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Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



"Every time I come to this planet!"

I agree with a lot of the thoughts ITT, the episode did seem to be a lot of big setpieces, over the top montages that were written as cool scenes first and strung together in a barely there plot. Missy was fantastic, Davros was fantastic, but then again all the individual scenes were fantastic on their own.

Over the years people have pointed out that a lot of the ideas Moffat has used have been things he's been sitting on since the 90s or earlier. It's entirely possible that he might have run out of ideas, and his solution is just to do...this.

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Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


NarkyBark posted:

I have very little reaction to that episode, mainly due to the tonal whiplash. The guitar hero stuff felt entirely out of place with how the episode started. I feel like the comedy should have been left to Missy, I think her being nutty would've added enough humor in a way that would be more tonally pleasant.

Tonal whiplash is a great way to describe it, and it actually reminded me of a lot of the silliness we had in "The Wedding of River Song" which was just so bonkers and kitchen sink that it really fell flat for me.

I also noticed a couple of other disturbing tendencies that Moffat seems to be showing. First is the idea of the Doctor and Missy as "Magicians"--they are now just sorcerers with magic powers who wave a wand or black box and make tanks appear, travel through time without a TARDIS, stop planes, etc. This has been more and more on hand in the past few years. Sure, you can argue we don't need to see the sciency Macguffins or the boring logistics of the Doctor going to steal a tank and transport it to middle ages Britain or whatever, but I can't help but feel the old series was a lot more grounded in science fiction, and now it's just kinda Harry Potter With Aliens. Was there a good reason why we couldn't see the Master's TARDIS? :colbert:

There's also an RTDesque thing where everyone has to look Ultra Cool all the time, like Captain Jack brooding on top of a building with his coat billowing out behind him or 10 trying way to hard to be flippant with the Ood before he went to their planet for the last time. The Doctor, Clara, and Missy are all constantly posing and mugging and just generally being over the top.

The last is one that I, as a long term hardcore fan am surprised to say, but I think Moffat is getting bogged down in old continuity. I never thought I'd say that, but the reviews of this episode have a constant refrain of "it's great for old, obsessed fans who know all the minutia of canon but not great for the casual viewer". Look, I absolutely HATE the idea of reboots and ignoring the past. I pumped my fist when the NA writers started slipping NA references in the BBC books. I cheered when RTD stopped being coy about the show not being a reboot in Season One. But between this and the older, more prickly Doctor, Moffat is basically setting up a perfect storm where he leaves and a new showrunner decides to "fix" everything by going in the complete opposite direction, ie "We're bringing back a young, sexy, Doctor who will have a very will they/won't they relationship with his companion, and we're going to make the show much more accessible to new viewers by jettisoning all the old references to the past! I've told the writers to leave out all the 30 year old fanwank canon nods and you aren't going to see the return of some one off monster from 1974 that nobody cares about but nerds!" :suicide:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Burkion posted:

I have a question


The gently caress was the Doctor doing on Skaro in the ancient past?

He has near total control over the TARDIS now. The gently caress was he doing there

Plus did he really "make" Davros, or did he change history? So either Davros became an rear end in a top hat for some other reason, or like the Master and the Drums (theconstantsoundofdrumscan'tyouHEARthem) he "always" had an old sonic screwdriver stashed in his wheelchair and had once seen the TARDIS but totally forgot until today.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Jerusalem posted:

I don't think the implication was supposed to be that the Doctor "created" Davros, the conditions he grew up in did a fine job of that, just that this gave the extra added wrinkle of the older Davros now having recovered the "memory" of meeting him at that pivotal moment, understanding the fresh context and realizing it was something he could goad the Doctor about.

This isn't a predestination paradox where the Doctor ALWAYS met Davros as a child and had this impactful meeting with him, the Doctor never met Davros as a child until the 12th Doctor actually meet him, creating a new memory of an event that hadn't happened before*. Hell, the 12th Doctor himself isn't supposed to exist, initially when the 11th Doctor died at Trenzalore he stayed dead for good. Hell hell, Davros initially just created the Daleks and was killed by them, end of story. Then the 4th Doctor got sent back to interfere in their creation and inadvertently gave Davros new information to incorporate into his designs.

