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Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


I don't know how I feel about this episode. There were good ideas, but there were so many questions.

I'll wait til next week before I jump head first into it.

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M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

So I came up with a Crazy Fan Theory about a Theories Theory.

The basic Level 1 theory: Missy talking about the time the doctor spent as a girl. Actually true. Or will be true. Or will have been true? I haven't read Dr. Dan's 1001 Time Travel Tense formations OK.

The odd Level 2 theory about said theory: Moffat purposefully wrote that line the way he did to get crazy internet people to suspect that the Doctor being a girl at one point was not the lie out of the three.

The Level 3 where Crazy goes to town: Of course, as crazy internet people once suspecting this they come to suspect that the girl who appeared in the trailers must then be the Doctor! What other little girl could possibly play a teenage rebellious gender swapping Doctor than Maisie Williams! She can change her face if you believe Game of Thrones!

Which leaves us at Level 4: We the thread are all the crazy internet people, and we should bow our heads in shame.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



So, is there anyone here who dares to try answering the question "What was that episode about?" Even if Part 2 turns out as well as possible, I can't shake the feeling that it could be easily watched on its own as long as it has a 15-second recap of last week.

ConanThe3rd
Mar 27, 2009


OK, you have my attention Moffat, let's see you stick the landing.


Dabir posted:

"Eight snipers firing really quickly at these specific parts of me will be enough to kill me and stop my regeneration, there, now you can talk to me in safety." - lying liar who lies

"OK, we'll believe you completely." - Earth's greatest line of defense against alien invasion.

Not doubting The Master of all people is full of poo poo but wasn't that enough for 11th that one time?

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


Lipstick Apathy

I just fell about laughing at the entrance on the tank with the guitar hero act. Like that isn't every actor's dream I'm probably wildy over-estimating Moffat but he seems to be going for as much visual metaphor for internal conflict as he possibly can and it is indeed a mess, but hey we get Missy back.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


He didn't have a personal teleporter that makes it look like you've been vapourised on-hand, and of course he was willingly going to his death.

Marmaduke!
May 19, 2009

Why would it do that!?

Mr Beens posted:

I didn't know what you meant as your statement "Yes if only things could be more spoiled with fewer surprises." was pretty vague when I made a couple of different points in my post. I now know what you mean. I'm glad you thought I put it wonderfully, I put a lot of thought into my initial reply.

I hate spoilers, I just happend to notice that in the "whats on TV tonight" bit, the guy mentioned that the second part is really good. No spoliers.
If I didn't know that this was part one of a 2 parter I would have been incredibly confused - the epiosde, as other people have said, was poorly paced and just ended. The "cliffhanger" was really poo poo. Having 2 part stories flagged as such is pretty drat common in TV.

All fair enough. I didn't know this was a 2-parter but I don't think I lost anything from not knowing it. Any Doctor Who fan must know any (and probably each) episode is just going to be all over the place, as was tonight's. I just actually liked not knowing it was a 2-parter, in this age where producers are determined to ruin everything if they can. Any and all vitriol in these posts of mine are directed squarely at those guys, not your good self

Stabbatical
Sep 15, 2011



grobbo posted:

Yeah, I think the two are pretty much conflated - the pacing issues and the grandiosity.

For instance, a much simplified version of tonight's plot could have seen the Doctor give himself up to Davros, after which Missy shows up and quickly recruits Clara, having learnt he's in terrible danger, and they track him down together. You can do it in three moves.

Instead, we went the long way around so that Clara can spot planes frozen in the sky, Missy can have a Mexican standoff, the Doctor can have a medieval rock-out - all of which is justified by the will business, which just doesn't convince (after countless episodes where he heads into certain death but *doesn't* send out a will, why now?).

It just felt a little...indiscriminate in its spectacle. After the initial hook, I'd been looking forward to a bit more of an atmospheric two-hander; the Doctor, in a dank room with a foe he believes is defeated and dying, talking about their actions and beliefs. Playing out the quiet endgame of their war (before the inevitable trap is sprung).

I think this describes it pretty well. There's just too many payoffs (or "moments") and not enough build up.

