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Dabir posted:It was an offhand thing in the classic series, which barely got halfway past the limit.
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Dec 4, 2015 20:39
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 19:18 |
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Well good to know! Thanks guys!
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Dec 4, 2015 20:52
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OK, so to summarise: Roger Delgado was killed in a car accident 1973, and when they decided to bring the Master back they had Peter Pratt play a shambling, corpse like version - which Robert Holmes explained as happening because he had reached his regeneration limit. This idea had been bubbling around for a while in Bob Holmes's head, because part of the things he did when editing the gently caress out of The Brain of Morbius was to insert 8 additional faces, intended to be the Doctor's previous selves. For those of you keeping up, this means that Tom Baker was actually Doctor number 12. Later on, Bob Holmes wrote the regeneration story for the Fifth (13th) Doctor, and in Holmes's own version of Doctor Who canon this was a regeneration that wasn't supposed to happen - hence lines like "Is this death?". He then regenerated anyway, and was a bit unstable and that was the end of it. However, the obsession with continuity that was introduced under JNT and Saward, and embodied in the fans of the 90's - including those who wrote the NAs - made this into one of the Firm Things That Is Known About Time Lords, what with it being mentioned in more than one story (!) and so we had the regeneration into Capaldi that we got
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Dec 4, 2015 20:53
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It was good of Moffat to get the regeneration limit out of the way, as of Capaldi it can now be safely ignored forever.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:00
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It could be safely ignored anyway!
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Dec 4, 2015 21:00
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MrL_JaKiri posted:OK, so to summarise: On some level I'm okay with what Holmes did being undone, if only because I like the idea of the First Doctor being...well, the First Doctor. The idea that the Doctor was 8 different people before hand is just weird to me. The rest of it can go toss right out the window.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:01
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Burkion posted:On some level I'm okay with what Holmes did being undone, if only because I like the idea of the First Doctor being...well, the First Doctor. The idea that the Doctor was 8 different people before hand is just weird to me. It certainly makes it neater. For those who haven't seen the early (early early) serials, the Doctor was initially a much less helpful sort and most of the actual heroing was left up to Ian and to a lesser extent Barbara (it was the sixties, after all). Over the course of the first 3 series we saw him develop into the "deal with the bad guys" kind of person he is more widely known as. To have multiple incarnations beforehand isn't really something you can say is wrong, or impossible, it's just unnecessary. We saw the character "the Doctor" come into being on our screens, to have additional back story is pointless. Sorry Andrew.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:08
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The offhandedness comes from nobody thinking they'd get to the point where they'd need to run into it. It's like the Y2K thing, in a way. Seriously, twelve Doctors? That'd never happen, the show would have to be on for, like, half a century to reach that!
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Dec 4, 2015 21:14
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What classic serials on Netflix are worth watching? I've jumped around a bit and watched Spearhead from Space, Three Doctors, and Pyramids of Mars. I want to get a better idea of whatthe old show was like.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:16
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You haven't watched City of Death yet. Do that.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:19
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MisterBibs posted:The offhandedness comes from nobody thinking they'd get to the point where they'd need to run into it. It's like the Y2K thing, in a way. Seriously, twelve Doctors? That'd never happen, the show would have to be on for, like, half a century to reach that! I don't think it's that (although - for people who aren't Bob Holmes and therefore didn't know it had been dealt with - it did play a minor roll). More important is that the Doctor is revealed to have some special, if mundane and highly situational, power or limitation every few stories and we definitely don't remember all of those. It was written in an era where people couldn't go back and watch old stories, even if they wanted to. Internal continuity is much less important in that kind of environment, and contributed to the programme lasting so long as the new team were able to set about things with fewer limitations. Cabinet posted:What classic serials on Netflix are worth watching? I've jumped around a bit and watched Spearhead from Space, Three Doctors, and Pyramids of Mars. I want to get a better idea of whatthe old show was like. There's a list in the first post that contains the usual recommendations. If you want something a bit more specific, what do you like (or not like) about those serials and modern stories?
