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Dr. Gene Dango MD
May 20, 2010

Fuck them other cats I'm running with my own wolfpack

Keep fronting like youse a thug and get ya dome pushed back

DoctorWhat posted:

On no goddamn planet is 3+4 better than 1+2, because after the 5-minute mark 4 is terrible and makes 3 worse in retrospect. 1 and 2 may not be a perfect execution of the two-parter mandate but they're certainly the more enjoyable 90 minutes.
In my opinion 4 is not terrible, but I agree with you it does put a damper on 3. 1+2 introduced this hybrid nonsense so that makes it the clear looser for me, even if some of those Davros scenes are great. To each their own I suppose.

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MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

DoctorWhat posted:

On no goddamn planet is 3+4 better than 1+2, because after the 5-minute mark 4 is terrible and makes 3 worse in retrospect. 1 and 2 may not be a perfect execution of the two-parter mandate but they're certainly the more enjoyable 90 minutes.

Except this one and I'll fight you I will :argh:

4 was flawed, but it was flawed in less fundamental ways than 1+2.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Clouseau posted:

You should read RTD's Writer's Tale. To my recollection, a large part of it is him panicking over missed deadlines.

That's RTD though, he's the nadir of this phenomenon

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Except this one and I'll fight you I will :argh:

4 was flawed, but it was flawed in less fundamental ways than 1+2.

This. 4 wasn't the best conclusion, but it was satisfying and had some wonderful moments.

1+2 would have worked better if each had an extra 15 minutes of running time. Not to add any more content, but just to let the episodes breathe a little and allow us to soak up the plot. 3+4 had less going on, but that worked in their favor.

Stabbatical
Sep 15, 2011

HD DAD posted:

This. 4 wasn't the best conclusion, but it was satisfying and had some wonderful moments.

1+2 would have worked better if each had an extra 15 minutes of running time. Not to add any more content, but just to let the episodes breathe a little and allow us to soak up the plot. 3+4 had less going on, but that worked in their favor.

I'd have cut the plane stuff. It was time-filling bollocks.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Gaz-L posted:

Really? That and the misdirect of the Doctor and Mel having to find a fill-in for the Earth entry are my favourite parts. (You're meant to think Mel's going to perform, because if anyone in thread doesn't know, Bonnie is an ex-musical theatre star,.)

Fair enough. It didn't really work for me.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

Stabbatical posted:

I'd have cut the plane stuff. It was time-filling bollocks.

Yeah, it was bad. Have Missy take over Coal Hill as the new headmaster, hijinks ensue, and boom you have Clara and Missy meeting right off the bat.

Picklepuss
Jul 12, 2002

HD DAD posted:

Yeah, it was bad. Have Missy take over Coal Hill as the new headmaster, hijinks ensue, and boom you have Clara and Missy meeting right off the bat.
Complete with tissue-compressed little Ian Chesterton in her desk.

Not like being shrunk has stopped Ian before.

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

That's RTD though, he's the nadir of this phenomenon

"Ah, balls, can't finish this episode, gonna go down Canal Street instead".

And then he cranks out Midnight in like, four days, while full of cold, and it's one of the best Doctor Who episodes of the revival.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

Picklepuss posted:

Complete with tissue-compressed little Ian Chesterton in her desk.

Not like being shrunk has stopped Ian before.

But how will he escape without tiny :flame: Hartnell?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

After The War posted:

But how will he escape without tiny :flame: Hartnell?

Karate chop to the shoulder of a goon with his back turned, obviously!

Cliff Racer
Mar 24, 2007

by Lowtax

After The War posted:

But how will he escape without tiny :flame: Hartnell?

Remember, Ian killed what was basically a planet-controlling god by throwing a rock at it. I'm sure he could take care of a fifty foot tall Time Lord without breaking a sweat.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

FreezingInferno posted:

Seven with Jo? Oh man, I think I need to hear that. Was it any good?

Quoting this because I got your Secret Santa present today! Thank you very much!

