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Adiabatic says I should never not project thread, so here's a project thread, fellas. Warning: I am a raging sperglord and there's going to be a lot of technical talk and (initially) not a huge number of photos as nothing of particular note has happened yet. I've wanted, for a very long time, a 3rd generation Subaru Liberty sedan (Legacy outside Australia, where I'm located, and hereafter referred to as a Legacy for brevity's sake) - but nearly all the manual ones seem to have the boring 2.5L NA motor which makes something like 167hp. Not so awesome. For the 3rd generation Legacy Subaru made a model they called the B4 here and in Japan the B4 or GT, which had the ~280hp twin-sequential-turbo EJ206/EJ208 engine (the 206 is the one for autos, making 20 less horsepower). Examples left alive in the country are mostly either absurdly overpriced or completely and totally wrecked by their HEAPS HEKTIK BRO THAT'S MAD SICK owners. I'm told that this model was never available in the US due to issues with packaging the engine into an LHD chassis. The following text contains my original justification for purchasing the project vehicle in question, though no plan survives contact with the enemy and due to some discoveries made after purchase most of it is no longer valid: I was having a look through the Import Monster (a local japanese car importer) listings and I found this absolutely glorious looking example of a Legacy GT Bilstein, which (as the name suggests) has factory Bilstein coilovers, etc etc etc - all kinds of super nice stuff. I can't straight up import it, sadly, as the B4 model sold locally was effectively the same, so it's banned from import under Australian import law until it's 25 years old. I can get a front cut, though, and all up it's looking at being an eminently reasonable amount of money to bring in the front cut (which consists, apparently, of pretty much the entire car minus the bodyshell from the A pillar back - i get all the interior, suspension, everything). Alright, what do I do with it, then? I found a B4 locally for ~$2500 (for comparison, here, one in good nick with similar KM on the clock is ~$10,000) where the engine had been run out of oil, spun a bearing, and then continued to be driven (At least with oil) for a few more months until it "refused to start anymore" whereupon the PO left it on his back lawn for six months. It's got 150,002kms on the clock, 5 speed manual, practical, basically perfect (in my eyes) - though she might get an STi 6-speed down the line. The interior is in immaculate condition, it has an almost perfectly complete service history (there's a gap from 50,000 to 80,000 but that's it) - hell, it even came with all the original documentation, manuals and the keypad two-stage immobilizer (which, against all odds, still works!) So I did the thing. I bought a twin turbo subaru with a spun rod bearing. I will make my avatar proud! (Never mind that my current daily is a 2015 Fiesta ST, which is also heavily turbocharged and stupidly fun in the twisties)    the tow vehicle didn't appreciate all this weight... poor 4Runner. I am sorry. I've been made very aware of what I did wrong and how dangerous this was, and if I ever have to flatbed the car again it will likely be done by a professional with a flatbed towtruck. It does bear mentioning however that it's not as bad as it looks - the 4runner in question has a lift kit and so the front wheels are roughly at normal ride height in this photo. So having gotten her home (or rather, to the house of a very good friend who has graciously allowed me to take over his carport with one and a half Subarus) and start checking out some details; This is where I ran into the first snag. Before I get into that, here's a short youtube clip of what happened after I put a new battery and terminals in (factory terminals were bent to hell) and gave it a crank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnvnZuXKKsE warning: this video is not recommended for those with weak stomachs or extreme mechanical empathy Oh god. You poor thing. shhhhhhhhh, it's ok, it's ok, you can go to the great scrapyard in the sky soon i promise no more tears, only dreams now (I'm surprised it hasn't opened a window in the block) Back to the hold-up at hand. There's four "revisions" of the EJ208 engine. A/B/C/D. The A-C engines are largely identical and parts can be pretty freely swapped between them. The D revision, produced from June 2001 until the end of Gen3, has a different intake manifold, different