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Dec 4, 2015 21:20
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But if you didn't think that Pyramids had two of the best voices to ever appear on television (Sutekh, and the alien thingy that is revealed to be Scarman) then there's going to be violence
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Dec 4, 2015 21:23
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MrL_JaKiri posted:There's a list in the first post that contains the usual recommendations. If you want something a bit more specific, what do you like (or not like) about those serials and modern stories? I watched all the ones that were available and were recommended in the OP. I really liked the Three Doctors because of the characters bouncing off each other. Spearhead felt a little off to what I was expecting, but I'm not holding anything against it because it was the first episode for Pertwee. Pyramids of Mars was pretty fun and I get why Baker seems to be a fan favorite. MrL_JaKiri posted:But if you didn't think that Pyramids had two of the best voices to ever appear on television (Sutekh, and the alien thingy that is revealed to be Scarman) then there's going to be violence No need! I was 100% down with it.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:28
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remusclaw posted:I don't thinks is that weird, its one of the few concrete things we learned about the Doctor and the Time Lords. It makes him mortal and therefore it makes each incremental regeneration more dramatic as it ticks down to his last chance. Shame it had to be rushed, had a lot of dramatic potential if given the proper build. I mean, you know he was going to cheat it somehow, but there is drama in the build, and we missed out on that because someone wanted to rush it. the only two times it's come up for the Doctor in story arcs - under Holmes and Moffat - there's been unknown previous generations inserted to the doctor's past. that seem's pretty much the opposite of concrete to me. and the Master's been explicitly given new regenerations twice.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:34
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Try Tomb of the Cybermen. Iconic story for an iconic villain, episodes which have Jamie in tend to have some good lines*, and it's spreading the Doctors about a bit. It's not perfect (the accents are rubbish), but it is very good overall. If you want more Fourth Doctor, try The Robots of Death or City of Death - both have excellent scripts. Hartnell, I'd try The Dalek Invasion of Earth (go into it not knowing that the Daleks are in it, or indeed will ever appear again following their first story, to have the mindset of the time). Not such a fan of CBakes or David Peterson so I'll let others speak for them. The Curse of Fenric is the McCoy I'd recommend, it's a WW2 (indeed, faux Bletchley park)-set semi-horror story that features Nicholas Parsons (most famous for presenting a comedy radio game show) in a surprisingly excellent dramatic role. *He's a Scottish soldier from the 18th century. Victoria - the other companion in Tomb is from the Victorian era (ho ho), but later on when he's partnered with the super-genius from the future Zoe there tend to be lots of jokes about the contrast between the two of them. eg, from The Seeds of Death, KELLY: Do you think it's wise letting these people crew the rocket? RADNOR: Wise? No, of course it's not wise, but what's the alternative? We gave up training astronauts years ago. KELLY: But who are they? RADNOR: Some of Eldred's crazy friends, I imagine. But the man who calls himself the Doctor certainly knows his space travel. KELLY: How can you be sure? RADNOR: Well, you wanted the briefing, but he and the girl know more about space flight than Eldred. KELLY: What about the boy? RADNOR: Yes, I'm not sure about him.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:39
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DoctorWhat posted:Why assume that Eleven knew all along? He clearly thinks that he might be able to regenerate in Let's Kill Hitler. I like to think that Eleven didn't realise before this point, but the incident prompted him to investigate after the dust cleared, and pieced together his situation off-screen.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:42
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2house2fly posted:It was good of Moffat to get the regeneration limit out of the way, as of Capaldi it can now be safely ignored forever. At least, for another 50 years.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:51
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Colin Baker-wise: I think that Vengeance on Varos is his best story; and one that's incredibly under-rated. Revelation of the Daleks is alright I suppose: certainly the second best Dalek story of the 80s... Unfortunately lots of the other ones aren't very good although I've not seen all of them so I can't accurately comment on them. I'd also recommend Remembrance of the Daleks for McCoy; although with the exception of Silver Nemesis nothing from the last two series are terrible. The worst you probably have is Battlefield which is incredibly silly and really shouldn't work but it just does, plus it has the Brigadier in it so it can't be bad! Although its not one that I'd watch first, there are plenty of things better! Are the classic episodes on Netflix still the unrestored ones? They were when I last had it and its a shame that they aren't using the good quality versions of the things there, especially when that's likely to be the thing that gets folk into the older series.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:56
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CaptainYesterday posted:At least, for another 50 years. In the otherwise rather awful Doctor Who and the Space Spiders, the Doctor is chastising the astronauts for threatening to shoot them and says (paraphrased),"You'll have to keep shooting me because I'll keep getting back up. Who knows how many times? It's all new to me now, maybe I'll just keep getting up forever." So in 50 years time it'll be a case of the 25th Doctor going,"Hmmm this could be my last regeneration maybe....?" and then it won't be, and the show will continue on forever like it is meant to.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:59
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Guys, in Morbius the Doctor was just thinking about his favorite television production team goofing off in silly costumes! 