* This is one of the reasons that the Time Lords want to keep from getting involved directly in the affairs of the rest of the universe, poo poo gets confusing!

I hope you're right, because then the entire thing becomes not about How The Doctor Created Space-Hitler Davros, but how Davros caught the Doctor breaking his moral code in a moment of weakness when nobody else was around.

Knowing the way things have been, I think it's gonna be the opposite though. :(

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Gaz-L posted:

Slightly off the current track, I nabbed that recent 12th Doctor book that was mentioned earlier. The one by Gary Russell, with Twelve and Benny. And he somehow got BBC books to sign off on publishing a Bernice Summerfield book with the Doctor Who logo on the cover, because the first third of the book is basically just a Benny story with a brief cameo by the Doctor in between Benny and her family mucking about across space and time. It feels a little too self-consiously going for tongue-in-cheek space opera at times, but Russell has an ear for Benny's voice, obviously, and also manages to do a decent job distinguishing her from River by focusing on her tendency to gather a found family. (And her more 'mum' side, with comments about how she's approaching middle age and embarrassing her son by trying to help him pick up boys.)

I still have to pick that book up, but that's a fair point about the difference between Benny and River. Despite their both being snarky diary loving space archaeologists, Benny is a lot more 3-dimensional than River...she has her hangups, but she seems a lot more genuine. With River it's all about looking cool and posing (a common theme I guess) to compensate for the fact that the whole first part of her life was a lie and she was programmed to fall for and kill the Doctor. River seems a lot more tragic and broken, whereas Benny is just kinda roguish and you know in the end she'll find some sort of happiness. River is destined to spend a lot of her adult life in jail and die in a computer.

I feel like Benny, over her time in the NAs and the audios has taken on much more of a life of her own under many authors, while River is just a closed loop.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


PriorMarcus posted:

If this really was like a RTD script there definitely would've been a joke about his brother being Colony Narrf - who'd be gay.

"Lots of planets have a Narrf!"



CobiWann posted:

Mark Gatiss, Toby Whithouse, Chris Chibnall, Nicholas Briggs...there a lot of options out there when Moffat steps down.

Any of these would be acceptable to me, especially Nick Briggs, who I maintain is one of the best showrunners in Doctor Who already. I just love the fact that the show is by/for/and of the fans at this point and I don't want to lose that with some non or casual fan coming in who thinks Geordi Captain Jack is an alien.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



This is literally the most excited I've been since at least the 50th, maybe even since 2005. :dance: :swoon:

Jerusalem posted:

I always hoped they'd get Tennant to do Big Finish Doctor Who stories, but never in my wildest dreams did I think they'd get the best revival Who companion back on board as well. loving awesome.

Yeah this is just the goddamn icing on the cake. If you'd asked me who I'd want back, it would always be Donna over Rose or anyone else.

Of course, we can also get some Captain Jack/10 action as well (but not the kind he or you are thinking :colbert: )

It's good to know David Tennant's constant pestering of Big Finish and the BBC has finally paid off!

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Or alternately, every companion gets a one shot with 6!

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Ya'll are scrubs for spoiling that Remembrance had Davros, cause that was a helluva reveal. :colbert:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Strom Cuzewon posted:

For a minute I was convinced we'd see dozens of Kaleds punching their way out of Dalek shells.

Same. Or Davros regenerated into Julian Bleach without makeup, ranting about the Kaled Master Race taking over. It actually seemed though, that Moffat went out of his way to avoid using the words "Thal" or "Kaled" in these episodes. Even to the point of having young Davros ask "Are you The Enemy?" not "Are you a Thal?" I think the story of Davros' twisted love for his "children" and his being responsible for their killing billions has been played out, but they never touch on him betraying his own people and that could be explored more.

