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Dec 21, 2010



Megaspel posted:

I couldn't stop rolling my eyes throughout this episode. Not a single dramatic point had any weight or meaning. Death has no meaning any more, and every plot point can be predicted well in advanced. At this point I think I could only be impressed if they actually did kill off everyone and we're going to start following the Doctor's female clone/daughter or something. They even hosed up just reversing his 12 lifespan-lifespan or whatever "oh no I'm dead, oh whoops no I'm not lol" in like an instant.

This pretty much perfectly sums up my feelings on the episode. I quite like Doctor Who in general, but I've never found the writing to be terribly good and this is a particularly bad example of it. That being said, I still enjoy coming back to the show after it's been on hiatus and I get that they want to do a big showy season premiere and trying to inject drama is one way to do that.

Read fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 08:12

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Chucat
Apr 14, 2006

Childrens' stories about witches and wizards, especially those written by middle-aged women, are an integral part of the current face of literature. I think you would do well to give them the respect they deserve.


Yeah it's sort of silly when a character will have been killed and been brought back to life 3 times in as many consecutive episodes.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Jerusalem posted:

In all seriousness though, I haven't watched it for a while but I kinda recalled the Daleks only being able to follow the path that the Doctor was taking in his TARDIS, and the only time it actually goes anywhere ahead of the TARDIS is when the Doctor gets inside and programs it to return Ian and Barbara to 1963 (and he screws that up too!)?

No, the fact that they are able to follow the Doctor is used as evidence that it's really sophisticated.

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?


The episode was pretty entertaining. I was kind of bummed when I realised they were not going to wrap things up. Moffat seems hell-bent on turning Doctor Who into feature films. It just doesn't seem like such a good idea considering how hit-or-miss the show can be. Series 8 had a nice breakneck pace to it that made it easy to ignore the duds. This feels a little slow.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


Lipstick Apathy

ConanThe3rd posted:

Speaking as a Scott myself I'm not quite sure how much more Scottish you can be than riding into middle ages Essex in a tank and casually causing time paradoxes with puns, lexicon and electric guitar solos whilst on what is essentially an "Oh gently caress, I'm going to die" bender (We need to see more of those, Ten's was largly off screen but it sounded like a blast )

Tennant would do it in a kilt and mangle a Glaswegian accent.

Mr Beens
Dec 2, 2006


Wolfechu posted:

Just got done watching the episode, and I don't know if it's our TV, or they've changed the sound mixing or something, but Jesus Christ, Murray Gold was just stamping on half the dialogue.

I haven't even complained once about the incidental music in the last ten years, but we had to watch several scenes multiple times to figure out what people were saying, Davros particularly. We ended up watching the last ten minutes with closed captioning on.

Other than that, really enjoyed the episode.

It's not just you - I mentioned it earlier in the thread too.

And More posted:

The episode was pretty entertaining. I was kind of bummed when I realised they were not going to wrap things up. Moffat seems hell-bent on turning Doctor Who into feature films. It just doesn't seem like such a good idea considering how hit-or-miss the show can be. Series 8 had a nice breakneck pace to it that made it easy to ignore the duds. This feels a little slow.

Sorry to break it to you, but even though Moffat derided 2 parters in the past, most of this season are 2 parters

Attitude Indicator
Apr 3, 2009


i didn't catch a word Davros said, but that's mostly due to my terrible sound setup. It's okay though, Davros is the most boring frankenstein anyway

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Guys, you're all forgetting the best part of this episode. Classic 60's-Skaro white-and-blue Daleks .

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012



Neddy Seagoon posted:

Guys, you're all forgetting the best part of this episode. Classic 60's-Skaro white-and-blue Daleks .

From what I've seen, most things in the 60s were black and white.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Also, strictly speaking The Planet of the Daleks was Spiradon

And that 1960's dalek didn't have the solar panels that were added in The Chase so wouldn't be able to move on the rocky surface of the planet

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Skaro was looking a lot better than when we saw it in Asylum of the Daleks, the Daleks really blinged the place back up.

Did the 60s Dalek have the original Dalek eye?

MikeJF fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 11:03

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Fans always know better than the creators.