cams (I am told the same cams as you find in a v5 STi, but I'm not clear on if that's true), different turbochargers (A/B/C have primary VF25 and secondary VF27 turbos, D have primary VF33 and secondary VF32 turbos - in both cases the turbine wheels are identical, however the "secondary" turbo has a slightly larger compressor wheel to help with top-end power), the pink 550cc STi injectors instead of the 440cc ones, slightly different wiring, different accessory drive pulley, etc etc etc. There's actually a really good reason for all these changes; the EJ208A/B/C all have a fairly prominent torque dip at 4000rpm as the system changes from single-turbo mode to twin-turbo mode - Subaru sequential turbo systems actually run one turbo until it begins to run out of puff and then spool up the second turbo and run both in parallel until redline - EJ208/206 owners refer to this as the Valley of Death or VoD. The EJ208D's adjusted manifolds, turbos and cams almost entirely eliminate the VoD, and it's also much more forgiving when you try to wind up the power or run on E85, as long as you give it the care and attention it deserves. Unfortunately these changes mean that a car with a D engine can't have an A/B/C engine fitted without a lot of shenanigans; and really, who wants an A/B/C when they could have the D and not have any VoD issues? Needless to say, my car has a D engine as it was built in August 2001. "BE5D" right there on the Applied Model code on the build plate. If you read the spoiler'd text up above, you'll know that my original plan was to import a JDM half-cut with engine and swap that engine in. Locating an EJ208D car has proven to be fairly hard and the only examples I've been able to find are outside of my price range; not that I couldn't afford them, just that I don't think they're worth what was being asked for them. I called basically every JDM engine importer in the city and against all odds I've found a place fifteen minutes away from where we're working on it that imported an EJ208D just last week, and will sell it to me for a very reasonable price. Picking it up on Tuesday. So tomorrow we'll be cleaning out the carport and doing winch shenangians to get her up to where she'll sit for optimistically the next few weeks, though probably a couple of months since things always come up to slow us down. In theory it should be a fairly simple engine-out-engine-in as both engines should be pretty much identical, but we'll see if THAT particular plan survives contact with the enemy. This just about wraps up the first catch-up episode of our series. Updates will come as they are available. If you see me doing something really stupid, please please tell me - I have done engine-out stuff before, but only in transverse FWD cars, so this could get interesting. tl;dr bought broken car, discovered it has unicorn engine, found another unicorn engine through sheer dumb luck, watch me and my friends stumble through swapping it out over the next couple months. literally a fish fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 15:55
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For motor in motor out, Just flip all your accessories to the side and rip that poo poo out. Leave the intake manifold on. You can get single turbos out just by taking off the down pipe, not sure about twins. RE: retarded TT unicorn poo poo. Most people convert them to single from what I've seen to get rid of the extra stuff. Out here we don't get them because the second turbo hits the steering shaft. If you're happy with the D setup and can just swap like for like, go for it. Also if you run into any differences, usually you match the manifold and cam gears to the car. I don't really know how the TT stuff works because we never got them, but people have run all sorts of motors with the wrong ECU just by keeping the sensors and sensor signal making things with the car and changing long blocks. SSS is going to be more helpful as he's actually seen them in real life. Slow is Fast fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 16:46
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Motor-out, motor-in should be a simple and fun project! Glad you made a thread. I just dropped a single turbo into an outback a week ago, and it's pretty nice to be able to mate the bellhousing with the block by picking up the transmission by the CV joints. That reminds me: I always forget about the dumb dust plate at the bottom of the block, and it gets stuck and/or kinked on the bottom of the bellhousing. Don't be like me!