Good stuff though:
-Missy being Missy
-Putting Oswald in a Dalek (again)
-Davros going all Borg Queen on the floor
-Davros going all Darth Anakin (wait, you mean his eyes have just been closed this whole time?!)
-T Bakes/Hartnell cameos! :swoon:

Hamfisted stuff:
-Wait, you mean his eyes have just been closed this whole time?! Clearly a poor attempt at retconning the makeup job on Davros' face after all these years and trying to explain why his eyes were just shut and painted black
-MIssy "learning" from the Doctor how he is always able to cheat certain death by being optimistic. Because it's not like the Master has ever cheated certain death :what:
-The "how Daleks talk" scene, while funny, was a hamfisted attempt to retcon why Daleks just shout "Exterminate' and a few other catchphrases all the time. Really Moffat, that was what you were worried about explaining, not delving more into Davros' past as a Kaled?

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Burkion posted:

Also why the gently caress would the Daleks care a little bit about Davros right now? Last we saw him, he was their Pet who got to stay in the basement so long as he didn't gently caress with anything that they didn't approve of. Now they're all DAVROS MUST BE PROTECTED again for no drat reason even though well written Daleks have never exactly gelled with him trying to be their leader, because he is inferior to them.

I'll defend this, because what I got out of it was that Davros convinced the Daleks he had this awesome plan to upgrade them all with Time Lord DNA so they went along with it and pretended to respect him again to the Doctor. If you listen to what the Supreme Dalek is shouting when they think Davros is leaving, he is in charge, not Davros.


Rhyno posted:

So remember that time when Skaro was destroyed?

It got better. :colbert:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


MrL_JaKiri posted:

It features Ms Heriot's most minimalist outfit, at least on the bottom half.



"Don't stare at her legs don't stare at her legs don't stare at her legs c'mon Pat don't stare at her legs..."

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


egon_beeblebrox posted:

I will watch it if that happens.

I will only watch it if that happens...

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


MisterBibs posted:

The Time War being depicted in the W/10/11 crossover was a Time War after all the temporal jiggery pokery was exhausted, leading to the final battle being a much more practical boots-on-the-ground slog.

I do agree with you going forward, though, cuz the meat and potatoes of the Last Great Time War is undepictable in the linear time we live in.

I kinda feel you, but it doesn't really bother me because:

1) The War Doctor novel was great

2) I'm more in it for Hurt's characterization than I am exposition and continuity


Honestly, I am not sure if I'm more excited about this than I am about the 10/Donna stuff (I guess for now it's this, since 10/Donna isn't confirmed).

I'm still kinda peeved about BF closing their forums. It was nice to get some other thoughts besides here on audios, even though I really like the audio discussion here. And it was really nice for the Dark Shadows and Blake's 7 discussion.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


qntm posted:

I don't know, cancellation is the Doctor's oldest and greatest nemesis.

"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!"
\/


dun dun DA dun! dun dun DA dun!

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Jerusalem posted:

Well when he pulled the Time Lord Victorious stuff, it came back to bite him on the rear end pretty spectacularly. Happily things went much better in Day of the Doctor, though they were far more careful about maintaining the illusion that everything happened the way everybody always thought it did, whereas in Waters of Mars he was thumbing his nose in the web of time/the universe's face and saying,"I SET THE RULES NOW!"

I thought he was extremely close to going all Time Lord Victorious there, and one could argue depending on how much making this woman immortal bites him in the rear end he may have again. He was once again saying "I can do whatever I want, who can stop me?!"

As far as the Caecilius explanation goes, I have a question about that. If he chose that face to remind him of how he can always save one person, even if he can't save a city, why then of all times? Remember 11 had just spent 800 years selflessly sacrificing what he thought was the end of his final life hanging around Christmas Town protecting one planet, maybe even just one village against the entire universe. Why of all times did he feel he needed reminding of that lesson? He'd embodied it for centuries.


