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UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



The Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame is voted on by a group of active and retired wrestlers, reporters, and historians. Candidates are inducted if they earn 60% of the vote in their category. Candidates are dropped from the ballot if they fail to earn 10% at any time or 50% if they've been on the ballot 15 years.

The criteria for the Hall of Fame is a combination of drawing power, being a great in-ring performer or excelling in ones field in pro wrestling, as well as having historical significance in a positive manner. To be eligible a wrestler must be 35 years old and debuted 10 years ago or been a wrestler for 15 years.

Longevity should be a prime consideration rather than a hot two or three year run, unless someone is so significant as a trend-setter or a historical figure in the business, or valuable to the industry, that they need to be included. However, just longevity without being either a long-term main eventer, a top draw and/or a top caliber in-ring performer should be seen as relatively meaningless.


The Ballot (2014 vote %)

United States/Canada
Daniel Bryan (*)
Junkyard Dog (16)
Edge (36)
Curt Hennig (23)
Ivan Koloff (48)
Brock Lesnar (56)
Randy Orton (*)
CM Punk (19)
Big Show (*)
Sgt. Slaughter (22)
Sting (33)
AJ Styles (**)
Ultimate Warrior (20)

Japan
Jun Akiyama (29)
CIMA (*)
George Gordienko (25)
Volk Han (51)#
Mashiko Kimura (23)
Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan (17)
Yuji Nagata (37)
Shinsuke Nakamura (*)
Mike & Ben Sharpe (46)
Minoru Suzuki (22)
Kiyoshi Tamura (23)
Akira Taue (16)

Mexico
Perro Aguayo Jr. (**)
Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo (16)
Cien Caras (54)#
Hector Garza (15)
Ultimo Guerrero (24)
Karloff Lagarde (48)
Blue Panther (28)
L.A. Park (24)
Huracan Ramirez (27)
El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro (36)
Vampiro (11)
Villano III (33)#
Dr. Wagner Jr. (24)

Europe
Jim Breaks (14)
Big Daddy (43)
Horst Hoffman (23)
Billy Joyce (27)
Kendo Nagasaki (15)
Jackie Pallo (27)
Rollerball Mark Rocco (32)
Johnny Saint (29)
Ricky Starr (**)
Otto Wanz (25)

Australia/Pacific Islands/Caribbean/Africa
Spyros Arion (15)
Johnny Barend (10)
Brute Bernard & Skully Murphy (12)
Carlos Colon (56)
Dominic DeNucci (21)
Killer Karl Kox (32)
Mark Lewin (38)
Mario Milano (11)

Historical
The Assassins (Joe Hamilton & Tom Renesto) (48)
Red Bastien (34)
June Byers (14)
Cowboy Bob Ellis (**)
Bob Geigel (**)
Pepper Gomez (10)
Dick Hutton (13)
Rocky Johnson (12)
Kinji Shibuya (14)
John Tolos (13)
Enrique Torres (25)
Von Brauners & Saul Weingeroff (10)
Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker (21)
Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods (24)
Ron Wright (**)

Non-Wrestlers
Bill Apter (42)
Dave Brown (13)
Jim Crockett Jr. (23)
Jim Crockett Sr. (44)
Gary Hart (33)
Jimmy Hart (36)
Howard Finkel (29)
Jerry Jarrett (44)
Larry Matysik (16)
Gorilla Monsoon (33)
Gene Okerlund (36)
Don Owen (30)
George Scott (19)
Stanley Weston (31)

* New to ballot
** Re-added after dropping off
#Will drop off if with less than 50%

List of WONHOF members
Voting trends from 2008-2014

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UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



quote:

I spoke to Zane Bresloff 3-5 times daily, and that was his department. He's the guy selling the tickets and he never thought Sting was a guy who sold tickets. It was Hulk and it was Goldberg the next year.

Daniel Bryan
May 23, 2006

GOAT


Bryan and Nakamura are the strongest of the new-to-ballot entries if you ask me. Not sure if either go in though. This is potentially the strongest the ballot will be in a long time.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Zane Bresloff should be in the Hall of Fame.

oatgan
Jan 15, 2009



yes to big daddy, no to sting

HulkaMatt
Feb 14, 2006

CHEERS, LOVE.
THE CAVALYAAAY'S HERE!


