesterday that talked about how the border in Tachira is still porous, thanks exclusively to the ease with which Venezuelan guards are bribed. The article claims that a guide to lead you to the border costs Bs. 2,000, and that the guides charge Bs. 700 per person to cover the bribes for Venezuelan guards. A guide who works out of San Antonio, Tachira said: quote:If the authorities from here [Venezuela] catch you, they'll take you. On the other hand, the soldiers from the other side of the river will treat you very well. You have to be afraid of the ones here [Venezuela]. Over there, bribing a guard is really complicated. It's not like it is here.
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Aug 28, 2015 14:21
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Well the Colombian opposition has been attacking Santos pretty hard for not doing enough.
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Aug 29, 2015 00:24
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Chuck Boone posted:I think that given the circumstances Santos has done what he can reasonably be expected to do in this situation. I don't think he is - nor should he be - worried one bit about what Maduro or Venezuelans think about him. I think that public sentiment in Colombia is fairly clear on the issue, given the way the deportees were treated in Venezuela, and that's the audience Santos is playing to. From your perspective, what would be the most sustainable Columbian response to Venezuela's implementation of its cashgrab ethnic cleansing? Maduro is coming off a lot like Dada Amin when Amin kicked the Indians out of Uganda.
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Aug 29, 2015 00:45
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Chuck Boone posted:The article claims that a guide to lead you to the border costs Bs. 2,000, and that the guides charge Bs. 700 per person to cover the bribes for Venezuelan guards As a comparison, I payed 3000 Bs for a trustworthy guy to Taxi me from Caracas to the airport, which is about 40 minutes away.
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Aug 29, 2015 00:57
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My Imaginary GF posted:From your perspective, what would be the most sustainable Columbian response to Venezuela's implementation of its cashgrab ethnic cleansing? Like I said, given the circumstances I don't think there's a whole lot more Colombia can do without creating an even greater humanitarian crisis. I'd argue that a "sustainable response" is anything that doesn't make the situation worse. What Maduro has done is inexcusable, but Santos has very limited options. I'm sure the opposition is tearing into him over his government's response, but that's the opposition's job, isn't it? The Colombian government has condemned the deportations in the strongest possible diplomatic terms. Santos visited a deportee camp in Cucuta on Wednesday. He promised the deportees financial help, including access to jobs. As of Wednesday, the Colombian government was trying to arrange for trucks to enter Venezuela and collect whatever belongings the Venezuelan authorities hadn't looted. I'm not sure what the status of that is, but like I said, as of Wednesday that was in the works. Santos has met with the Venezuelan ambassador to Colombia. Santos has personally reached out to Maduro, and the Foreign Ministry has reached out to the Venezuelan People's Defender and the governor of Tachira. All evidence that there is an earnest willingness on the side of Colombia to get as many people talking about this as possible in the hopes of reaching some kind of understanding. Like I said before, I think Venezuela is not interested in seriously talking about this, but that's outside of Colombia's control. Yesterday, Colombian Attorney General Alejandro Ordonez said that what was happening was a "crime against humanity" and that his office was getting paperwork ready to submit a formal complaint at the International Criminal Court. Santos has also called for a UNASUR meeting, although UNASUR has just been shuffling its feet. There are at least hundreds of thousands of Colombian citizens still living in Venezuela. It is obvious that Maduro is not interested in the well-being of anyone but himself and whatever group of elites he's holding onto power for. Whatever Santos does, he needs to do with the knowledge that tomorrow, Venezuela and Colombia will still share a border. Edit: Sorry for not being more direct. I believe the best course of action for Colombia to take is a diplomatic one, including bringing this situation to the attention of as many international organizations as they can. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Aug 29, 2015 |
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Aug 29, 2015 01:39
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The Colombian press is now saying that the crisis was started because venezuela didnt want two drug lords that Colombia extradited to the usa toIdk be extradited. They're quoting el nuevo heraldo a spanish language newspaper from miami. According to them the Venezuelan government had pushed against the extradition because the two drug lords had deep connections to the group's that run drugs through venezuela with the assistance of the venezuelan generals and politicians. http://www.elnuevoherald.com/noticias/mundo/america-latina/venezuela-es/article32595408.html Here is that article. It also says that the supposed attack by the paramilitaries was actually a battle between two opposing groups of the Venezuelan military. PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Aug 29, 2015 |
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Aug 29, 2015 15:58
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A friend pointed this one out to me and I though it illustrates pretty well the hypocrisy that had been post of the chavist movement since the beginning but that is so evident now. Maduro heavily criticizes Trump and calls him a bandit and a bully, then goes ahead and deports a bunch Colombians and mocks them on TV. It has always been like that, point the finger at the big bad USA and play the just underdog that is not afraid of the big bully, while on their own soil they do ten times worst. It's just that Maduro is too dumb to play the game properly.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:18