I also wasn't really feeling Missy in this either. She didn't feel actually important or threatening to me, which is odd (and unfortunate) as Michelle Gomez was clearly acting just as well as she did before. The same goes for Peter Capaldi, and Jenna Coleman. Julian Bleach as Davros was still as thrilling to watch as ever though. I just didn't feel the episode over all. Ah well.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Gifs from The Magician's Apprentice.... also I really hate Imgur's new layout/uploading system

















Jerusalem fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 03:27

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


















Jerusalem fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 03:27

seizure later
Apr 18, 2007


I liked Missy above everything else in the episode. I know it's a fault of the writing, but Jenna Coleman just doesn't interest me at all and the fact that she went from seeing Missy kill several UNIT agents to being friends with her almost immediately after was so weird, as if she was like "oh well if the Doctor still likes you then it doesn't matter that you're a murderer"

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The Doctor [brandishing eggwhisk]: EXTERMINATE!

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007



I liked the episode, hated that it's a cliff hanger. Enjoyed all the old call backs to previous incarnations talking to Davros. More Missy is never a bad thing and drat there's a lot of good gifs that came out of this premier.

Gordon Shumway
Jan 21, 2008

Do not attempt to adjust your set...


A Moffat explosion, I hope it all gets coherent in part two. Seems like they're going for a blend of Genesis of the Daleks and Terror Firma.

Things that were good:
- Michelle Gomez is awesome
- The Master says "yeah, I survived, deal with it" instead of a convoluted "Cult of Saxon" esque explanation
- Great opening scene
- The scene with Missy and Clara in the square

Things that were bad:
- I have decided that the humans with the Dalek stalk are pretty stupid
- Asking around for the Doctor (didn't he remove himself from everyone's records? Why would random people at the Maldovarium know him?), seemed like a weak way to introduce the snake guy, and it was super fanwanky
- The snake guy
- The Doctor playing guitar on a tank, I'm sure Peter Capaldi was having the time of his life filming that scene but it was so cringeworthy

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

Gordon Shumway posted:

- The Doctor playing guitar on a tank, I'm sure Peter Capaldi was having the time of his life filming that scene but it was so cringeworthy

You, sir, are wrong! (As in Capaldi was both having his time of his life and the scene was not cringe worthy)

Also the fish tank pun, which I loved.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I loved the sections where Davros is talking about the Daleks as his "children", as well as admitting that he has zero control over them and glorying to the fact that they're holding out on exterminating Clara till she runs. I like the idea that at the end of his life and resigned to his fate (which I don't believe for a second) he's willing to just sit back and enjoy the fruits of his labor, and enjoy the fact his "kids" are doing so well.

kant
May 12, 2003


Gordon Shumway posted:

- The Doctor playing guitar on a tank, I'm sure Peter Capaldi was having the time of his life filming that scene but it was so cringeworthy

Nope. It was one of the best scenes in the history of Doctor Who.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


M_Gargantua posted:

So I came up with a Crazy Fan Theory about a Theories Theory.

The basic Level 1 theory: Missy talking about the time the doctor spent as a girl. Actually true. Or will be true. Or will have been true? I haven't read Dr. Dan's 1001 Time Travel Tense formations OK.

The odd Level 2 theory about said theory: Moffat purposefully wrote that line the way he did to get crazy internet people to suspect that the Doctor being a girl at one point was not the lie out of the three.

The Level 3 where Crazy goes to town: Of course, as crazy internet people once suspecting this they come to suspect that the girl who appeared in the trailers must then be the Doctor! What other little girl could possibly play a teenage rebellious gender swapping Doctor than Maisie Williams! She can change her face if you believe Game of Thrones!

Which leaves us at Level 4: We the thread are all the crazy internet people, and we should bow our heads in shame.

Unless the Master is out of synch with the Doctor, and it doesn't appear that way, then the little girl line was a lie. That's just, really obvious.

We know each of the Doctor's regenerations, including the one that didn't happen but happened after all. Unless the Doctor as a child transitioned from female to male, we've seen the First Doctor as a child and he was quite clearly a boy. You're overthinking this.

Jerusalem posted:

I loved the sections where Davros is talking about the Daleks as his "children", as well as admitting that he has zero control over them and glorying to the fact that they're holding out on exterminating Clara till she runs. I like the idea that at the end of his life and resigned to his fate (which I don't believe for a second) he's willing to just sit back and enjoy the fruits of his labor, and enjoy the fact his "kids" are doing so well.