After The War posted:

Arguing about Doctor Who with someone who works on the show... we are living in storied times. :magical:

echoplex, let me take this opportunity as a 30 year fan who has the opportunity to weigh in to someone who works on the show to say I for one love the current console room. :colbert:

I really liked 11's first one, but I get why they had to ditch it. I wasn't happy at first but the new one has grown on me and it's probably my favorite of the revival.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


I'm not sure how it may or may not relate to a "Clara is dead" theory but I've said it before and I'll say it again--RTD and Moffat have completely ruined character exits with their "Part Time Companion" and "Universal Cell Phone" concepts.

In the old show, a companion's arc was they were whisked away from their lives, their family (if they had one), by the Doctor, traveled, and then decided to settle down back home or elsewhere and leave. They couldn't "phone home" easily, they couldn't just live a full life and then party with the Doctor on weekends.

Because they basically do exactly that now, for them to really leave, it usually takes death or an almost impossible barrier to keep the Doctor away (and usually the barriers are the same level of "impossible" that could be solved by the Doctor in any ordinary episode).

-Rose was trapped in a parallel timeline, supposedly almost impossible for the Doctor to breach
-Donna's head would explode if she remembered her time with the Doctor
-Amy and Rory were trapped somewhere in time where it was supposedly impossible for the Doctor to find them and then they died
-River died

Of the long term companions, only Martha and Jack chose to leave, and in Jack's case he spent a century desperately trying to get back to the Doctor, was rejected, then half heartedly invited back aboard, only to realize his new home planet needed him, he must stay.

Clara has no reason to leave. She can work, live, have boyfriends, see her parents, all while traveling with the Doctor as a hobby. Moffat has almost set it up that only her death can stop her from being a companion. Which kinda sucks.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


twistedmentat posted:

I really wish I had met Tony Curran after that episode had aired because I would have loved to tell him directly how excellent he was in that episode. But I did tell him how much I liked him in Boardwalk Empire.

If you haven't seen him as Datak Tarr in Defiance you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Ofaloaf posted:

Sam Swift ought to be the next companion.

I thought that just meant "eventually you and Jack will exist in the same time period".

It was a double entendre, and a funny one at that. I'm sure we'll have a Torchwood audio where Jack meets up with her and they fight or sleep together. Or both. :allears: I did appreciate the fact that they brought him up, since he's a notable immortal human who was also "created" inadvertently by the Doctor.

It would be interesting if we had a Torchwood set in the past where Jack is working for Torchwood trying to find the Doctor while pretending to go along with their ostensible mission of finding and stopping the Doctor, and runs into Ashildr who was also trying to oppose the Doctor. Bonus points if it's Pertwee or something.

Come to think of it, they need to do a Torchwood/Jack series detailing times in the 20th century he nearly ran into a "wrong" Doctor and had to stop Torchwood from killing the Doctor as an inside man in Torchwood...without meeting him out of order. I have to imagine things were a bit awkward in the 70s (80s) when the Doctor was working on Earth for UNIT but Torchwood was also there and actively trying to get him.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Neowyrm posted:

I actually thought it was quite weird that the crowd was totally okay with her killing that dude and opening up a portal to hell fire, apparently

It was a very blase reaction from a people who's normal reaction would have been to kill the witch people immediately for the magic fire and bringing a guy back to life. Sam Swift would be on a pyre, not joking with the hangman in the bar afterwards. The totes cool attitude by the villagers was very anachronistic and it was jarring, but not the only thing. One of the soldiers was a black guy, and I thought "OK, I guess that could have happened in some rare circumstance" but then I noticed a bunch of the villagers were black or Indian, ie they looked like modern London.

Now you might say I'm racist for not saying "well why CAN'T they be diverse? Check and mate bigot!" :smug: But I remember in the past Doctor Who was very sober looking at the realism of our history with race and acceptance in things like Ace seeing the "NO COLOUREDS" sign in 1963 or Martha having to deal with being a black maid in pre WWI England. Now Doctor Who takes place in some sort of chill quasi-modern world in all eras, which I don't like. When they show characters of varied ethnicities, sexualities, or with disabilities existing in a positive, integrated "no big deal" way in the future, the contrast is somewhat muted when that goes on in the historical past.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Trin Tragula posted:

As long as in any given story they're treating "The Past" in the same way that Shakespeare treated The Past, sure, historical accuracy is not important. That part 2 was set in The Past, and when exactly it is is in no way important, so fine, cast whoever you want. I can (for instance) go to the Globe and watch them doing Julius Caesar and it doesn't matter that they've got black actors as Cassius and Mark Antony; everything else about "The Past" is so far abstracted that the casting doesn't matter.