I already own The Hand of Fear, so I'm going to re-gift it to my best friend whose five year old son is already into the show and loved The Ark in Space. What's the worst that could happen?

But I do NOT own The Sun Makers and was actually going to buy it tomorrow! More Tom Baker! More I say!

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

CobiWann posted:

More Tom Baker! More I say!

And now you know how generations of Doctor Who fans feel ALL the time! :allears:

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

CobiWann posted:


More Tom Baker! More I say!

Thread motto here.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

Bicyclops posted:

Thread motto here.

I think the Brig has had enough

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Rhyno posted:

I think the Brig has had enough



He is surprising him with his tab from the local pub.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

Jerusalem posted:

And now you know how generations of Doctor Who fans feel ALL the time! :allears:

Seriously, as I approach middle age there are two things I kick myself for all the time. One of them is wishing I had watched more classic Who in my younger days.

FreezingInferno
Jul 15, 2010

THERE.
WILL.
BE.
NO.
BATTLE.
HERE!

CobiWann posted:

Quoting this because I got your Secret Santa present today! Thank you very much!

I already own The Hand of Fear, so I'm going to re-gift it to my best friend whose five year old son is already into the show and loved The Ark in Space. What's the worst that could happen?

But I do NOT own The Sun Makers and was actually going to buy it tomorrow! More Tom Baker! More I say!

Hooray! That got there pretty quick. This is amusing because originally I got Planet Of Evil and The Hand Of Fear, and then like an hour later I see a post from you all like "gee the Planet of Evil DVD features are interesting" and I was like SHITSHITSHITCANCELCANCELCANCEL

I took a chance on Hand of Fear since I didn't think it was one many people really owned, but hey! I indirectly am bringing the joy of Tom Baker to a little kid! That's sweet. Enjoy the Sun Makers, it's a good one.

Pocky In My Pocket
Jan 27, 2005

Giant robots shouldn't fight!






Prisoners of the Sun has the most wooden acting I've ever heard

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

FreezingInferno posted:

I took a chance on Hand of Fear since I didn't think it was one many people really owned, but hey! I indirectly am bringing the joy of Tom Baker to a little kid! That's sweet. Enjoy the Sun Makers, it's a good one.
People might as its Sarah Jane's last one in the classic series and she is the most recognizable "old" companion.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

bobkatt013 posted:

People might as its Sarah Jane's last one in the classic series and she is the most recognizable "old" companion.

Also Eldrad. Who simply must live.

EDIT - Back-to-back this with Robots of Death for the Bob and Phil Polite Threat Extravaganza.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Jerusalem posted:

Karate chop to the shoulder of a goon with his back turned, obviously!

Just be careful in case they're a myrka. Karate is ineffective against them.

After The War posted:

Also Eldrad. Who simply must live.

"And now, Doctor, I have an audience with my king. KING?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.

Rhyno posted:

I think the Brig has had enough



This picture never gets old.

"He's behind me. He's behind me, isn't he? Bloody hell."

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Chokes McGee posted:

This picture never gets old.

"He's behind me. He's behind me, isn't he? Bloody hell."

Why can't he change into Pertwee

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: A nasty, squalid little story to be avoided.

Long Synopsis: The 5th Doctor rushes Peri and Erimem to the planet Talderun to escape a run-in with the authorities. Cannibals, nudity, attempted rape, and torture all contribute to a bad story with a lovely, needlessly bleak atmosphere and a poor resolution.

What's Good:
  • The voice of the Pakhar character isn't a high pitched squeak like the last time one of them appeared in a story. There you go. That's the good thing about this story. THE good thing.