Also the Daleks have pretty much just won the Time War at this point. It's not even a question anymore. Davros should be proud.

Why they haven't gotten around to wiping out the human race I am unclear on, but you know.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


I enjoyed the episode. I thought it was fun and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next week.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

One bit of dialogue I thought fell really flat was Davros going "compassion is wrong". I could see like, compassion is weak, compassion is worthless, something like that, but "wrong" sounds like Moffat was wracking his brain trying to think of a word and settled on that.

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007



Gordon Shumway posted:

- The Doctor playing guitar on a tank, I'm sure Peter Capaldi was having the time of his life filming that scene but it was so cringeworthy

Shutty up up up.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Burkion posted:

Also the Daleks have pretty much just won the Time War at this point. It's not even a question anymore. Davros should be proud.

It's interesting because they undoubtedly "won" in that they survived and eventually rebuilt.... but I get this weird sense that they're now somehow "lesser" than they were - more in line with the (still galaxies spanning) Empire/threat level they were during the Hartnell years. They obviously still have some form of time travel technology, but I've just had this sense since Victory of the Daleks that they're not on the same level as they were during the Time War. The Master pointing out the potential of the TARDIS as an asset to their Empire was kinda interesting in that regard, since it suggests they're not capable of producing anything beyond the crude, brute-force time travel they developed for stories like The Chase.

Who really knows of course, since nothing explicitly has been said, and Davros is around and he's basically capable of producing ANYTHING. It's just a sense I've had, and in a way that makes them the losers in the Time War, because the Time Lords did survive, and though they're not around anymore... they weren't ever really around before the Time War either. The Time Lords were always happy to be at the top of the food chain but isolated and non-interventionist, and now they're effectively as isolated as they can be. As we saw in Time of the Doctor, they're also more than capable of stepping in to gently caress up the Daleks big-time if forced to, but are kind of in a manner of detente in that coming back might kick off a whole new Time War as the Daleks have a history of escalating their abilities in reaction to a new enemy. If the Time Lords stay away, the Daleks may never rise above their current (and still unbelievably deadly) station in the Universe.

Box of Bunnies
Apr 3, 2012

One day, we'll know all the secrets of the skies, and we'll stop our wanderings.


Michelle Gomez is ridiculously fabulous

Also, "unlimited rice pudding!?" on my television in 2015

Andrew_1985
Sep 18, 2007
Hay hay hay!

Missy is amazing and I wanted more of her.
UNIT were depressingly incompetent.
Loved seeing the Shadow Proclamation again, it's a shame they don't get mentioned more.
Also, Daleks? Eh. Whatever. Are they the mutated hand mine things?

Absolutely HATED that Medieval rock crap. Dragged and dragged

Andrew_1985 fucked around with this message at Sep 19, 2015 around 23:28

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


Lipstick Apathy

kant posted:

Nope. It was one of the best scenes in the history of Doctor Who.

There'll be a bunch of ex-Doctors muttering "Well I could have done a guitar solo on a tank if you'd only asked". Tennant: "I would have done it but more Scottishly!". Smith: "I would have done it with a great scarf!" McGann: "I could have done it when I had the bloody hair!" Eccleston: "At least wear some kind of uniform and shoot everyone with the guitar!" McCoy: "No somesaults, that was the problem with the performance" Baker: "I had the perfect glam act and you wasted it!" Davison: "Maybe with a cricket bat instead?"

Tom Baker: "Ahahahaha...no. What about a nice flute or something?"

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011



"three possible versions of Atlantis"

Also, the Doctor goes through all the trouble of procuring a TANK but then sticks a tiny amp on top of it:


He couldn't have grabbed a Marshall stack or something while he was at it?

Darth Ronson
Jun 18, 2004

Say.. that's a nice
hat.


Dabir posted:

Teleport disguised as vapourisation. Again.

She's been recruiting everyone she's zapped and the entire next episode will be a heist featuring Team Missy. Probably.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


The people she killed at the cafe were vapourised for sure though, it was orange.