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Dec 4, 2015 22:07
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Thank you! The only issue is that a lot of those aren't on Netflix anymore. Here's the full list of the episodes on right now.  I know that you can watch basically all the classic episodes on Hulu but I can't make an account on it for some reason.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:12
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2house2fly posted:Presumably the idea is that 9 would have taken the place of War, being the one who was going to push the big red button. I don't like that idea much myself; given 9's comments about his appearance while looking in the mirror in his first episode it seemed like he was freshly regenerated, though I read somewhere RTD didn't mean to give that impression (what impression DID he mean to give?) In a recent DWM, in their "The Fact of Fiction" on "Rose" they asked RTD about it, and he said no, Ninth hadn't just regeneration. He posited does Nine behave like a Doctor who's freshly regenerated? He's not manic, confused. He's fully formed. Plus, later on, we see evidence of his adventures pre-"Rose" (The JFK assassination, The Titanic, etc.)
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Dec 4, 2015 22:16
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Cabinet posted:Thank you! The only issue is that a lot of those aren't on Netflix anymore. Here's the full list of the episodes on right now. The Aztecs is essential First Doctor viewing.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:34
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Cabinet posted:Thank you! The only issue is that a lot of those aren't on Netflix anymore. Here's the full list of the episodes on right now. The Power of Kroll and The Leisure Hive are the only really duff ones on that list. I wouldn't watch Caves of Androzani before getting to know the Fifth Doctor, although it is very good. Dailymotion has them all last time I checked 
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Dec 4, 2015 22:40
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Cabinet posted:Thank you! The only issue is that a lot of those aren't on Netflix anymore. Here's the full list of the episodes on right now. Outside of the couple that MrL_JaKiri mentioned, these are all pretty drat good watches (I love The Aztecs) so you can't really go wrong.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:50
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More notes on that list: Both City of Death (T.Bakes/Romana II) and Pirate Planet (T.Bakes/Romana I/K-9) are specifically Douglas Adams penned during his showrunner span and have really fun dialogue. The Horror of Fang Rock is a high mark for base-under-siege horror and has Leela being pretty awesome at Tom. The Green Death is full-on Pertwee and has both the Brigadier in his prime and Jo's swansong. And The Mind Robber is an alternately brilliantly and stupidly weird Troughton adventure with Jamie and Zoe both being adorable.
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Dec 4, 2015 23:26
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Jerusalem posted:Outside of the couple that MrL_JaKiri mentioned, these are all pretty drat good watches (I love The Aztecs) so you can't really go wrong. Even those two have some great stuff in them. Just, uh, lots of not so great stuff
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Dec 4, 2015 23:35
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Even those two have some great stuff in them. Just, uh, lots of not so great stuff I will never forgive Power of Kroll for hiring Philip Madoc and then just having him play,"Random dude who is also there." The main villain is actually really loving good.... but Philip Madoc is RIGHT THERE!  Edit: There is actually some fun stuff in the commentary talking about how the casting came about and how upset Madoc was when he realized how inconsequential his part was going to be.
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Dec 4, 2015 23:42
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Davros1 posted:In a recent DWM, in their "The Fact of Fiction" on "Rose" they asked RTD about it, and he said no, Ninth hadn't just regeneration. He posited does Nine behave like a Doctor who's freshly regenerated? He's not manic, confused. He's fully formed. Plus, later on, we see evidence of his adventures pre-"Rose" (The JFK assassination, The Titanic, etc.) they're pre-Rose from Clive's perspective in a linear view of Earth's history, but I always thought it was implied that they take place later in the Doctor's own timeline with Rose probably taking the photos.
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Dec 5, 2015 00:02
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The Leisure Hive is actually pretty ok, I always remember it as being worse than it is
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Dec 5, 2015 00:13
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The Leisure Hive has that amazing cliffhanger in Part 1 where Tom Baker gets his limbs torn off via CSO and then his screaming head launches towards the camera as the cliffhanger sting plays. Like, holy poo poo is that a moment where I'd have pissed myself as a 7 year old in 1980.
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Dec 5, 2015 00:26
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Just to point things out about the50th, from that interview Moffat did a little while ago where they talked about it: the 50th with Eccleston was an entirely different story, set in the Doctor's timestream from Name of the Doctor; that's why they make a big deal about Eleven going in and yet he gets out off-screen, it's because that was the remnants of a script they weren't able to entirely scrap. The War Doctor was specifically written for John Hurt, almost entirely by chance; Moffat floated the idea of a Doctor we never saw, played by a famous actor, and the first name he suggested happened to say yes. No telling what they would have done if they didn't. What I don't think is that the role would've gone to Eight. I mean I love him too, and he would've done a good job, but I also recall Moffat mentioning a little after the air date of Day that he specifically wouldn't have cast McGann, Eccleston or any previous Doctor as the War Doctor. Since the idea is that this the Doctor that hosed up, walked away from what it meant to be the Doctor, and did horrible things. It's a role that could have only gone to a nonexistent Doctor, because every other Doctor has their fans and to them, it would be like saying 'you, your favorite is the worst Doctor'. Personally, I think Colin Baker's fans could've taken it, but that probably wouldn't have worked.