Neddy Seagoon posted:

Guys, you're all forgetting the best part of this episode. Classic 60's-Skaro white-and-blue Daleks .

That has to be the prop from An Adventure in Space and Time, right? That was great to see. Can I ask for a quick tally on what sorts of Daleks were actually in that room? I could recognize the 60s Dalek, the black Dalek from the Cult of Skaro, and the New Who Standard Daleks, but I know there's more.

I quite liked this episode as it was going, although it's one of those two-parters that clearly feels like half of a story. Not much actually happens, although it's pretty clear that a lot of stuff WILL happen, and it stops right when it should be kicking off. It's still a good opener, but it's one of the ones that leaves you wanting for the other half out of clearly not getting it, rather than legitimately wanting more. Really liking Missy as a supporting character rather than an antagonist, though, she's probably what made the whole thing enjoyable rather than disappointing.

I'll also say this feels a lot like an RTD episode. Time Heist from last season looked like one, but this one's legitimately structured like how he did episodes, especially finales. And I was thinking of that even before the Shadow Proclamation turned up. The fact we've pretty much blown almost every noteworthy, possibly spoiler-ish story thing we knew from pre-season honestly bodes well in my mind; we knew about Missy, we put together Skaro, there were whispers of Davros... but we're getting most of that out of the way in the first two weeks, who the gently caress knows where we're going after the next episode!

One last thing: Not sure why, but I really liked how Clara looked this episode. Must be the hair and jacket together, it just works.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Cleretic posted:

That has to be the prop from An Adventure in Space and Time, right? That was great to see. Can I ask for a quick tally on what sorts of Daleks were actually in that room? I could recognize the 60s Dalek, the black Dalek from the Cult of Skaro, and the New Who Standard Daleks, but I know there's more.

You forgot the Heavy-Weapons Dalek.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



There was the a bunch of Time War era nuWho brass Daleks, the shiny black Dalek Sec nuWho Dalek, a few classic 60s blueballs Daleks, a blueballs Dalek with a black dome (Emperor's Guard, I think), a grey Renegade Dalek, an Imperial heavy weapons Dalek, and the Dalek Supreme from Journey's End in the middle. Every single one of them had a glowing blue eye, though, even the classics. I think that was all of them.

If the classic 60s daleks are from An Adventure in Time An Space they've gotten a paintjob since then, since the body of the Dalek around the weapon/manipulator is actually also a pale eggshell blue in this. I don't any Daleks were like that. The blue balls on them also looks a lot paler than the 60s ones were. The black-domed one has the correct darker blue and fully-silver body, though.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 11:52

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

Because if I tell you, you'll tell your friends, your friends are callin' me on the horn all the time, I gotta show up at shopping centers for openings and sign autographs and shit like that and it makes my life a *hell*. Okay? A living hell.


Fan of Britches

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Guys, you're all forgetting the best part of this episode. Classic 60's-Skaro white-and-blue Daleks .

I actually cheered when the Type 1 Dalek appeared out of nowhere.



MikeJF posted:

If the classic 60s daleks are from An Adventure in Time An Space they've gotten a paintjob since then, since the body of the Dalek around the weapon/manipulator is actually also a pale eggshell blue in this. I don't any Daleks were like that. The blue balls on them also looks a lot paler than the 60s ones were. The black-domed one has the correct darker blue and fully-silver body, though.

I'm wondering how many of the Daleks were actual BBC props or whether they borrowed any of them from local cosplay groups.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012


We've got this thing licked!



Snowglobe of Doom posted:

I actually cheered when the Type 1 Dalek appeared out of nowhere.

This episode had a lot of good and bad in it, but I loved that they had a classic Dalek capture them rather than just stick it in the background of the room with all the Daleks.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



Snowglobe of Doom posted:

I'm wondering how many of the Daleks were actual BBC props or whether they borrowed any of them from local cosplay groups.

Read and find out!

The 60s ones were from the Doctor Who Experience, the Renegade was a fan, the Weapons Dalek was from HireADalek, and a few of the new series ones were from the Experience or HireADalek because the BBC doesn't have that many.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 12:03

Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


If any of them still exist, I'd love it if they threw some movie Daleks in there from time to time. Partly because they look great and partly because it would confuse continuity even further.

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!