What's Not:

  • The cynicism. This is, frankly, a disgusting story. It seems to be going for a cynical Caves of Androzani type atmosphere but forgets that arguably the strongest element of that story was the throughline of the Doctor refusing to accept Peri's doom and fighting every step of the way to save her - and succeeding! There are no redemptive elements to this story, every character outside of the main cast are horrible, nasty, miserable little shits who cynically exploit those around them for their own benefit. Everybody is purely out for their own gain, and any character who demonstrates even a modicum of empathy or selflessness is either revealed to be faking or are quickly eliminated while the nasty characters goad and taunt them for being so "weak". One character who appears to be a reluctant hero, saving Peri from her fate as a sacrifice, later reveals in a log that he only did so to use her as a distraction to achieve his own selfish goals. He then suffers his own horrific fate, with Peri mourning him none the wiser that he fully intended to throw her to the wolves.

  • Sex and violence. I'm always torn when it comes to this type of thing in Doctor Who - I'd like to think there isn't ANY theme that can't be explored in an interesting way by a good writer. But the writing here is not good, and the overabundance of violence coupled with the extraordinarily distasteful sexual elements feel horribly out of place, present purely for their shock value. Outside of the enormous amounts of violence - an entire fleet is wiped out, witches tear apart the bodies of the survivors and eat them alive, the Doctor literally gets his head torn off - there is a lot of disturbing sexual content. Peri is captured by the "Witches" of Talderun and drugged in preparation to be a sacrifice to their God - this apparently involves her being stripped naked and left to bathe in oils while being watched by a hidden field researcher. He then rescues her and snaps her out of her stupor, leading to very contrived dialogue about her nudity for seemingly no reason beyond providing mild titillation. Worse than that though is the cliffhanger ending to an episode where the military commander suddenly out of nowhere decides he is going to rape Erimem.... just because! This cliffhanger is "resolved" with a lengthy sequence where it is suggested that he did just that and is utterly unapologetic, and it is only after several uncomfortable minutes of this hanging in the air that we learn the "good news" that he didn't rape her, just beat the utter poo poo out of her when she fought back. This has no further bearing on the story at all. None. It is, again, seemingly just there for the shock value. About the only good thing I can say is that despite the nudity and the attempted rape, I at least never got the sense that I was reading somebody's stealth "erotic" fanfiction - when the best thing I can say about a story is "At least it wasn't The Creed of Kromon" that's hardly high praise.

  • Poor writing, characters & resolution. The story is nonsensical, the characters are inconsistent, and the resolution resolves nothing. The basic story is that in the galactic region of Nekromanteia is the planet of Talderun, where a massive energy converter has provided the "God" Shara with eternal life. A Corporate CEO has sent his fleet to conquer Talderun to get the information necessary to build his own converter and gain eternal life himself. The witches who serve the God protect the planet ferociously and provide sacrifices to their God. But the events of the story constantly contradict themselves, with characters taking actions that make no sense. The CEO is working for a mysterious male figure who is eventually revealed to be the head Witch using a voice modulator.... except she turns it off halfway through their conversation and he was apparently fully aware the entire time who she was... so why the hell was this present at all other than to "trick" the listener? To what end? Also why are they working together, she apparently needs sacrifices but surely there were easier ways to get them than having to fight a giant space battle? At first I thought it was because the CEO was planning to betray her (which would be in character) but things he says indicate that he genuinely thought they were on the same side and he was working in good faith. The CEO's ultimate fate comes out of nowhere, not out of some neat twist but just to further sink home the general theme of everybody being selfish, self-absorbed assholes. Commander Harlon, the guy who tried to RAPE Erimem, not only escapes with his life but is rewarded, with the suggestion he is going to become the most powerful man in the galaxy after cynically abusing and taking advantage of everybody without the slightest sense of remorse. The Doctor just straight up walks into the coven of witches despite knowing they're aggressively territorial cannibals, and proceeds to get his head torn from his head - no joke, no twist, he literally dies by walking stupidly into a deathtrap, and is only returned to life by the actions of the "God" when everything goes wrong. There's also a running thing through the first 2/3rds of the story about the Doctor being the "Anti-God", the devil of the witches' religion.... except this goes absolutely nowhere and has zero bearing on the story, and just gets entirely forgotten about. The resolution when it comes makes no sense, the head witch (with her horribly overbearing voice) has a breakdown moment where I think we're supposed to feel sympathy for her (she's a genocidal cannibal!) because she's been cheated out of her own promise of eternal life.... only Shara already told the Doctor his eternal life was meant to be just that - eternal - and carefully balanced so that he and only he could be "God" and she knew that, and in fact she herself was trying to pull the same scam on the CEO. Shara's death puts the entire universe at risk and his replacement is so unbelievably telegraphed that the moment lacks any impact.... but then everybody just leaves. So were the sacrifices ever necessary? Who will guard the incredibly dangerous energy converter now? What is to stop anybody from finding it, taking the catalyst and destroying the universe all over again? The Commander says he has no intention of coming back for it, but Rom's colleagues were not only fully aware of what he was doing/what he was after, but he says numerous times before his death that if he dies his colleagues will come looking for him. It's like the main cast was so sick of this story they just wanted to get the hell out of there and put the whole horrible affair behind them... and I don't really blame them.