None of the new candidates are slam dunks but I think Bryan is the most interesting. Nakamura I don't think should or will get in at this stage.

It'll be really funny to see AJ get enough support to survive this year after being one & done while he was with TNA.

HulkaMatt fucked around with this message at Sep 14, 2015 around 02:08

I Before E
Jul 2, 2012

"Why yes, this is a tie with dollar signs on it.

Jealous?"

mike and ben sharpe more like BRUCE THARPE

oatgan
Jan 15, 2009



daniel bryan barely had a run on top at all in WWE and it's nearly impossible to measure his impact on business as it was a transitional period for their business model. he's got the resume in the ring, though

i think CIMA is the most interesting of the new candidates because he propped DG up on his back for an incredibly long time and almost single handedly established it as the #2 promotion in japan but i'm sure not quite quinten has actual numbers there and cares about this much more deeply than i do

oatgan fucked around with this message at Sep 14, 2015 around 02:14

HulkaMatt
Feb 14, 2006

CHEERS, LOVE.
THE CAVALYAAAY'S HERE!


He's interesting because if Bryan gets in it's going to be due to the fact that in the second half of the last decade he was considered the best in the world. It's not unheard of to go in based on workrate, but it doesn't happen often.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Edge is the strongest US candidate and I don't think it's close at this point.

Abrasive Obelisk
May 2, 2013

I joined th
ROVPACK IN THE HOOUUUUSE!

he still knows...


MassRafTer posted:

Edge is the strongest US candidate and I don't think it's close at this point.

With Batista as a solid-

Wait, why Edge over Batista?

I Before E
Jul 2, 2012

"Why yes, this is a tie with dollar signs on it.

Jealous?"

Abrasive Obelisk posted:

Wait, why Edge over Batista?

Edge was a more consistent worker.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Abrasive Obelisk posted:

With Batista as a solid-

Wait, why Edge over Batista?

Better worker, while not the draw Batista was at his peak was a very consistent house show draw with some good PPVs thrown in. I am a huge Batista fan but his time as a big draw was short and while he's underrated in the ring he'd never ever get in as a worker.

Abrasive Obelisk
May 2, 2013

I joined th
ROVPACK IN THE HOOUUUUSE!

he still knows...


MassRafTer posted:

Better worker, while not the draw Batista was at his peak was a very consistent house show draw with some good PPVs thrown in. I am a huge Batista fan but his time as a big draw was short and while he's underrated in the ring he'd never ever get in as a worker.

I Before E posted:

Edge was a more consistent worker.

Sure, but would Batista's drawing power + work + influence beyond wrestling help his case?

oatgan
Jan 15, 2009



influence beyond wrestling is meaningless unless you're brock lesnar

also batista has no influence beyond wrestling

Daniel Bryan
May 23, 2006

GOAT


HulkaMatt posted:

He's interesting because if Bryan gets in it's going to be due to the fact that in the second half of the last decade he was considered the best in the world. It's not unheard of to go in based on workrate, but it doesn't happen often.

Which is one of the dumber things about this hall of fame really. Drawing is an aspect of candidacy, not the deciding factor but seems to be so heavily weighed in the eyes of voters. Probably because it can be objective. But the era we're in now, it's more subjective than ever as to what is the draw. Especially in WWE.

Great draws, but bad workers get in. Not great draws, but great workers struggle to. They shouldn't based on the criteria, but they do. Because subjectivity.

Bryan has net positives in the influence and draw categories, but his strength and what ultimately will get him in is his work. If you looked at his working resume and there were no other aspects of candidacy, he's a slam dunk and probably the strongest US candidate.

Daniel Bryan fucked around with this message at Sep 14, 2015 around 02:57

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Abrasive Obelisk posted:

Sure, but would Batista's drawing power + work + influence beyond wrestling help his case?

Influence beyond wrestling isn't really a consideration. It might be for some people but Dave shoots it down when it comes up in the Big Daddy case. Batista's drawing power helps but his work doesn't really help his case. He's better than a Hogan or Konnan but he's below most guys in the Hall. Edge on the other hand is in the upper tier when it comes to match quality. I don't put a lot of stock in the number of four star matches a guy (this is frequently cited in Edge's case) but I think his body of work is really impressive.