I liked that episode more than most people did I think, but that may be because it's just been awhile since the last season and I'm always eager for more Who. I'm sure it's more of the usual "oh they didn't really die because of XXXXXXXXX" but it could be a pretty crazy story if they are dead and the Doctor has to pull some real hardcore time shenanigans to outright undo it, even if those shenanigans aren't the literal murder of an innocent child.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


I quite enjoyed that Davros's presence was fairly understated. He's just there and as far as I can recall there wasn't a huge amount of hype for it ahead of time. I don't think I would have liked it as much if there'd been all sorts of dramatic posing and shape-throwing and wild-eyed teeth-clenching and what-have-you.

Espilae
Nov 29, 2010

BOY, THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY

the gently caress did I just watch

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Jerusalem posted:

I loved the sections where Davros is talking about the Daleks as his "children", as well as admitting that he has zero control over them and glorying to the fact that they're holding out on exterminating Clara till she runs. I like the idea that at the end of his life and resigned to his fate (which I don't believe for a second) he's willing to just sit back and enjoy the fruits of his labor, and enjoy the fact his "kids" are doing so well.

I think it was you or someone else mentioned in the previous thread that Daleks used to say a whole bunch of things repeatedly and excitedly, not just "Exterminate". That's why the scene with the eye-stalk guy was kinda redeemed for me because they were all going "Secure the TARDIS! SECURE THE TARDIIIIS!"

Wheat Loaf posted:

I quite enjoyed that Davros's presence was fairly understated. He's just there and as far as I can recall there wasn't a huge amount of hype for it ahead of time. I don't think I would have liked it as much if there'd been all sorts of dramatic posing and shape-throwing and wild-eyed teeth-clenching and what-have-you.

Yeah also this. He's just sort of "well I'm old but I'm still able to hurt you, now go ahead and die before tea time".

computer parts fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 13:21

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



NarkyBark posted:

I have very little reaction to that episode, mainly due to the tonal whiplash. The guitar hero stuff felt entirely out of place with how the episode started. I feel like the comedy should have been left to Missy, I think her being nutty would've added enough humor in a way that would be more tonally pleasant.

Tonal whiplash is a great way to describe it, and it actually reminded me of a lot of the silliness we had in "The Wedding of River Song" which was just so bonkers and kitchen sink that it really fell flat for me.

I also noticed a couple of other disturbing tendencies that Moffat seems to be showing. First is the idea of the Doctor and Missy as "Magicians"--they are now just sorcerers with magic powers who wave a wand or black box and make tanks appear, travel through time without a TARDIS, stop planes, etc. This has been more and more on hand in the past few years. Sure, you can argue we don't need to see the sciency Macguffins or the boring logistics of the Doctor going to steal a tank and transport it to middle ages Britain or whatever, but I can't help but feel the old series was a lot more grounded in science fiction, and now it's just kinda Harry Potter With Aliens. Was there a good reason why we couldn't see the Master's TARDIS?

There's also an RTDesque thing where everyone has to look Ultra Cool all the time, like Captain Jack brooding on top of a building with his coat billowing out behind him or 10 trying way to hard to be flippant with the Ood before he went to their planet for the last time. The Doctor, Clara, and Missy are all constantly posing and mugging and just generally being over the top.

The last is one that I, as a long term hardcore fan am surprised to say, but I think Moffat is getting bogged down in old continuity. I never thought I'd say that, but the reviews of this episode have a constant refrain of "it's great for old, obsessed fans who know all the minutia of canon but not great for the casual viewer". Look, I absolutely HATE the idea of reboots and ignoring the past. I pumped my fist when the NA writers started slipping NA references in the BBC books. I cheered when RTD stopped being coy about the show not being a reboot in Season One. But between this and the older, more prickly Doctor, Moffat is basically setting up a perfect storm where he leaves and a new showrunner decides to "fix" everything by going in the complete opposite direction, ie "We're bringing back a young, sexy, Doctor who will have a very will they/won't they relationship with his companion, and we're going to make the show much more accessible to new viewers by jettisoning all the old references to the past! I've told the writers to leave out all the 30 year old fanwank canon nods and you aren't going to see the return of some one off monster from 1974 that nobody cares about but nerds!"