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Sep 11, 2015 17:27
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Slow is Fast posted:For motor in motor out, Just flip all your accessories to the side and rip that poo poo out. Leave the intake manifold on. You can get single turbos out just by taking off the down pipe, not sure about twins. Just have to take off both downpipes on the twin and it comes out just as easily, it looks like. From what I've read about the EJ208D TT setup, it'll suit my needs perfectly - and if not I can always grab a nice VF23 and a v5/6 manual WRX ECU and convert to single turbo down the line. There's a company up in Sydney who sell fully built 2.2L Cosworth "EJ22" stroker motors that make 500hp who offered to ship my car up to them and install it for $13,500, which would be tempting if I had that kind of money to burn. Adiabatic posted:Motor-out, motor-in should be a simple and fun project! Glad you made a thread. That's actually a question I meant to ask - am I better off removing just engine or removing engine+transmission, from the looks of things there's no need to remove the trans unless I need to replace it, and this avoids touching the axles, so I should leave the trans behind right? I need to find a workshop manual for this car :V Are there any things I should be doing while the engine is out other than spark plugs, clutch, maybe timing belt? I feel like there's something else but I can't
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Sep 11, 2015 18:00
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Subaru engine-outs are easy mode. Because the engine is so far forward, you have plenty of room to get to the bellhousing bolts. Slow is Fast and I have done quite a few between us and, even doing a clutch, engine-only is the way to go. Edit: Valve cover gaskets should be on your engine-out list. They're more difficult than they should be in situ. Also check that the rear main seal and the access cover behind the flywheel aren't leaking. They're common leak points and require either the engine or the trans to come out. Oil pan as well, again considering the difficulty in situ. Adiabatic fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 18:03
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Adiabatic posted:Subaru engine-outs are easy mode. Because the engine is so far forward, you have plenty of room to get to the bellhousing bolts. Slow is Fast and I have done quite a few between us and, even doing a clutch, engine-only is the way to go. Engine out is simple. No need to pull out engine and trans as one piece. RE: clutch, I'm faster doing trans out on a lift, but no lift engine out wins.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:07
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Slow is Fast posted:Engine out is simple. No need to pull out engine and trans as one piece. RE: clutch, I'm faster doing trans out on a lift, but no lift engine out wins. I actually like mating the trans to the engine with the trans in place, now that I've done both more than a couple of times. It may be a little longer with a lift, but in my humble opinion it's less of a headache. I hate aligning at weird angles. Thoughts?
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Sep 11, 2015 18:12
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As long as you remember to put a piece of cardboard in front of the AC condenser when you pull the engine out, engine out is almost always better. Punching a hole in the condenser with the crank pulley is a fast trip to not having any fun town. Once you get most of the turbo accessories out of the way you'll see how easy it actually is. Subaru gets a little sloppy near the firewall especially with the twin turbo cars.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:14
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Adiabatic posted:I hate aligning at weird angles. Thoughts? Trans jack with knobs to change angles biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttcccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhh That and a 2x4 to set motor angle.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:16
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Slow is Fast posted:Trans jack with knobs to change angles biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttcccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhh I've never used a trans jack for some insanely stupid reason. 20ish non-subaru trans R&Rs. I'm weird, I know. Cue picture of me
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Sep 11, 2015 18:22
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And I don't think I'd ever do a clutch by pulling the engine. Even on jackstands. Tha probably has a pull-clutch so don't forget to disconnect the throwout bearing before you start yanking on it. And then make sure the dowel pins are right when you put the new block back in. And don't force it. If everything is lined up right it will side on easily.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:22
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Adiabatic posted:Subaru engine-outs are easy mode. Because the engine is so far forward, you have plenty of room to get to the bellhousing bolts. Slow is Fast and I have done quite a few between us and, even doing a clutch, engine-only is the way to go. Ah yes! Rear main seal and valve cover gaskets. Shall add to the list of things to do. Step 1: find service manual so I can call subaru and ask for specific part numbers. "Subaru engine-outs are easy mode" is definitely what I want to hear. Who knows, we might get this done in 2 weeks after all!  -knocks on every available piece of wood-Seat Safety Switch posted:As long as you remember to put a piece of cardboard in front of the AC condenser when you pull the engine out, engine out is almost always better. Punching a hole in the condenser with the crank pulley is a fast trip to not having any fun town. AC condenser cardboard shield noted. From what I remember it looks fairly simple to remove the turbo heat shields and downpipes, and it DOES look like I should be able to get to the bellhousing bolts. EZPZ. New engine even has all the accessories on it, I'm told. Another question (sorry!); do I actually need to get the flywheel resurfaced with a clutch change? literally a fish fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 18:34
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literally a fish posted:Another question (sorry!); do I actually need to get the flywheel resurfaced with a clutch change? Abso-loving-lutely
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Sep 11, 2015 18:41
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Adiabatic posted:Abso-loving-lutely As usual, youtube people are hackjobs. Got it.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:44
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There's this guy on the local Subaru group that swears against flywheel resurfacing, and also can't seem to figure out why he's gone through 4 clutches in 8k miles.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:46
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And it costs like, $30.