STONE COLD 64
Oct 20, 2006

austin 3:16 says shut up. shut hte fuck up. where is my beer. i need hel

edge winning the belt brought them to their first 4.+ rating in over 4 years, a number they'd hit only one more time with a Commercial Free Raw. He was probably cena's best drawing non-wrestlemania opponent when they feuded.

EugeneJ
Feb 5, 2012


Candidates sorted by ****+ matches

United States/Canada

AJ Styles - 55
Edge - 47
Daniel Bryan - 35
Randy Orton - 35
CM Punk - 21
Sting - 16
Brock Lesnar - 14
Big Show - 6
Curt Hennig - 5
Ultimate Warrior - 2
Junkyard Dog - 1
Sgt. Slaughter - 0
Ivan Koloff - 0

Japan

Akira Taue - 81
Jun Akiyama - 58
Shinsuke Nakamura - 34
Yuji Nagata - 18
Hiroyoshi Tenzan - 15
Minoru Suzuki - 14
Satoshi Kojima - 14
CIMA - 6
George Gordienko - 0
Volk Han - 0
Mashiko Kimura - 0
Kiyoshi Tamura - 0
Ben Sharpe - 0
Mike Sharpe - 0

Daniel Bryan
May 23, 2006

GOAT


Here's an article on Edge done last year: http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-...qedgeq-copeland

But it omits drawing. Which is probably what his candidacy hinges on, since apparently voters don't see him as strong enough otherwise. Someone is going to have to dig and present the numbers before they matter. Saying he popped house shows or a rating here and there doesn't mean much.

oatgan
Jan 15, 2009



Daniel Bryan posted:

Here's an article on Edge done last year: http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-...qedgeq-copeland

But it omits drawing. Which is probably what his candidacy hinges on, since apparently voters don't see him as strong enough otherwise. Someone is going to have to dig and present them before it matters.

iirc it's wrestlers that overwhelmingly vote for edge

EugeneJ posted:

Candidates sorted by ****+ matches

United States/Canada

AJ Styles - 55
Edge - 47
Daniel Bryan - 35
Randy Orton - 35
CM Punk - 21
Sting - 16
Brock Lesnar - 14
Big Show - 6
Curt Hennig - 5
Ultimate Warrior - 2
Junkyard Dog - 1
Sgt. Slaughter - 0
Ivan Koloff - 0

Japan

Akira Taue - 81
Jun Akiyama - 58
Shinsuke Nakamura - 34
Yuji Nagata - 18
Hiroyoshi Tenzan - 15
Minoru Suzuki - 14
Satoshi Kojima - 14
CIMA - 6
George Gordienko - 0
Volk Han - 0
Mashiko Kimura - 0
Kiyoshi Tamura - 0
Ben Sharpe - 0
Mike Sharpe - 0
man this list is barely complete

Memento
Aug 25, 2009




Clapping Larry

So does Brock go in this year? I'm of two minds. He had the long run with the belt and some crazy matches, but he also spent a lot of time off TV for that run. And if you consider that this Wrestlemania, with him advertised as headlining, was the first WM to lose money, then maybe the drawing argument doesn't hold water either.

Does the Network muddy the waters in that regard? Does the fact that UFC 100 is still (I think) the record number of UFC PPV buys count at all? Questions I am asking because this is the first year that I've been an Observer subscriber and actively following it.

Daniel Bryan
May 23, 2006

GOAT


oatgan posted:

iirc it's wrestlers that overwhelmingly vote for edge

man this list is barely complete

I think you're right, so it's reporters and historians who are most likely to read an article and have their mind changed about a candidate. The article I posted isn't very convincing.

UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



Star ratings are useless for comparing between eras and arguably promotions but not the worst thing for something like Edge vs. Orton.


If you want an estimate of how many voters get their history from WWE here's the vote for Moolah from 2008 to 2014.


There is absolutely no case for Moolah. She had meaningless longevity, drew no major gates, and had a hugely negative influence on style of women's wrestling. Reporters and historians are vocally opposed. She's a terrible candidate even before you consider the monstrous treatment of her roster.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


oatgan posted:

iirc it's wrestlers that overwhelmingly vote for edge

man this list is barely complete

But it is definitive proof what trash workers Volk Han and the Sharpes were.

Daniel Bryan
May 23, 2006

GOAT


Memento posted:

So does Brock go in this year? I'm of two minds. He had the long run with the belt and some crazy matches, but he also spent a lot of time off TV for that run. And if you consider that this Wrestlemania, with him advertised as headlining, was the first WM to lose money, then maybe the drawing argument doesn't hold water either.