Where racially-accurate casting becomes important is when the exact period is important somehow to the story, which Doctor Who does far, far more rarely than you might think. Take Human Nature, for instance. Even if you switch in another companion for Martha and ditch her racism subplot, it now detracts greatly from the period setting if you have a couple of black kids as background students at the school and an Indian guy as the mathematics master; the exact period in that story is important enough that everything has to be right, and casting it race-blind then becomes as jarringly anachronistic as giving them all mobile phones.

If the importance of the casting becomes not offending the actors and making sure to cast a diverse quota of people in a mix of roles of good/bad and having people of color and women in power in all eras, then it's safe to say Human Nature could not be made the same way in 2015, at least not raising the same questions. I think in a 2015 version you would have black students, and Indian math teacher, and Martha's skin color would not have been remarked on at all. She'd probably be cast as another teacher at the school.

It's odd, because we've had these arguments before in these threads and I almost hate to bring it up, but I feel I'm arguing on the other side now--whereas before if someone brought up race I'd say they were seeing racism where it didn't exist, now I'm saying that omitting it as a subject is worse and everyone's like "but what about being racist to the actors you're casting?!" If the BBC does a casting call for "English village in the 1600s" and specifies it be all white then they could be accused of racism to actors? Or alienating non-white child viewers who will feel sad that there is nobody that looks like them in that village? Surely hiding from children the fact that we had some less enlightened periods of history is worse? A Human Nature which tells the story of an artificially diverse British public school in the 1910s is if anything a more insidious form of whitewashing in my opinion--it's giving kids a false narrative of the past which makes them incapable of understanding how bad things were and how bad they could be. It's like saying racism basically didn't exist.

I also don't think the dumbing down of Doctor Who into a historically inaccurate fantasy is something to be celebrating. :(



jivjov posted:

This is probably the 10/Donna audios confirmation.

Good, maybe BF will finally reopen the goddamn forums.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Toph Bei Fong posted:

If you want the Doctor vs. Cthluhu, there's always this novel



which also features Sherlock Holmes. It's got an audio adaptation coming this December. I enjoyed it, but then I enjoyed most of the Seven/Ace/Benny line of books.

This is a top notch novel, highly recommended.


Also that K-9 movie sounds pants on head retarded. Omega? Really?

Only way I'd watch is if he was played by Peter Davison. :colbert:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Very excited about the 10/Donna audios!

I can't see how these won't sell like gangbusters, and I fully expect 10 to go into at least a T Bakes amount of output per year.

Also this means there's no real reason we can't have Matt Smith audios. I'd also be shocked if they didn't do a Jenny series at some point, when Moffat figures out if she will or won't be back on screen and what her journey would be to get there. I mean if her father and husband are doing audios...

The other great thing is that it's pretty much a lock that within a year or two of him leaving the screen, Capaldi will probably be doing audios so as the Ood say, the story never ends. :allears:

A few years ago I had a mental wishlist of stuff that I'd love to see from BF, and while the list is constantly updated, they've delivered on almost all of it--4th Doctor, a great Anniversary, bringing back The Valeyard, full cast adventures in the first 3 Doctors' eras, and now New Series Adventures with Captain Jack, River, and 10. Pretty much the only things I can think of would be getting David Bradley and Sean Pertwee to do 1 and 3. At this point, I'd literally say anything is possible for BF.

I haven't been able to listen lately because my fm transmitter in my car broke, but I have a new one on the way so I have a lot to buy! I've been able to do a rewatch of enough of Blake's 7 to feel comfortable diving into those audios. Also looking forward to The Prisoner.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


side_burned posted:

I don't know where else to ask this but how is non Doctor Who stuff Big Finish does? I saw that Adrian Paul has done some Highlander audios are those any good?