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Sep 11, 2015 19:00
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I always just replace the flywheel altogether. It wastes money but I've had resurfaced flywheels that seemed to produce a lot of clutch chatter. Some flywheels like the Legacy GT dual-mass flywheels can't be resurfaced either.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:00
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Seat Safety Switch posted:I always just replace the flywheel altogether. It wastes money but I've had resurfaced flywheels that seemed to produce a lot of clutch chatter. Ah crap, according to this:  It's a dual-mass flywheel. I'll need to buy a new one then, yes? That's a shame as I was totally OK with paying $30-50 for resurfacing  Edit: It looks like while it has a dual-mass flywheel the plain ole single-mass just bolts up and works fine, and only SOME of them have the dual-mass for the AUDM, which is great. I'll have to take a look at the new engine once I have it and see what it's got. literally a fish fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 00:34
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poo poo I always forget about the dual mass flywheel in the legacies. My buddy was successful in using a single mass flywheel in place of his old dual mass, and it should be well documented.
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Sep 12, 2015 01:35
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From a quick read up on a Legacy-specific forum (and a download of Subaru's FAST vehicle part number identifier) I'm looking for a 12342AA050 for the single-mass replacement for the dual-mass. It apparently bolts straight up and only makes a small difference to NVH, and since it appears to be half the price of the dual-mass, I reckon I'll go down that road. Hopefully one of my two engines already has a single-mass flywheel that I can just get machined (stranger things have happened) but if not, at least I know what I have to buy now. 
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Sep 12, 2015 01:59
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If you want aftermarket, I think Exedy part FF01 or ACT 600175 will also work.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:33
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I have had dual mass flywheels replaced with single mass flywheels in two of my Liberty wagons over the years. Imo, they are much more durable too.
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Sep 12, 2015 14:54
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homebrew posted:I have had dual mass flywheels replaced with single mass flywheels in two of my Liberty wagons over the years. Imo, they are much more durable too. jamal posted:If you want aftermarket, I think Exedy part FF01 or ACT 600175 will also work. Exedy's website says that FF01 will fit, but I'm told by a couple of friends who have other models of the same car that I probably don't want a lightweight flywheel, and they don't make a non-lightened one apparently. It's not any cheaper than an OE single-mass anyway. From what I've read all the dual-mass does is remove some NVH at idle, which I'm not concerned about at all, so if I gotta buy a new flywheel it'll be single-mass. Some small amount of progress has been made. We began our work today (mostly non-car-related, cleaning the two-feet-deep pile of stuff out of the carport) with a nice sunny early afternoon, the first nice one we've had in a while, and the car about 40 feet downhill from where it needed to be.    So we cleaned out the carport where the swap will be taking place (coming up into spring/summer here so rain shouldn't be too much of an issue, and it's going to get a tarp-wall anyway) and towed/pushed/winched/rolled her up and in. Not pictured: towing it most of the way up with the 4runner and the half hour of fuckery using a manual winch with only three feet of length fully unwound to get it the last 15 feet up the driveway and onto the flat bit. My knees want to have me killed, but it will be worth it. Picking up new engine on Tuesday, will be starting removal of the old engine then too.
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Sep 13, 2015 10:27
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We might have parts you want in the future. I know we have a steady growing pile of Subaru engines.
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Sep 13, 2015 11:28
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Things i'm currently chasing are: a single-mass flywheel (PNs 12342-AA010, 12342-AA050, 12342-AA071) - it looks like pretty much any post-1998 EJ20 turbo flywheel fits, and I only need it if neither engine already has one a 5sp shift knob (not a big deal), and a stock Liberty B4 exhaust/intake (for rego purposes) I'm sure I'll find more poo poo I need, though.