Final Thoughts:

Nekromanteia is awful. It's really, really bad. It isn't fetishistic at least, or at least I didn't think so, but it features very uncomfortable sexual content that feels completely out of place for the world of Doctor Who. Its attempts to be "adult" and "mature" fall flat and feel jammed in to the story to absolutely no benefit. The characters are all terrible, nasty people who do horrible things without a second thought, with some of them being richly rewarded for doing just that. The story is half-baked and not thought through at all, with multiple elements going nowhere, being forgotten or just casually dismissed. The whole thing feels nasty and squalid, a lovely little "dark" story that more than anything made me embarrassed to be listening (the Peri bathing in oils scene) or very uncomfortable (the Erimem "rape"). I rarely suggest anybody avoid listening to a story because I always feel everybody should watch/listen to shows and decide for themselves... but I can only give my highest recommendation that you forget this story exists and don't ever put yourself through the misfortune of having to listen to it. It's a bad story. It's bad.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Nov 26, 2015

IceAgeComing
Jan 29, 2013

pretty fucking embarrassing to watch
You honestly could replace all of those words with "Nekromanteia is loving awful" repeated over and over again, there's honestly nothing more that needs saying. People poo poo on Minuet in Hell but that's a different sort of bad which means that's its a fun listen to laugh at it, plus it has the Brigadier and that's an obvious plus. Nekromanteia is just unfiltered poo poo with nothing good about it. Usually bad stories have some weird people on the internet that defend them: I'm pretty sure I've never seen a good word said about Nekromanteia...

e: On the topic of good Big Finish stuff that I missed earlier: the first Big Finishes I ever listened to were the three 1963 ones (my big sis bought me them for christmas, lord only knows where they found them from) and they're a good introduction to Big Finish stuff if you ignore the fact that they are full price. They're stories that you could listen to without any knowledge of Big Finish stuff because they were produced as an additional 50th anniversary thing, and therefore they went a lot closer to the TV show than a lot of Big Finish stories do especially with the seventh Doctor one. My favourite one of the three is The Assassination Games because I'm a sucker for that sort of story (plus it has the Counter Measures folk in it!) but that isn't the one on sale - although Fanfare for the Common Men is pretty good as well.

IceAgeComing fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Nov 26, 2015

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



Jerusalem posted:



Short Synopsis: A nasty, squalid little story to be avoided.



To anyone thinking, "Nah, surely it can't be that bad." It is. Hands down the worst BF Who story. Avoid it. If you listen to it, you will hate yourself for doing so.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

I legit thought about making the write-up be purely,"This is poo poo."

Minuet in Hell is really bad, but it's really bad in a listenable way, even if that is purely because you're constantly going,"What the gently caress am I listening to? :psyduck:" Nekromanteia is just awful, and not even in a car-crash way.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
I believe I've read that Peter Davison was so upset with "Nekromanteia" that he asked Big Finish never to let the guy who wrote it do another Doctor Who script for them.