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Dec 5, 2015 01:03
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UNIT: Dominion is on sale at Big Finish at the moment, it's well worth a listen if only for one particular character's wonderful performance.
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Dec 5, 2015 01:27
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MrL_JaKiri posted:OK, so to summarise: This is interesting stuff. Is there a book somewhere that collects this kind of trivia, or is this all from assorted sources?
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Dec 5, 2015 01:56
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I'm not really fussed how many regenerations the Doctor has as long as it always gives rise to decent stories. That's why the specific count matters (mattered), because there is (was) a story to be told when the fellow finally runs out. (Also, if the Doctor isn't as essentially mortal as the rest of us it kind of breaks the show.)
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Dec 5, 2015 01:58
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 Short Synopsis: the Doctor forced to suffering an ongoing toxic Nyssa disaster Long Synopsis: A non-linear story in which the Doctor and Nyssa are forced to land on a planet suffering ongoing toxic effects from an ecological disaster. Caught between secretive factions, the two have to figure out who is in the right, who is in the wrong, and whether they should interfere or not. What's Good:
What's Not:
Final Thoughts: Creatures of Beauty is a pretty plain story that is made stronger by its well-executed non-linear gimmick. Presenting a world that feels "lived in", it offers up moral conundrums that have no easy answers and doesn't attempt to give any. Filled with strong supporting characters who get plenty of time to shine, it is guilty of overlooking/relegating its main cast to mostly background characters. The "resolution" is non-existent, which is not a bad thing by itself (and is actually a good thing in regards to this story) but it does mean that the already relegated Doctor and Nyssa also end up being completely superfluous - they achieve nothing and affect nothing whatsoever. Remove them from the story and things would still mostly have progressed as they did anyway - they're purely there to get people to (eventually) reveal the backstory of the planet and the situation between the Koteem and the Veln. The final twist feels unnecessary, but the way everything comes together to complete the "puzzle" of the story is well handled, and it is a lot of fun to listen to just to get the new information and realize the fresh context of events you've already heard from a different point of view. I'd say this is a story well worth listening to, if only for the gimmick.
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Dec 5, 2015 02:39
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" but it kind of falls flat in that regard. Take it out of the story and you lose nothing, leave it in and it adds nothing.
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Stabbatical posted:This is interesting stuff. Is there a book somewhere that collects this kind of trivia, or is this all from assorted sources? It's from a handful of sources - Doctor Who - The Handbook, xth Doctor series that's long out of print, for example. If you're into criticism and the context specifically of the writing there's the rather good About Time series by Tat Wood and thread favourite Larry Miles and for purely production side stuff there's the excellent A Brief History of Time (Travel) website, which collates various sources. Here's the one for Delgado's final serial, for example, which includes information about how he died. You could also wait for my book  On this topic, here's Rusty: quote:When they came [to America] to launch The Eleventh Hour, I went along to this screening in LA and journalists put their hands up, and one of the first questions was, "What will happen when he reaches the thirteenth regeneration?" There's a fascinating academic study to be made out of how some facts stick and some don't – how Jon Pertwee's Doctor could say he was thousands of years old, and no-one listens to that, and yet someone once says he’s only got thirteen lives, and it becomes lore. It's really interesting, I think. That's why I’m quite serious that that 507 thing won't stick, because the 13 is too deeply ingrained in the public consciousness. But how? How did that get there?
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Dec 5, 2015 02:56
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I think the 13 thing stuck because it's such an obvious dramatic device. Without it, regeneration is just Hitchcock's conversation in a cafe. The limit is the bomb under the table.
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Dec 5, 2015 02:59
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They can't really use the 13 thing now, too, since the time lords gave him energy he was blasting spaceships with it, and then davros drained so much from him he raised all the daleks dead. It does cut out the drama of threatening the Doctor's life a bit but honestly the last three generations were always so concerned about death (10 because he didn't want to change and 11 had two different seasons about his future death, either being assassinated at the lake or finding his gravesite) that it's fine that they can't go to that well for a well. I do wonder if they will put a number on how many regenerations he has at some point.
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Dec 5, 2015 03:33
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 19:18 |
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Who is responsible for this. Please note that this may be read as both a question and a declaration.
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Dec 5, 2015 03:58
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