Megaspel
Mar 12, 2007
I CAN'T HELP BUT DERAIL THREADS WITH MY VERY PRESENCE

I ALSO HAVE A CLOUD OF DEDICATED IDIOTS FOLLOWING ME SHITTING UP EVERY THREAD I POST IN

IGNORE ME AND ANY DINOSAUR THAT FIGHTS WITH ME BECAUSE WE JUST CAN'T SHUT UP


I couldn't stop rolling my eyes throughout this episode. Not a single dramatic point had any weight or meaning. Death has no meaning any more, and every plot point can be predicted well in advanced. At this point I think I could only be impressed if they actually did kill off everyone and we're going to start following the Doctor's female clone/daughter or something. They even hosed up just reversing his 12 lifespan-lifespan or whatever "oh no I'm dead, oh whoops no I'm not lol" in like an instant.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


I adored the fact that the Master's reaction to being cornered by the Daleks was... try to make a deal to work with\for them. Because of COURSE she does. Put her against a wall and she'll try to collaborate with you and the wall, whichever seems to have the stronger position. Only because she's smarter than all of them, obviously and they'd never betray her before she could betray th-oops vapourised!

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



Miles better than the previous season opener, but I was very surprised when it ended and left with a distinct feeling that nothing actually happened in that episode, besides a montage of Cool Scenes. But all the individual scenes were very fun so I think I can forgive Moffat his indulgence this time.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.




Grimey Drawer

Oh crap, did they time compress this in the US? Movement seems really jerky.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.




Grimey Drawer

Wow, those smoke clouds. This has got to be BBC America's fault.

Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


Jerusalem posted:

glorying to the fact that they're holding out on exterminating Clara till she runs.

That's probably the biggest addition to actual Dalek character since like, Genesis of the Daleks maybe? It's a really great idea and goes a long way towards making them more frightening. It also backwards explains why the Doctor gets out of so many Dalek situations: he doesn't run, he talks.

So it looks like we're going to get a complete time rewrite for the second half, but they still gave Missy and Clara a way out, it looks like. Dalek laser beams usually do a color invert and then have the bodies fall to the floor, but they both got disintegrated. Which could, I suppose, be another secret teleport, albeit with skeletons.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

They had teleport rays and escaped, or the whole thing is staged for the Doctor's benefit and his subsequent trip back to kill young Davros is playing into old Davros's hands somehow. That's my theory nobody else claim it.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Remember the line about Clara's manipulator being slaved to Missy's? That will come up again.

I really liked Missy's portrayal of being on an even par with the Doctor, to the point of being a surrogate Doctor for Clara/the audience when the real one is busy chatting to Davros.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


The_Doctor posted:

Remember the line about Clara's manipulator being slaved to Missy's? That will come up again.

I really liked Missy's portrayal of being on an even par with the Doctor, to the point of being a surrogate Doctor for Clara/the audience when the real one is busy chatting to Davros.

PRETTY sure the Master isn't a very good surrogate for the Doctor.

What with the murdering people and trying to make deals with Daleks *AGAIN*.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The_Doctor posted:

I really liked Missy's portrayal of being on an even par with the Doctor, to the point of being a surrogate Doctor for Clara/the audience when the real one is busy chatting to Davros.

I love that the Doctor quietly offers the,"Gravity" line to the Master like he would to a companion, giving them a clue they can use to figure out what he already has.... and the Master just rolls her eyes and grunts,"I know! "

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007



I liked that. Missy was great again. Both the non-explanation of being alive again and being put out that the Doctor said Davros was his nemesis were great, along with a bunch of other things. I hope they don't overload with her like they did the Paternoster Gang though. Strax can come back though.

But unless the Daleks have suddenly redesigned their weapons to also vaporize stuff, they so clearly didn't exterminate anyone there that I wouldn't be surprised if the audience was supposed to realize it's teleporters or something again. I mean, Daleks always leave a big trail of bodies, it's basically their shtick. They want everybody to see who's been exterminated this time.

Also it is good that the Doctor and Big Boss have the same taste in tanks. Big, gold, equipped with sound system. That whole scene was great.

Also also, Special Weapons Dalek! I love that guy.

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Gimnbo
Feb 13, 2012

e m b r a c e
t r a n q u i l i t y





My brother decided to join me since I was watching TV, and I never watch TV. It was his first episode of Doctor Who and I'm pretty sure it will be his last.

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