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cupachabra posted:your avatar this is loving lame man
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Dec 31, 2015 13:38
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Where can I read/watch more cartel stuff? There was a pretty good thread about it ages ago but I have no idea where it's gone. I would recommend four books: Murder City by Charles Bowden El Sicario by Anonymous El Narco by Ioan Grillo Midnight In Mexico by Alfredo Corchado
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Dec 31, 2015 15:59
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Where can I read/watch more cartel stuff? There was a pretty good thread about it ages ago but I have no idea where it's gone. I've been trying and failing to get to a screening of Cartel Land, a documentary about the cartels and their opponents. The reviews have been very positive and the trailer looks cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5bpPfltOI May have to wait for a home video release.
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Dec 31, 2015 23:46
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Where can I read/watch more cartel stuff? There was a pretty good thread about it ages ago but I have no idea where it's gone.
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Dec 31, 2015 23:48
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What do we suppose is the thematic significance of Emily Blunt's character not having a family? Throughout the movie is filled with scenes of and references to families, and we hear plenty of characters asked if they are married and/or have children - as far as I'm aware, Blunt is the only character who answers in the negative, in a moment that felt very significant to me. I was thinking this was going to manifest in her character being incorruptible; she has no one that depends on her and you can't threaten to kill someone she loves. I expected her to not sign the document at the end (and be killed in return). As is I'm not sure what to make of it. An another note, I probably just missed something, but what was her character's objection when they return across the border? At every point the gang members escalate the situation, from first brandishing a weapon to being the first to open fire. It sucks how it ended up but I suppose I just don't know how they were 'supposed' to handle the situation.
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Jan 10, 2016 08:19
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Made so posts earlier where I talk about the parallels between Blunt's and Del Toro's characters. In this comparison, the police force is her family. Additionally, her not having a family is one of the reasons that she is a good fit for the assignment.
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Jan 10, 2016 08:31
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Was Macer's partner corrupt? Was it just chance that he brought her to a bar that a crooked cop was at? I don't think we saw him much after the "I thought he was a friend" line. I'm sure there were many corrupt cops so it's not that unlikely it was a coincidence.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:55
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I'm pretty sure the corrupt cop was there specifically to pick Kate up. If I recall correctly, her partner was mildly surprised to run into the guy there. In any case, he accompanies Macer and the special operations team into the tunnel, so he was in the film well after she was attacked.
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Jan 16, 2016 04:42
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But he got there before Macer did, didn't he? But you're right, I forgot the tunnel scene was after that so her partner is probably cool. Probably just a coincidence. One other question: why were the illegals helping Alejandro with the tunnels? Wouldn't they think that they were going to shut down their way back into the country? They seemed awfully friendly.
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Jan 16, 2016 05:04
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quote:An another note, I probably just missed something, but what was her character's objection when they return across the border? At every point the gang members escalate the situation, from first brandishing a weapon to being the first to open fire. It sucks how it ended up but I suppose I just don't know how they were 'supposed' to handle the situation. I scratched my head at this too. They even gave them the chance to back down. If the Delta guys had just unloaded as soon as they saw weapons her reaction would have made sense.
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Jan 16, 2016 05:07
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I do think Emily Blunt's character was in a way incorruptible. She signed the document under threat for her life, which is, by the standards of most stories, not exactly heroic. But she can't or won't shoot del Toro as he walks away, making her one of the only characters in the movie who doesn't ultimately try to solve a problem by killing everything problematic. By Sicario standards that's a victory of sorts.
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Jan 16, 2016 05:33
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General Battuta posted:I do think Emily Blunt's character was in a way incorruptible. She signed the document under threat for her life, which is, by the standards of most stories, not exactly heroic. But she can't or won't shoot del Toro as he walks away, making her one of the only characters in the movie who doesn't ultimately try to solve a problem by killing everything problematic. By Sicario standards that's a victory of sorts. This is very Villeneuve.
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Jan 16, 2016 07:16
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durk onion posted:
Because they're poor and intimidated and surrounded by stone-faced enforcement officers. Because they're already headed off back across the border or worse to some abysmal ICE detention center...so why not play along? That's the impression I got.
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Jan 16, 2016 08:45
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I mean, while they might be scared of what the Americans will do with them, there's a decent chance they can intuit that Alejandro is a cartel hitman, and that's another tier of scary. Edit: oh poo poo, didn't this come out on bluray already this month?
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Jan 16, 2016 09:10
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durk onion posted:One other question: why were the illegals helping Alejandro with the tunnels? Wouldn't they think that they were going to shut down their way back into the country? They seemed awfully friendly.
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Jan 16, 2016 09:47
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Josh Lyman posted:Illegals don't use the drug tunnels.