The only other stuff I've listened to is Dark Shadows, but it's very good, and I can say that as a fan of the original series. The show runner is Joseph Lidster of all people, but somehow his style works well. The only issue I have with him is his strange reluctance (on a soap opera?!) to recast any of the old actors...though for some reason they put Barnabas in a "new" body so he was effectively recast. But pretty much anything with Quentin, Angelique, or Trask is liquid gold.

Briggs is redoing "The Prisoner" and it seems to be a recast retelling of the original set in the 60s. If he can nail the vibe of the era, the show, and McGoohan's iconoclast 6, it will be solid.

As I said above, I haven't heard the Blake's 7 stuff but I've heard it's good...and with people like Paul Darrow and Michael Keating, how can it not be? They got a lot of the old cast back so there's a lot of potential there.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Mr Beens posted:

I think you are getting a bit carried away with future certainties based on just this announcement of 3 stories with Tennant.

I can't see how they could NOT plan on doing more with the new series. It's not like they're just gonna pack it in and say "whelp, that was fun." I also can't see these stories not selling well, unless I greatly underestimate the overlap of new series/10 fans and BF listeners.


MrL_JaKiri posted:

Why would you want that? Why are people still assuming that Moffat wanted her to reappear when she didn't die at the end, rather than just saying it was hacky to have her die?

She's a charismatic Time Lady running around the universe having adventures, so there's a lot of stories to tell. As an actress, she'd be well acquainted with the process and people having heard all about it from her family, so she probably would have a good vibe about working with BF. And if Moffat really isn't planning on doing anything with her, it'd be good to do SOMETHING with her. She's also a blank slate as far as characterization, so you can go in a ton of directions.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


The guitar and the shades work for me in a meta way, because they symbolize Capaldi's past as a rocker and act as a cool balance to his obsession with past early Doctors. Without them, his homages to 1-4 in costuming and attitude would be overdone. With them he's his own Doctor.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Dabir posted:

I don't hate Delta and the Bannermen!

I've never seen Delta and the Bannermen.

Believe it or not...same. :negative:

That one week when it aired on PBS back in the 80s I missed it, and never had the chance to see it again since. Well I guess I could go to Dailymotion, but subsequent reviews have made me less than interested in taking the effort...

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Eiba posted:

Another interesting point that I just realized... There were no major male characters in that whole episode besides the Doctor. And that dude who wouldn't shoot the obvious Zygon, I guess, but he was kind of minor.

Everyone in every important role was a woman. And most of the minor roles too (drone operator, New Mexico cop, etc).

I thought that was kind of neat. Even if it turns out they were actually all Zygons.

Turns out all the women are Zygons and Harness is actually an anti feminist. Part 2 is a thinly veiled pro-MRA episode.

:vince:



Sober posted:

Do Zygons traditionally just all look the same? Cause that did not help with any point they were trying to make, good or bad.

Wow, just wow. Mods, please ban this racist shitlord.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Wolfechu posted:

Two things I'm taking away from that episode, having just watched it:

1) There's no way, no loving way, that Kate Lethbridge Stewart was a Zygon imposter by the end of the episode. At some suitably dramatic point next week, we'll find out it really is Kate, pretending to be a Zygon imposter.

2) They can carry on with the "Doctor Funkenstein" type running gag for quite some time as far as I'm concerned.

I just think I may have realized the twist--at the end of Day of the Doctor, there were 2 Osgoods...were there still 2 Kates?

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Jerusalem posted:

At the end of the Zygon subplot in Day of the Doctor, there's two of everyone because none of them have any idea that if they are human or Zygon and the Doctor won't restore their memories until they come to a peace agreement. We were left to presume that once it was over the Zygons went back to being Zygons/taking on different human forms as a part of the settlement. They know they're Zygons, the humans know that they're humans, and everybody has had their own identity restored.

