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rules posted:When making a thread asking for advice, please include: your age, income, assets, debts, financial goals, and anything else that might relate to your situation.
So after 12 years of higher education, I need to figure out how it’s all worth. It’s been difficult because of my unique set of qualifications, including a BS in Computer Engineering, an MD, and finally an MS in Biomedical Engineering. I’m finally getting a job. It’s a perfect fit for me in a niche where all my degrees and research experience will be valuable. I’m the only candidate for the position, and I’m not seeking other offers. The CMO of this small R+D division, the hiring manager, and myself seem to all be on the same page, but HR has been a huge hassle for everyone, including myself with their lowball offers. HR manages the 18k employees of a hospital network and doesn’t share the vision of this very small division or department that employs a handful of engineers. The hiring manager initially wrote a job description listing MD and MS as preferred credentials, and based on this HR offered me 50k because [beep boop] that is what a first-year resident makes. This incorrect for reasons that should be obvious (residency is continued training rather than a full-on job, and residents work for peanuts in exchange for a huge payoff later). The hiring manager then went and found a job description for an advanced position that he had available that he knew would be valued higer, though it does not mention MD as a requirement. With this, HR offered me 80k, and came back at 85k after countering. For a bit of context, the average starting salary for the most recent grads from my BS program was 82k. The manager agrees that this is a bit low, and has suggested I help him by finding some job postings from other companies looking for someone with an MD and MS in engineering, with an associated starting salary range. He says with this data, he can write a third job description and easily get a better offer from HR. The trouble is, this seems to be a very rare combination, and it’s very difficult to find such postings. I’ve tried searching the usual websites like glassdoor and monster. I know several other engineers from med school, but they all went to residency with plans to practice medicine. So I’d really appreciate any advice in finding data on this, or a point to anywhere else I should ask. If I don’t find any this week, I think I’ll accept the current offer and continue to look. Both the manager and recruiter have assured me that I can be promoted to a different title later on with no drawback related to my salary before promotion. Though, obviously I would like to be valued appropriately from the start if this is possible. I can coast for another month or so on savings, but I have no income at the moment and will need to start earning. Thanks in advance for any help.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:37
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 09:10 |
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Are you licensed to practice medicine then? I guess I'm confused as to why you would have an MD, then go on to pursue an engineering degree that earns you 1/3 of what you could make using your MD. If the position requires and MD, then it seems like it should at least pay market value for one. The fact that they are offering $85k when I thought it would be at least $100k more than that means that I must be missing something. Depending on where you live, $85k seems like a decent starting salary for an Bio. Eng. On the other hand, it's really low for what I'd expect from a position requiring an MD. I think you're anchored to the $85k figure, so I wouldn't expect to negotiate much higher than that.
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Sep 16, 2015 01:28
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If the company cared about the MD, they would pay accordingly and the hiring manager would do his own legwork on it. Obviously they don't value it. Your lack of residency experience is hugely significant, you can't just blow it off as "residents work for cheap in exchange for more money later". Did you do an internship at least?
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Sep 16, 2015 02:04
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oRenj9 posted:Are you licensed to practice medicine then? I guess I'm confused as to why you would have an MD, then go on to pursue an engineering degree that earns you 1/3 of what you could make using your MD. If the position requires and MD, then it seems like it should at least pay market value for one. The fact that they are offering $85k when I thought it would be at least $100k more than that means that I must be missing something. Market value for an MD is tricky. An MD who hasn't done internship literally can't practice medicine in the US (and modern medicine doesn't hire people who haven't completed a full residency), and a lot of the knowledge that companies hire doctors for comes from the experience of internship/residency. So if you're hiring a licensed doctor, you have to compete with market rate for a doctor practicing medicine. But if you're hiring a med school graduate who can't practice medicine you can offer a lot less because they can't say "screw you, I'm just going to go work as a doctor". Also, the difference between what you learn in med school (theory) and what you learn as an intern/resident (real-world decision-making / practice) is huge, similar to learning about Turing machines and NP completeness vs being sat in front of a computer and asked to write code. It sounds like the company doesn't care about the MD or the cost OP put into it, so they're offering him a bio-engineering salary. It's not totally fair, OP does have more knowledge about medicine than a usual bio-engineer, and it sounds like that would be useful for this job, but if they can get away with paying less (because OP has no other offers, can't ditch for straight medicine, and would have similar offers from other engineering jobs), they'll probably just pay less. If you want to know your value, apply to many places and have them bid against each other. Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.