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An anecdote from the ground regarding inflation and scarcity: last week I had a leaking pipe in my kitchen, a minor inconvenience that forced me to mop up every half-hour or risk water spreading over the entire place. I called a guy who usually fixes that kind of stuff for me to come as soon as possible and he arrived early next morning, aside from the pipe, the sink's faucet had also broken and needed to be replaced so we went out to look around for a new one. It took us 5 stores to find a faucet that wouldn't break my bank, since most were priced between 15-20k Bolivares (minimum wage here is 7k bolivares) and we finally found a store that still had a decent one (and had forgotten to update their prices, I assume) at 5k. We come back and once the faucet is replaced and the pipe sealed, the guy says it's going to be 1.2k for his labour (aproximately 1/7th of that minimum wage), which according to my friends was fantastically cheap. The real kicker is that while he was working at my home we got to talking and I told him how there was a bakery around here that sells coffee bags under the table (heavily regulated product that's impossible to find except in the black market or without queuing for hours at a big supermarket) and he tells me how he hasn't had any coffee at home for a long while now, so I end up giving him 300g of coffee and a 4-pack of toilet paper in lieu of 400Bs and the guy walked away much happier than if he had gotten cash in hand, since it was partly his idea. I paid my plumber in part with coffee and toilet paper and we both walked away satisfied, while feeling lucky as hell that we'd actually managed to find a "cheap" faucet and still I ended up spending almost the entire equivalent of a minimum wage for something that esentially took less than two hours. I shudder when I imagine if an actual critical appliance in my home were to break, a regular fridge would cost me over 300k (or 42 months of a minimum wage), my computer (an i3 with 4gb of ram and a 21" screen), which cost approximately 5k around 5 years ago and is how I earn my living, would cost approximately 100k these days. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Aug 30, 2015 |
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Aug 30, 2015 00:35
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When prices go crazy like that, people just start using cigarettes and booze as currency.
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Aug 30, 2015 10:30
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Toilet paper becomes incredibly valuable when you can't find toilet paper. You can't wipe your rear end with cigarettes and if you put booze down there it's gonna end up clean but you aren't going to enjoy it.
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Aug 30, 2015 11:25
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Toilet paper becomes incredibly valuable when you can't find toilet paper. You can't wipe your rear end with cigarettes and if you put booze down there it's gonna end up clean but you aren't going to enjoy it.
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Aug 30, 2015 12:19
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Maybe Colombia should of done to Venezuela what Russia did to Georgia.
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Aug 30, 2015 21:14
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If there's a silver lining to this it's that in a few weeks Maduro and the PSUV will probably drop this issue and then it'll be like it never happened because they'll seldom mention it again. Barely a month ago everything coming from the government was about the border dispute with Guyana over the Essequibo region. I remember that there was a period of about 2-3 weeks were every single day I spent a good chunk of time reading about what [insert PSUV official's name here] had said about the Essequibo that day. Then, suddenly, no one's talking about it. The Colombian Attorney General's office is launching an investigation into allegations that Venezuelan National Guard soldiers abused Colombian women as they were crossing the border last week. The AG isn't giving a lot of details about the investigation beyond saying that they've received more than one complaint and that they're looking into it. Santos said yesterday that over the past ten days, 1,097 Colombians were deported from the country and another 7,162 returned to Colombia willingly. In more depressing news, a 76 year old woman died in a stampede at a Mercal supermarket in Barinas on Friday. She was waiting outside the supermarket with hundreds of other people when the supermarket opened its doors and the stampede happened. She died on the scene. The picture below is of the crowd outside the Mercal that morning: 
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Aug 31, 2015 00:01
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Colombia has now decided to offer free Colombian citizenship to all Venezuelans. I think this is a dangerous precedent as a Colombian i'm not in favor of it. It could lead to a massive invasion of Venezuelans in Colombia that could overload all our social safety nets and infrastructure. It might be better to go to war. PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 31, 2015 |
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Aug 31, 2015 01:04
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All Venezuelans can now be Colombians, the first step to a new Gran Colombia.
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Aug 31, 2015 03:23
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PerpetualSelf posted:Colombia has now decided to offer free Colombian citizenship to all Venezuelans. http://www.noticiascaracol.com/colombia/gobierno-ofrece-la-nacionalidad-venezolanos-que-deseen-vivir-en-colombia The reporters say that "venezuelans will be given colombian citizenship" but the colombian minister says pretty clearly that their aim is to keep families together, so spouses and family members of colombians will be free to apply for citizenship.
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Aug 31, 2015 03:30
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 06:55 |
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Hugoon Chavez posted:She has been kidnapped and her home broken into twice in the past year! And she's OK? Are they very courteous kidnappers in Venezuela? 
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Aug 31, 2015 05:13
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