We learn in this episode that the two Osgoods chose not to differentiate between each other after the peace settlement was reached, and the Doctor was impressed enough to offer them the "nightmare scenario" because he felt that they truly represented the best intentions of the peace treaty. Everything said suggests that the Osgoods were unique in this situation, and thus there wasn't still a second Kate or any of the other UNIT crew who were present after the treaty was signed.

But there could still be two Kates. My theory is the twist will be Kate was always a Zygon, so when that one tried to convert her it imploded due to ERROR ERROR.




Boy, would late 80s me be confused about THAT picture!*



















































"Why is the Coach from the Wonder Years in a photo with Dr. Crusher and Doctor Who?" :confused:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Random Stranger posted:

I think the real question here is if Talons is more racist than The Celestial Toymaker.

I remember to this day the moment I found out a couple years ago that the "Celestial" Toymaker wasn't referring to some sort of Space Toymaker, but the Al Swearingen style name for Chinese, and that his Mandarin costume wasn't just a random costuming choice and I was like :aaaaa: "Wow, that is incredibly racist." :drat:

I had just never made the connection before, and now I can never unsee it.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Jerusalem posted:

Guess who only just figured this out right now :doh:

You're welcome. :smug:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Well everything about the Ashildr arc seems to indicate the Doctor is about to get a big comeuppance based on his actions, so I can see where Clara going gonzo could be a big part of that.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


CobiWann posted:

I’m going to have to get high. Be rid of this thread though.

:golfclap:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


echoplex posted:

Well, no-one knows more about how the production is made than you, so let's go with this.

:iceburn:

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Jsor posted:

I only have Marco.

Polo!


As far as Sandifer goes, I really liked his analysis of the old series, but once he hit the "Wilderness Years" he was so completely going towards a conclusion that the new series, particularly the Tennant era, was going to be the apex of the show and what everything was building to, that it colored his writing. It ruined the premise of good, deep criticism and picking apart episodes when he tried to cobble together some false meta-narrative. And of course, part of that narrative was to completely dismiss Big Finish as a dead end product of a time gone by that was imperfect but had a small part in the creation of Perfect Modern Doctor Who, the Platonic Ideal of Who. Granted, I checked out at that point so if he's still going he might have changed up a bit...

In other news I've been trying new things with Big Finish. I listened to my first B7, Fractures. I wanted a full cast audio so I started there. It was a great start. Michael Keating was particularly good, the others were certainly passable as their old selves, except (most disappointingly) Avon. I was really counting on Paul Darrow to channel that old Avon magic but he seemed to have only one emotion--edgy sardonic. I'm in the middle of rewatching the show, up to mid Season 2, and Avon had a lot more range than that. This was like Avon turned up to 11 for an entire episode. But I know that was an early episode for them, so I'm sure it wlll get better. What was perfect though was the cast interaction, the writing--Justin Richards, unsurprisingly nails the classic dialogue of the show and the voices of the characters. And it was a fine use of the medium.

After hearing how amazingly good Jago and Litefoot are I started with Mahogany Murders, and it was really good. A bit clunky in the exposition of them telling each other the story, but I imagine that changes as the range goes on...I realize that was more of a "pilot." I'm going to look forward to putting them into my rotation. And I'm currently listening to The Yes Men. It's always a guaranteed fantastic episode when you have Frazier playing Two, and the new guy they recast as Ben is solid.

I'd like to try the Tim Trealor 3rd Doctor audios soon. Kinda wish they'd do them as standalone stories and not a package.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Cliff Racer posted:

Apparently he really, really liked Kill the Moon. To the extent that he called it "THE Doctor Who episode" or some other such thing.

:ughh: Well that says it all I guess...


Edit:

quote:

This was the single best episode of Doctor Who ever.

I am using that sentence with perhaps an odd degree of precision. It is better at being Doctor Who than any previous episode, given that so much of what makes it work is that it is an episode of Doctor Who. It is unapologetic, and indeed triumphant about pulling tricks that only Doctor Who can do. “The moon is an egg.” I mean, that’s the most gloriously trolling reveal imaginable. It all but invokes Poe’s Law on a particular segment of criticism of Doctor Who.