Attitude Indicator
Apr 3, 2009


Astroman posted:


The last is one that I, as a long term hardcore fan am surprised to say, but I think Moffat is getting bogged down in old continuity.

it's nothing to do with if you're a long term fan or not, all the references, fan-wank and heavily leaning on old consepts has turned into a detriment for the show.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

There isn't really any minutiae of canon in the episode, I don't once remember thinking "I wish I watched the old shows because I don't have any context for this". The closest anyone's going to come to that is Davros showing up with no introduction but Davros is one of those cultural osmosis things everyone knows about, like Darth Vader or Klingons or Vodka Martini Shaken Not Stirred.

Espilae
Nov 29, 2010

BOY, THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY

It is full of great lines though.


"How do we find him? How do we know what we're looking for?"
"Anachronisms. The slightest, tiniest-" (electric guitar riff in 1138) "..an-ach-ro-nisms."

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

Because if I tell you, you'll tell your friends, your friends are callin' me on the horn all the time, I gotta show up at shopping centers for openings and sign autographs and shit like that and it makes my life a *hell*. Okay? A living hell.


Fan of Britches

Maxwell Lord posted:

The whole tank party scene made me think of Rick Sanchez. Those two would really get along I think.

I don't think even Rick would be self obsessed enough to make his entrance by riding in on a tank playing his own opening theme song on an electric guitar.



2house2fly posted:

There isn't really any minutiae of canon in the episode, I don't once remember thinking "I wish I watched the old shows because I don't have any context for this". The closest anyone's going to come to that is Davros showing up with no introduction but Davros is one of those cultural osmosis things everyone knows about, like Darth Vader or Klingons or Vodka Martini Shaken Not Stirred.

There's a whole bunch of minutiae mentioned in passing (like the three different versions of Atlantis) but none of that was necessary to understand the story.

Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


2house2fly posted:

There isn't really any minutiae of canon in the episode, I don't once remember thinking "I wish I watched the old shows because I don't have any context for this". The closest anyone's going to come to that is Davros showing up with no introduction but Davros is one of those cultural osmosis things everyone knows about, like Darth Vader or Klingons or Vodka Martini Shaken Not Stirred.

And there's a fairly lengthy scene where the Doctor explains to Clara exactly who Davros is. The clips from the classic series aren't confusing, either, unless you literally didn't know that there wasn't a classic series. They're seasoning.

It is a bit weird that Davros seems to have the classic series on DVD, though. I think voice clips might have been sufficient there.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Snowglobe of Doom posted:

There's a whole bunch of minutiae mentioned in passing (like the three different versions of Atlantis) but none of that was necessary to understand the story.

The worst part might be the Sisterhood that the snake guy goes second but all you need to infer from that is "they're hiding the Doctor".

chaosbreather
Dec 9, 2001

Wry and wise,
but also very sexual.


This episode had such an unbelievable amount of padding. I don't know who kidnapped the editor but holy poo poo someone cut. You could end up with a pretty good fifteen minutes, paired with the second part and there's a good half hour, ship that.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



Overnight ratings: 4.58 million, a 21.2 % share (but it was still 2nd for the day behind only The X-Factor). Ouch. That's not just low for an opener, that's low for NewWho as a whole. I would not want to be anywhere near Steven Moffat until the Appreciation Index appears tomorrow. (And next week it's going head-to-head with England playing in the RWC, so prepare for a mass round of panicked pants-making GBS threads when the sub-4 million overnight number comes in and there's no final number for this week.) If you wish to take up your pitchforks and banish your bog roll against GMS, that's more than enough evidence to do so. On the other hand, if you want to stay calm, lines to take are:

"The X-Factor has also lost a couple of million over this time last year."
"The consolidated ratings should now include iPlayer views, which they never have done before, and that should provide a big boost to Who because it's always been one of the most-viewed shows on the iPlayer."
"We'll be fine as long as overseas ratings remain strong enough for overseas sales to be a cash cow for BBC Worldwide."
"It was still 2nd for Saturday evening behind only the X-Factor, not a lot they can do if viewership is down across the board."

Brave hearts. We're nowhere near in danger of cancellation, yet.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Fans always know better than the creators.