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Jan 16, 2016 10:19
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They told them about other tunnels too and actually told them NOT to use the drug tunnels. If they were just intimidated I wouldn't expect them to go into such depth. They honestly seemed excited to tell them all these things. I feel like there was a deleted scene in there. What did Alejandro promise them?
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Jan 16, 2016 17:19
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Decent meals and getting to sleep in motels instead of a detention center is probably it's own reward. Alejandro and Matt seemed to treat them with more respect than the ICE officials as well. Which makes the other torture scenes even more disturbing, as these guys do know how to carry out effective, ethical interrogations.
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Jan 16, 2016 18:31
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Alejandro did choose the immigrants that had been to America before. Also he asked to see their hands/if they had a family/children. Maybe he was just asking them to see how honest/trustworthy they could be with him with small questions as a test for the larger questions about the tunnels. Also I could see Alejandro offering them something far more interesting in return for their help: letting them go.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:27
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mrlego posted:Alejandro did choose the immigrants that had been to America before. Also he asked to see their hands/if they had a family/children. Maybe he was just asking them to see how honest/trustworthy they could be with him with small questions as a test for the larger questions about the tunnels. Also I could see Alejandro offering them something far more interesting in return for their help: letting them go. Given how family and questions about family had been used to that point, my first guess was that these people were vulnerable to coercion.
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Jan 16, 2016 20:35
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Because they're poor and intimidated and surrounded by stone-faced enforcement officers. Because they're already headed off back across the border or worse to some abysmal ICE detention center...so why not play along? They literally say you can't cross the border where a smuggling tunnel exists and that the area where this tunnel is currently is to be one of the best places to cross. Seeing how these men were caught crossing it's kind of in their best interest to have those pathways open. That's their motivation for telling them. It's pretty straight forward.
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Jan 21, 2016 08:51
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Prior to that, they tell them about the tunnels they're currently using. Why would they do that? They also tell them not to use the drug tunnels. I don't think getting the drug runners out of there was their intention or they wouldn't have done either of those things. I'm guessing they promised to let them stay or something similar if they played ball. I'm just not sure why they wouldn't show that.
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Jan 21, 2016 17:51
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durk onion posted:Prior to that, they tell them about the tunnels they're currently using. Why would they do that? They also tell them not to use the drug tunnels. I don't think getting the drug runners out of there was their intention or they wouldn't have done either of those things. Why would they do that? Unless you think every Mexican is part of a drug cartel I think that answers itself. I mean the last scene in the movie couldn't drive this point home harder. Even if they did let them stay do you think people who cross go "oh nice, I'm here, gently caress all ya'll in still in Mexico!" No. Of course they would want the previously known best route opened back up. But lets say that wasn't their intention. These are just men seeking a better life away from the drug trade and likely have no qualms giving over this info, as long as they weren't 'made' and treated nicely by the Americans, who may or may not have let them stay in exchange for the info. Either way it goes along with the entire tone of the movie and kind of a moot point to argue over.
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Jan 21, 2016 18:41
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lizardman posted:An another note, I probably just missed something, but what was her character's objection when they return across the border? At every point the gang members escalate the situation, from first brandishing a weapon to being the first to open fire. It sucks how it ended up but I suppose I just don't know how they were 'supposed' to handle the situation. Kate knows the whole operation was bogus and illegal, the fact that certain higher ups approved it doesn't change that. They went into Mexico to take possession of a prisoner they had no legal right to, and they take a team full of Delta badasses because they pretty much know in advance there's going to be a firefight somewhere along the route. They had no business being there in the first place and the result could have been much worse, as it is there are six guys dead who shouldn't be. The natural reaction to that is "well they were gun toting cartel thugs, who cares?", but that's exactly what Brolin's character would say. The fact is it was soldier's work, not something law enforcement should ever be involved in.
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Jan 21, 2016 19:04
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96 spacejam posted:
agh NVM i don't care BeanpolePeckerwood fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 05:22
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Basebf555 posted:Kate knows the whole operation was bogus and illegal, the fact that certain higher ups approved it doesn't change that. They went into Mexico to take possession of a prisoner they had no legal right to, and they take a team full of Delta badasses because they pretty much know in advance there's going to be a firefight somewhere along the route. They had no business being there in the first place and the result could have been much worse, as it is there are six guys dead who shouldn't be. The natural reaction to that is "well they were gun toting cartel thugs, who cares?", but that's exactly what Brolin's character would say. The fact is it was soldier's work, not something law enforcement should ever be involved in. Um, I don't think that part was illegal. America has a ton of cartel figures in Mexico it goes after legally. Remember, these are the guys who killed like 30 people and then set off a bomb on some swat team. Kate isn't sorry those guys were shot, she's wondering what the hell is going on. Kate is objecting to the flagrant lack of due process. They didn't kill anyone at the border crossing unjustifiably, in fact they tried to let them surrender. However, they are operating in a way that's clearly under the radar. Hence leaving the dead bodies on the road.