Does the Network muddy the waters in that regard? Does the fact that UFC 100 is still (I think) the record number of UFC PPV buys count at all? Questions I am asking because this is the first year that I've been an Observer subscriber and actively following it.

His candidacy primarily hinges on whether or not you count UFC. Which is kind of a slippery slope if you do. I'm going to guess not this year because he's probably a "wait and see" in a lot of voters eyes.

achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

BROTHER I WANT YOU TO JOIN THE DSA AND SUBSCRIBE TO THE AWARD WINNING WWE NETWORK FOR ONLY $9.99 A MONTH


Daniel Bryan posted:

Which is one of the dumber things about this hall of fame really. Drawing is an aspect of candidacy, not the deciding factor but seems to be so heavily weighed in the eyes of voters. Probably because it can be objective. But the era we're in now, it's more subjective than ever as to what is the draw. Especially in WWE.

Great draws, but bad workers get in. Not great draws, but great workers struggle to. They shouldn't based on the criteria, but they do. Because subjectivity.

Bryan has net positives in the influence and draw categories, but his strength and what ultimately will get him in is his work. If you looked at his working resume and there were no other aspects of candidacy, he's a slam dunk and probably the strongest US candidate.
Still better than the MLB HOF which is a bunch of loser old baby boomers blinded by their nostalgia googles

And also better than the NFL HOF because they are never going to put Hines Ward in when he's eligible

Curious though, what has kept Minoru Suzuki from getting in?

EugeneJ
Feb 5, 2012


Why doesn't Dave just start a separate MMA Hall of Fame - there would only be like 10 guys in it at this point anyways

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Edge stinks. I hate his finisher so he shouldn't get in imo

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters


I know it's not *just* supposed to be drawing power, but the idea that Edge is questionable as a draw next to other inductees (Angle, Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, Jericho) seems weird to me. I know that all of those people worked outside of the WWE, and Angle was (briefly) a draw on top at TNA. I assume Mysterio is/was a draw in Mexico, but did any of the other three really work on top/in money drawing angles outside of WWE? I'd give the edge to all of them (except maybe Jericho) in terms of in-ring performance at their peaks, but Edge is still miles ahead of Sting or Warrior or whatever other borderline guy of years past.

Is there a limited number of votes you can turn in each year? I'm kind of surprised Punk got as low as he did, though I could probably be convinced he's not deserving. Bryan seems to be sort of the more perfect example of the Punk candidacy, in that you could argue they were never a long-term main event draw in WWE, but they had a big headlining body of work in the indies where they drew about as much money as any has been able to demonstrably draw in that setting, then performed about as well as anyone can do in the modern WWE system, all while performing at a high quality level. Bryan had less time on top in WWE, but his indie work blows away Punk's in terms of breadth and depth.

Fauxhawk Express
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake

achillesforever6 posted:

Curious though, what has kept Minoru Suzuki from getting in?

He did very little particularly noteworthy stuff in pro wrestling until 2003.

UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



Edge does not have one particularly strong group of supporters.

Brock's support is ridiculously slanted.
Historians/Active/Retired/Reporters
#2/21/24/1

e: transposed historians and reporters. Point stands

UltimoDragonQuest fucked around with this message at Sep 14, 2015 around 03:27

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Daniel Bryan posted:

Which is one of the dumber things about this hall of fame really. Drawing is an aspect of candidacy, not the deciding factor but seems to be so heavily weighed in the eyes of voters. Probably because it can be objective. But the era we're in now, it's more subjective than ever as to what is the draw. Especially in WWE.

Great draws, but bad workers get in. Not great draws, but great workers struggle to. They shouldn't based on the criteria, but they do. Because subjectivity.

Bryan has net positives in the influence and draw categories, but his strength and what ultimately will get him in is his work. If you looked at his working resume and there were no other aspects of candidacy, he's a slam dunk and probably the strongest US candidate.

For a bad worker to get in they have to be a historic level draw. There's probably as many workrate candidates in as drawing.