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Sep 13, 2015 11:40
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Lightened flywheels are OK, if that's the only thing you can get. If you combine a lightened flywheel with a lightened crank pulley you can get codes thrown on the older NA and turbo Subarus, but I've run a lightened flywheel before and no problems. Generally I tend to go for the OE, especially if the car is new to you and the price difference is small. No sense changing more than one variable at a time.
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Sep 13, 2015 16:26
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Ve have obtained ze new engine, ja.  The good news is that it's definitely also an EJ208D, so I have a unicorn TT engine to replace my unicorn TT engine. The also good news is that the donor engine has a single-mass flywheel, and the parts guy at the local subaru dealer reckons the broken engine should have one too, so I should have my pick of flywheels to get machined (and have at least one) - new clutch it is! It came with its ECU and ECU-to-engine harness, which is useful if I decide to mail one of the ECUs off to be modified for open-source tuning / flex-fuel etc as well. The bad news is that we have no real idea how many kilometres are on this engine, so if I have half a brain I should do the timing belt just to be safe. It looks very new, like it's been well taken care of and done very few km (importer reckoned under 50,000, and he brings a lot of these in), so hopefully all else should be good. Also dropped by both hardware store and auto parts store for engine leveler, drain pans, impact sockets, coolant concentrate (was on sale), etc etc - should have most to all of the tools required now. That's about all the actual progress I have to report, though. Today was cut short by the weather taking a turn for the very cold. Tomorrow is drain fluids and start removing old wrecked engine. It'd be nice if the warmth of the last few days would come back, but weatherman says "nah, next week maybe". literally a fish fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Sep 15, 2015 |
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Sep 15, 2015 10:16
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That engine, just from the looks of the timing belt cover and the exhaust manifold, seems to be decently low mileage and not from a very harsh environment. I'd go ahead and do the timing belt just because of how easy it is to accomplish with the engine out. It'll probably be the hardest part of this swap. It's easy, just a snug fit. You'll want to bolt the driver's side cams together if possible, to lock them in place for ease of installation. There's a super special Subaru tool you can buy to do so. Water pump, timing belt tensioner, and idler pulleys are also good insurance and only add another half hour to the job. Nice German/Spanish accent for the Japanese motor in Australia, by the way.
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Sep 15, 2015 13:47
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It really does look to be in very good nick, I'd say I've gotten a pretty good deal on this one as most of the halfcuts i was initially looking at had done 130,000+km. Yeah, belt/waterpump/tensioner/idlers are on the list of things to buy. Dayco and Gates both make a kit with all of the above included, so I'll probably pick one of those up, though I'm not sure if I should choose one brand over the other? Both seem fine, and both are $400. And then another $600 for the Exedy heavy-duty clutch. Cars are expensive it'll be worth every dollar when it's done, though.
literally a fish fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Sep 15, 2015 |
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Sep 15, 2015 14:01
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Adiabatic posted:You'll want to bolt the driver's side cams together if possible, to lock them in place for ease of installation. There's a super special Subaru tool you can buy to do so. Can you make a similar tool using some flat metal plates with a bolt through them to jam between the gears?
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Sep 15, 2015 22:39
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Gates timing kit, OEM water pump. You don't need any special tools to put on the belt. Done the right way it is pretty simple to get the cam gears lined up. Wedging pieces of metal between the plastic gears is a good way to have them explode randomly though.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:42
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Duly noted, Gates/OEM it is. I can only seem to find the cam locking tool in the UK for $$$, and it looks like I should be able to get away without it. According to the FSM I have to remove a camshaft gear to get to the water pump  (there are bolts hiding behind it) - am I going to need the cam gear wrench tool to do that?
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Sep 16, 2015 00:34
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No, you don't need to do that. With the belt off the water pump comes right out. Just don't overtorque the bolts or mix them up with the ones for the timing cover.