Also, if I recall correctly, the attempted rapist character gets the happiest ending out of the entire cast.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

After The War posted:

Also Eldrad. Who simply must live.

He CREATED THIS WORLDDDDD


Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Wheat Loaf posted:

I believe I've read that Peter Davison was so upset with "Nekromanteia" that he asked Big Finish never to let the guy who wrote it do another Doctor Who script for them.

I would like to kiss Peter :shobon:

Wheat Loaf posted:

Also, if I recall correctly, the attempted rapist character gets the happiest ending out of the entire cast.

Yep, which outside of being distasteful makes zero sense since they've already established there is a strict hierarchy and seniority system that MUST be followed AND (in a single late throwaway line) that the character is of an "inferior" bloodline and by the rules of their society is automatically blocked from this kind of progression.

It's just a terrible story.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Jerusalem posted:

I would like to kiss Peter :shobon:

Don't worry


It's alright to kiss Peter

HardKase
Jul 15, 2007
TASTY
I just want to say.

I'm glad she's dead.

dark_archon
Jan 11, 2008
TITLE TEXT!
I listened to Minuet in Hell last year while going through some 8 audios. I heard so much about how bad it is but... I kind of liked it?
To be honest, I don't remember much of the plot - I guess it wasn't that memorable - but it felt so weird, surreal and I guess... kinky(?) in a way that it did grab enough of my attention to keep listening to it.
I didn't find it unbearable like some of the goons, although it did sound unlike any Who story I heard before.
Although I only had a chance to listen to maybe a dozen BF stories so I don't really have that much to compare it to.

TL;DR: I did not hate Minuet in Hell. Ask me anything.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009
I don't think anyone legit HATES Minuet, it's more like The Room or Plan 9 From Outer Space or The Pumaman. It's awful, but in a fun way.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!
Minuet in Hell is a story you would hear on an audio version of MST3K.

Nekromanteia is a story Mary Whitehouse would have legitimate grievances about.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.
Minuet is funny bad; it's just the incoherency of the plot, the goofily bad American accents, and that weird sense that BF were trying to cobble this lunacy together into something, and then gave up half-way. It's passively "bad" - the attempts at drama are undercut by the absurdity of the story, and the hammy acting. But it's enjoyable enough to listen through.

Nekromanteia...nthing everything else everyone has said. It's actively bad - listening to it leaves a bad taste in the mouth - it's audio grody.

Jerusalem posted:

[*] Sex and violence. I'm always torn when it comes to this type of thing in Doctor Who - I'd like to think there isn't ANY theme that can't be explored in an interesting way by a good writer. But the writing here is not good, and the overabundance of violence coupled with the extraordinarily distasteful sexual elements feel horribly out of place, present purely for their shock value.

Sex has always been a difficult theme for Who to handle really. The closest it get to being handled okay in the audios, seems to be the Benny Summerfield stuff, but even then they drop the ball more times than not. Saying that though, even the episode in which a pansexual orgy happens (certainly one of the more :crossarms: episodes) is handled with more maturity than Torchwood. :v:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Pesky Splinter posted:

Sex has always been a difficult theme for Who to handle really.

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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

In all seriousness, I think the best handle they ever got on it was season one of the revival. Outside of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances which was a very fun way of looking at things, there's also that great bit in Aliens of London where they show up 12 months later instead of 12 hours and Jackie calls the policeman around. Rose attempts to explain their relationship (He's a traveler, and I'm his traveling companion) and he cuts straight to the chase with,"Your 'companion'.... is this a sexual thing?"

It struck me as a very realistic question to ask (19-year-old girl disappears for a year with a middle aged stranger), it was handled in an appropriate fashion, and it allowed the Doctor and Rose to very quickly puncture the idea. The handling of sex (when it came up) in the years that followed wasn't the greatest, and forget about goddamn Torchwood, but I think RTD got it right in that first season.

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