Edge & Christian posted:

I know it's not *just* supposed to be drawing power, but the idea that Edge is questionable as a draw next to other inductees (Angle, Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, Jericho) seems weird to me. I know that all of those people worked outside of the WWE, and Angle was (briefly) a draw on top at TNA. I assume Mysterio is/was a draw in Mexico, but did any of the other three really work on top/in money drawing angles outside of WWE? I'd give the edge to all of them (except maybe Jericho) in terms of in-ring performance at their peaks, but Edge is still miles ahead of Sting or Warrior or whatever other borderline guy of years past.

Is there a limited number of votes you can turn in each year? I'm kind of surprised Punk got as low as he did, though I could probably be convinced he's not deserving. Bryan seems to be sort of the more perfect example of the Punk candidacy, in that you could argue they were never a long-term main event draw in WWE, but they had a big headlining body of work in the indies where they drew about as much money as any has been able to demonstrably draw in that setting, then performed about as well as anyone can do in the modern WWE system, all while performing at a high quality level. Bryan had less time on top in WWE, but his indie work blows away Punk's in terms of breadth and depth.

Rey Mysterio almost single handedly made WWE a dominant force in Mexico, and then when his career was derailed by injuries WWE's fortunes in Mexico were derailed. Benoit headlined one of the biggest WMs of all time (debatable who drew that number) but is pure workrate. Jericho is mostly workrate. Angle got in before he was ever in TNA and I doubt anyone would consider that. Angle has some decent drawing chops but his use as a comedy guy hurt that later on. Eddy was a pretty poor draw.

oatgan
Jan 15, 2009



it's also thought by many that angle went in way too early

UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



Edge & Christian posted:

I know it's not *just* supposed to be drawing power, but the idea that Edge is questionable as a draw next to other inductees (Angle, Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, Jericho) seems weird to me.
It's not that Edge is less of a draw. It's that he's less of a wrestler and needs to boost his case by proving he's a draw. I would argue Edge was a much better promo than most of them but that's harder to quantify.

The cruiserweights also have the world traveler cred that Edge missed out on. This has a secondary effect of increasing the number of guys you worked who might vouch for you, which is how Angle got in after 5 years in the business. Dave says wrestlers love Angle. The very very biggest stars and guys who have wrestled everybody put Angle in their top 5.

Lloyd Boner
Oct 11, 2009

Yes officer, my name is Victoria Sonnen...berg

Edge was a better wrestler than Kurt Angle and Jericho imo. Dude definitely deserves to be in.

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters


Just because this sort of thing entertains me, I am cross-checking Observer Awards and the HOF.

Bryan won "Most Outstanding Wrestler" five times in a row. Out of the eleven people who won1986-2005, they're all in the HOF aside from Samoa Joe (2005) and Koji Kanemoto (1999). As someone who paid no attention to Japan at the time, who is that?
Bryan won "Best Technical Wrestler" NINE times in a row, from 2005-2013, finally getting unseated by Zack Sabre Jr last year. Out of the sixteen people who won that 1980-2004, the only ones not in are Dean Malenko and a couple more late 1990s Japanese guys I'm only passingly familiar with (Minoru Tanaka, Otani)

So yeah, it seems like Bryan should get in based on his work, but also who are these other fellows? What happened to them? I know Otani is still around, but not with New Japan?

Oh right also, Edge's WON accolades:

Best Tag Team (2000)
Match of the Year (in a tag match with Angle/Benoit/Mysterio, 2002)
Worst Match of the Year (Edge/HHH/Koslov, 2008)
Worst Feud of the Year (Edge vs. Kane, 2010)

Also I'm pretty sure I watched some Minoru Tanaka matches on YouTube or something, got confused that he wasn't Masato Tanaka, and overwrote that memory as being a young Tanahashi.

Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at Sep 14, 2015 around 03:38

oatgan
Jan 15, 2009



a bunch of cruiserweights who bounced in the mid-00's when NJPW was horribly run

Minoru Tanaka is still really good and props up absolutely boring Wrestle-1 cards (like TNA's Bound For Glory). Otani is running Zero1 I think but i don't know the last time i saw him wrestle

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


I wonder if the Mexico category will actually manage to induct a guy out of the like 10 that deserve to be in this year

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Fauxhawk Express
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake

Ohtani bulked up to heavyweight, left NJPW, and joined Z1 in 2001. I really can't think of any other workers who peaked as high as he did so early in his career. He was still really fun long afterwards, but his '90s stuff was just phenomenal.

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