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Sep 16, 2015 03:36
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oRenj9 posted:Are you licensed to practice medicine then? I guess I'm confused as to why you would have an MD, then go on to pursue an engineering degree that earns you 1/3 of what you could make using your MD. If the position requires and MD, then it seems like it should at least pay market value for one. The fact that they are offering $85k when I thought it would be at least $100k more than that means that I must be missing something. I didn't get into residency. I went all-in for surgery but didn't have the stats for it. You might think that I made stupid or stubborn decisions regarding that, but it doesn't really matter at this point. quote:Depending on where you live, $85k seems like a decent starting salary for an Bio. Eng. On the other hand, it's really low for what I'd expect from a position requiring an MD. I think you're anchored to the $85k figure, so I wouldn't expect to negotiate much higher than that. HR isn't going to budge at all from 85k, that's not what I'm going for. If I can find data to support the hiring manager in writing and valuing a third job description, HR will start over and come up with a new offer completely unrelated to previously offered numbers. slap me silly posted:If the company cared about the MD, they would pay accordingly and the hiring manager would do his own legwork on it. Obviously they don't value it. There isn't a monolithic entity that is "the company". There is the manager and the CMO, who very clearly value me as they've gotten me two job offers now with having never met me. I had a very brief phone conversation with the CMO because I insisted on it, and at that point hadn't even exchanged emails with the manager. Then, there is HR and the compensation executives who look at the job description and come up with the numbers. The people who want me have absolutely no input to that process except for the job description. They tried putting MD in the first time around and HR dropped the ball. quote:Your lack of residency experience is hugely significant, you can't just blow it off as "residents work for cheap in exchange for more money later". Did you do an internship at least? This is true--I'm not expecting to make anything close to what someone would make after completing a residency and I'm not blowing anything off. However... "residents work for cheap in exchange for more money later" is also completely true. It's not even controversial. Resident pay is nothing more than a stipend to get you through training. Amara: I think I addressed your first paragraph in the replies above. Amara posted:If you want to know your value, apply to many places and have them bid against each other. Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it. Yes, ultimately this is probably what I'm going to have to do over the next year.
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Sep 16, 2015 22:30
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Would you be able to apply for a non-surgery residency next year or something that is more likely to work out? Do you do programming? Is programming involved in this job?
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Sep 16, 2015 23:46
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There appear to be at least a few MD/MS programs for bioengineering, so it's not unheard of, but I couldn't find any jobs advertising for that particular combo. It does seem, though obviously i'm not an authority, like if you don't go the MD route all the way through, you're more closely valued at a regular biomedical engineering salary. https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/md-dual-degree-programs
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Sep 16, 2015 23:56
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At the risk of sounding slightly harsh: you are not worth anything; what you do is what is worth something. So, what are you going to do for this company? How much value for that company will your services create? That should be the basis of your salary negotiations. If you're capable working the the profession your MD was supposed to train you for, then your opportunity cost can anchor your salary negotiations as well.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:16
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Droo posted:Would you be able to apply for a non-surgery residency next year or something that is more likely to work out? That would be pretty difficult at this point. Not only will the odds be so much worse for having been out of med school so long, but I'd have no obvious way to get letters of rec for a different specialty. Also, the reason I didn't pursue other specialties from the beginning is that I'd rather do engineering anyway. quote:Do you do programming? Is programming involved in this job? Yes, for sure. I went through a really good computer engineering program, and I anticipate a fair bit of coding involved in the job. Xandu posted:There appear to be at least a few MD/MS programs for bioengineering, so it's not unheard of, but I couldn't find any jobs advertising for that particular combo. Thanks, this seems to be a good lead. quote:It does seem, though obviously i'm not an authority, like if you don't go the MD route all the way through, you're more closely valued at a regular biomedical engineering salary. I agree--I expect to make closer to a bioengineer than a practicing physician. KernelSlanders posted:At the risk of sounding slightly harsh: you are not worth anything; what you do is what is worth something. So, what are you going to do for this company? How much value for that company will your services create? It's a small office with about 5 engineers, and there doesn't seem to really be a division of labor. One person can have their hands on all aspects of a project. So, one day I may be writing code, and another day I may be using power tools. I will probably have the best computer/electronics background in the office, and I'll be the only one with a significant medical background. Other engineers will consult me for my medical knowledge and experience. quote:That should be the basis of your salary negotiations. If you're capable working the the profession your MD was supposed to train you for, then your opportunity cost can anchor your salary negotiations as well. There isn't really any negotiating to be done in the traditional sense. I just need to find some comparable postings.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:09
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how_much_i_worth posted:their hands on all aspects of a project. So, one day I may be writing code, and another day I may be using power tools. I will probably have the best computer/electronics background in the office, and I'll be the only one with a significant medical background. Other engineers will consult me for my medical knowledge and experience. Medical knowledge and experience insufficient to actually practice medicine. Uhh.... yeah. Call me worried.
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Sep 22, 2015 15:05
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it sounds like you're trying to get salary based on it being hard to find someone with your qualifications, but they don't feel like the extra qualifications are pertinent to the job. also its mostly irrelevant that one day you might be coding and another day you're doing hardware. that doesn't make you worth 2 people unless you are working 16 hour days. you're worth what you can get. you might be a unicorn in terms of qualifications but the jobs you're looking for also seem pretty sparse, so unless you can sit down and be like well company B is offering me X money, I don't see them budging on this one. I'd take the job and then keep an eye out for similar positions when they do pop up rather than draw this one out.
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Sep 25, 2015 16:37
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How long has it taken you to get this many offers? Just try negotiating them to 100k or 100k within 1-2 years, then look for employment elsewhere.
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Sep 26, 2015 23:10
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 09:10 |
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Have you actually held a job at any point? You sound like a career student.
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Oct 1, 2015 20:53
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