2house2fly posted:

There isn't really any minutiae of canon in the episode, I don't once remember thinking "I wish I watched the old shows because I don't have any context for this". The closest anyone's going to come to that is Davros showing up with no introduction but Davros is one of those cultural osmosis things everyone knows about, like Darth Vader or Klingons or Vodka Martini Shaken Not Stirred.

I'm not sure I'd say Davros is that much of a big figure, you kind of have to go through a couple layers of Doctor Who knowledge to get to him. I always looked at the four seasons of RTD Who as introducing the biggest villainous features of Doctor Who in descending order of notoriety, and Davros does come out behind the Master, at the start of the figures you probably don't know too well if you've never watched the show.

But at the same time, they give pretty good context. Sure, if you don't know Davros' name then the opening is a little lost on you, but one look at him and you recognize that he's sitting in a Dalek-style seat so he's probably involved with them, and the fact he's really old and weary and the Doctor gets shaken by his name clues you in that he's probably an authority or origin figure of some sort before anyone even says it. The clips from earlier confrontations give you confirmation that he's an old enemy of the Doctor (and the fact we get a good look at both Baker and Tennant, the most publicly-recognizable Doctors), but they aren't depicted in a way that requires you to know what actually happened.

Skaro could be a little lost on you, because we haven't really seen it over the revival, but I think the screeching Dalek probably gives you the evidence to know what it is pretty quickly.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 13:58

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Modern nerd poo poo in general seems to be obsessed with "cool moments". Same as the Avengers (especially the most recent one) and it just makes it unwatchable for me.

computer parts posted:

I think it was you

No!!!

Attitude Indicator
Apr 3, 2009


Snowglobe of Doom posted:

There's a whole bunch of minutiae mentioned in passing (like the three different versions of Atlantis) but none of that was necessary to understand the story.

which means they're pointless clutter.
A nod and a reference here and there is fine, but there's not a single orignial thought in the episode.

Cleretic posted:


Skaro could be a little lost on you, because we haven't really seen it over the revival, but I think the screeching Dalek probably gives you the evidence to know what it is pretty quickly.

Skaro was in episdoe 7.1
the point isn't "I don't understand this references," the point is "why is this loaded with old poo poo." Every single moment of the episode relies on "oh poo poo, it's that thing again!"

Attitude Indicator fucked around with this message at Sep 20, 2015 around 14:02

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Attitude Indicator posted:

the point isn't "I don't understand this references," the point is "why is this loaded with old poo poo." Every single moment of the episode relies on "oh poo poo, it's that thing again!"

This complaint is funny because for the past few years the complaint has been "why is Moffat referencing stuff we never saw in previous episodes and expecting us to take it at face value?"

It sounds like you just don't like referencing things that happen off screen, whether they happened in a previous episode or not.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


computer parts posted:

This complaint is funny because for the past few years the complaint has been "why is Moffat referencing stuff we never saw in previous episodes and expecting us to take it at face value?"

No it hasn't

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

MrL_JaKiri posted:

No it hasn't

Yeah it has. Like during Time of the Doctor people were bitching about the random Space Church that came out of nowhere.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003



computer parts posted:

Yeah it has. Like during Time of the Doctor people were bitching about the random Space Church that came out of nowhere.

The bitching about that was because the doctor's long relationship with the Space Church and Mother Superior was a key part of the payoff and explanation of the Doctor's arc up to there. Payoffs shouldn't involve elements out of nowhere. This is a fairly basic fact of narrative.

MillennialVulcan
Feb 11, 2008

(Thought-ful Croak)


I want to know why Twelve went back to Skaro in the first place or if he even realized he had.

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Attitude Indicator
Apr 3, 2009


computer parts posted:

This complaint is funny because for the past few years the complaint has been "why is Moffat referencing stuff we never saw in previous episodes and expecting us to take it at face value?"

what?

computer parts posted:

It sounds like you just don't like referencing things that happen off screen, whether they happened in a previous episode or not.

what?
i don't like the lack of originality. like I said, every single element in this story is old and used. hey it's davros. hey it's the master. hey it's karn. it's skaro. it's the shadow proclamatinon. it's unit. it's atlantis. it's tom baker. mccoy. old daleks. human daleks. the doctor's going to die again.

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