:vince:

I think his problem is he's too close to the current episodes to be able to evaluate them as soberly as he did the stuff from 40 years ago. He's trying to judge this week's episode with the same weight and critical lens of history that he would for something from 1978 or whatever and he doesn't have the perspective.

Also he's a pretentious wanker.

Astroman fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Nov 19, 2015

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


CobiWann posted:

I’ve been enjoying the Survivors range. It’s bleak without being “dark and edgy” and an interesting take on the end of the world, British style.

I’ve also been working my way through the Frankenstein play with Arthur Darvill and Nicholas Briggs. It’s based on the novel and it’s pretty well done so far. I have to listen to it in chunks since it’s based on the novel and takes a bit to get going.

In the same vein, apparently Big Finish is going to release an audio play of the novel for Dracula with none other than Mark Gatiss as the Count…

Well I couldn't think of a better person to play Jonathan Harker than Arthur Darvill, they should cast him for that one too! The only reason I haven't jumped on Survivors is because I never saw the original series, but I DID see the remake with Paterson Joseph and I really liked it. If they'd have done audios with that cast, continuing that story, I'd have listened ages ago. As it is the one they're doing now sounds interesting, and it's on my radar, but it's low on the radar at this point.

Going to be all over The Prisoner when that hits though!

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


CobiWann posted:

Hey, guys, look what I found an in print copy of!



It came with this stack of free books...



Those are some great stories too. Too bad you didn't get Ghost Light, the novel actually expands on the episode quite a bit.


I thought that was a pretty darn good episode. The only thing I would have liked to see was some sort of callback to her time with Smith, maybe a Trenzalore reference. She's been through a lot with him, saved his life, was there when he was dying, etc. But as I suspected, the only way to get a companion out of the Doctor's life is something completely and irrevocably fatal. I thought maybe they'd give him some sort of out, like her walking out the door and him not seeing her die, so he could pull some timey-wimey shenanigans, but, nope.


Gaz-L posted:

I actually liked this version more than most. There's precedent for the Doctor doing apparently very nasty stuff when he's not considering himself to be the Doctor, so threatening Me with "The Doctor's not here!" worked for me.

Yeah, that was pretty aces. Brought back shades of the War Doctor (especially with the "Don't be a Warrior"), the Timelord Victorious, Valeyard, etc. I liked the use of Ashildr too, and how she went from totally in control to very, very cowed and contrite.

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Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Organza Quiz posted:

I really enjoyed that! Big emotional scenes in this show usually fall flat for me for one reason or another (especially 11's regeneration scenes) but this one absolutely got me, even though like everyone else I was pretty sure Clara was going to die this season.

Here's a tumblr post from Sarah Dollard that she wrote a couple of days ago about how much of the last sequence was her writing and how much was Moffat. I think it's particularly interesting considering our tendency in this thread to attribute any big season-arc scenes at the end of episodes to Moffat's writing.

I'll echo what was said earlier ITT, that it was 100x better the send off then she would have gotten last year, had they not changed the Xmas ending at the last minute.


Burkion posted:

So

First and foremost

You're letting Cybermen come in here you are a moron that's almost as bad as letting Daleks in what the gently caress Me- this place is going to end tragically


Second- this was a pretty good episode of Doctor Who. One of the best in the last few seasons.


And not JUST because Clara died!

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD WHICH OLD WITCH THE WICKED WITCH DING DONG THE WICKED WITCH IS DEAD

I cannot explain why I've gotten so fed up with Clara lately. She's just been very annoying and self important and a lot of season 8 did not sit well with me. I'm not literally happy she's gone, she's not Adric or anything, but I was not at all sad that she died. Mostly because yeah she hit the nail on the head, she's had a death wish this entire season and Dear God I'm glad she got what she wanted!

And it's because of her own stupid mistake too. Go Clara.

As annoying as Clara was, she will never, ever be as insufferable as Tooth and Claw era Rose. :colbert:

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