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Sep 16, 2015 03:40
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jamal posted:No, you don't need to do that. With the belt off the water pump comes right out. Just don't overtorque the bolts or mix them up with the ones for the timing cover. Well that's a relief. I've been putting groups of bolts (that can't just be threaded back whence they came) into labelled ziploc bags as I remove them, which I find is very helpful. Not a lot of progress today, but things have begun in earnest. Also confirmed that both new and old engine have the 550cc pink STi injectors, which is yet more confirmation that both are revD unicorn motors, as if I needed that.   Started pulling anything we're swapping from the old motor off the new motor, and removing accessories. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get the A/C pump off without removing the intake manifold which i'd rather not have to do - one of the bolts is pretty well hidden under the manifold, it'll be a bit of a heroic effort to try to get a socket or wrench in there. My Ryobi electric impact is performing admirably even at removing exhaust bolts, which is a pleasant surprise. Is there anything particularly crappy involved with emptying and recharging the A/C system? I'd obviously prefer to pull the pump off and leave it charged for the whole thing but if I can't get the pump off I don't really have a choice, and living where I do A/C is not an option. Took the hood off the car, drained all the fluids and pulled the radiator, started unplugging the things wot need unplugging (wiring and whatnot), disconnected throttle cable, and then my mother called with an emergency. Friend whose house it is is busy tomorrow, so we'll be back on Friday (though I'm sure nobody is spamming refresh on this thread!) The first bit of fluid out of the oil drain was coolant, bright green and still looking brand new (never mind green not being the right kind for these engines) - poor thing. It didn't deserve to die like this. Next step is intercooler piping and heater hoses and AFAIK that's about it before she's out.
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Sep 16, 2015 10:07
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Sweet, looking forward to this. I've owned 2 B5 legacy wagons, one with the EJ20H and the other with the EJ20R. A mellow yellow GTB B4 wagon is still on my dream car list. Check that the silicone connectors haven't split, and I'd also replace the hard plastic vacuum piping on/to the intake manifold with new hoses. They have a tendency crack due to the heat generated under hood and that's not something you want to happen to you when your on boost.
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Sep 16, 2015 11:50
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literally a fish posted:Is there anything particularly crappy involved with emptying and recharging the A/C system? I'd obviously prefer to pull the pump off and leave it charged for the whole thing but if I can't get the pump off I don't really have a choice, and living where I do A/C is not an option. Are you taking the A/C compressor off the bracket, or taking the A/C compressor and bracket off the block? You should be able to unbolt the entire bracket from the block and take the compressor/bracket off as one piece. There's a couple of hidden and hard to get to bolts, but it absolutely beats the alternative. Here's a (WRX but most likely the same) diagram. You're taking off 5, 10, 11, and 15 as one unit. A good place to park it is behind the You don't want to open the A/C lines. It's unnecessary, and a pain in the rear end to vacuum and recharge, relative to the rest of the project. Path of least resistance is dealing with the A/C bracket. Adiabatic fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 13:57
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Don't open the AC lines. Unbolt the whole bracket from the motor. The hard to reach one you can snake a short 14mm socket with a ujoint or two in there. You may drop some of them in, get another socket, ujoint, and extension out and try again. You CAN remove the intake but I like to use it as a lift point. But yes, flip the AC pump still connected.
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Sep 16, 2015 14:22
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jamal posted:Gates timing kit, OEM water pump. Definitely not required, but it makes the job 1 person instead of a frustrating endeavor for a first-timer. More than one way to skin a cat and all. Also the one I'm thinking of doesn't wedge any metal anywhere. You bolt the gears to eachother using the threads in the face. This guy:  If you find yourself struggling with it, route the left side (your drivers side in backwards-land) and then have someone hold the two passenger side cams for you while you pull the belt onto the gears. The gears must be held in place against the resistance of the valve springs, which is where the tools come in handy. The tensioner needs to be pressed back and a pin needs to be inserted so you can have barely enough slack to get the belt routed fully. Then you pull the pin. The timing belts on these are frustrating compared to a lot of cars, but it's hard to mess up with the well-marked gears. Just need some muscle. edit: this is the way I've been doing it, but there may be an easier way that I don't know about. If anyone has a better method, please let me know! Adiabatic fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 15:29
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Jamal has a video that shows the routing for doing a DOHC by hand.
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Sep 16, 2015 15:47
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Slow is Fast posted:Jamal has a video that shows the routing for doing a DOHC by hand.  I need this video
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Sep 16, 2015 16:03
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