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Jan 22, 2016 06:05
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Last Buffalo posted:Um, I don't think that part was illegal. America has a ton of cartel figures in Mexico it goes after legally. Remember, these are the guys who killed like 30 people and then set off a bomb on some swat team. Kate isn't sorry those guys were shot, she's wondering what the hell is going on. Yea, that's my point. Its illegal because there was no due process. They made an under the table deal with the Mexican authorities to cross the border and snatch the cartel guy. They had no extradition rights, none of the proper procedures had been followed. They did all of this knowing full well the cartel would come after them and people would likely end up dead, and did it anyway because they wanted to "create chaos".
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Jan 22, 2016 15:50
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Nah, they were getting him legally. They made a plea bargain with him (after the torture) and he's legally in US custody doing a 30 year sentence. There's lots of cartel guys the US rightfully indicts, and takes custody of (like we may do with El Chapo). Also, their plan wasn't to lure the cartel guys out to kill them. That's just the complications of extracting that prisoner from jail. They don't care about street soldiers. The shock of the scene comes from how calculated and ready they are for the quick brutal violence, and how that's not surprising for anyone than Kate. There's not a more humane or correct way they should have handled that stand-off. It's just shocking because Matt and the delta guys are so nonplussed by it.
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Jan 22, 2016 16:38
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Even if you're right(I admit I'd have to watch it again to be sure), I think the point is the same really. The higher ups are approving actions(and ok maybe pushing the required paperwork though as well) that wouldn't have been considered legal in the past, even the very recent past. She's reacting that way because she doesn't understand how everything they did could actually be legal, even if technically its been made legal by the people in power.
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Jan 22, 2016 16:47
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Basebf555 posted:Even if you're right(I admit I'd have to watch it again to be sure), I think the point is the same really. The higher ups are approving actions(and ok maybe pushing the required paperwork though as well) that wouldn't have been considered legal in the past, even the very recent past. She's reacting that way because she doesn't understand how everything they did could actually be legal, even if technically its been made legal by the people in power. The whole point of taking the two Marshalls along is that they have jurisdiction in that case. Delta specifically figures as "escort" (of the more extreme sort). That's also why Blunt's character gets the choice to stay in the Army Base if she wanted, because she is not strictly needed for that portion of the overall mission. Thus, I also thought the soldiers' actions during the return over the border didn't strike me as particularly disproportionate given the situation they have been thrust into, though the scene certainly made me question the instituational and ultimately social framework that allows the situation to occur in the first place. These soldiers probably shouldn't have been in that situation in those circumstances, but given that they are, what were they supposed to do? The Delta soldiers are pawns just as much as anybody else here, even Brolin's character who certainly has some agency and freedom, but who ultimately also does somebody else's bidding. And since I know I'm jumping into this after it slowed down quite a bit, I think the film did a very good job of being bleak and hitting the viewer with the realisation that there are a whole lot of greys and not really a whole lot of black and white in this whole drug conflict. One memorable sentence here was (and this isn't a direct quote, as this is from memory) when Brolin's character tells her that the cartels will disappear "as soon as 10% of Americans stop taking drugs", highlighting that the cartels are not merely this external aggressor that exists for no particular reason. Also, and I am not entirely sure who says this, but after the pre-Juarez briefing, when all the Delta people + Donovan's character + Brolin's character are leaving (the latter to get a vest for Blunt's character), you can subtly hear somebody say to somebody "hey, I thought you were supposed to be in prison" or some such, which further highlighted the perhaps less-than-stellar moral criteria in choosing a team whose primary (and official) function is to "do something about the cartels" while providing plausible deniability for all involved bureaucrats as to the specific measures taken. edit: fleshed out my first point more Hollow Talk fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jan 27, 2016 |
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Jan 27, 2016 19:44
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Basebf555 posted:Even if you're right(I admit I'd have to watch it again to be sure), I think the point is the same really. The higher ups are approving actions(and ok maybe pushing the required paperwork though as well) that wouldn't have been considered legal in the past, even the very recent past. She's reacting that way because she doesn't understand how everything they did could actually be legal, even if technically its been made legal by the people in power. Watch the scene again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU9L_MAfp3c The Delta crew isn't doing anything that is out of order in regards to use of force or field procedure. They, infact, do not have overly aggressive rules of engagement and even try to talk the guys down once they have them dead to rights. As for them booking after the shooting, that's not illegal or bad either. If the Marshals service in the US just got in a shootout on the road with people trying to kill someone in their custody, they drat sure wouldn't hang out on the road until someone could come and write a report. They'd leave and get to a safe locale. The shock of the scene comes out the military precision, and how this mexican highway is suddenly a warzone like Baghdad circa 2005. It's not because the mean old inconsiderate Delta guys decided to overreact to the poor old 10 person strong kill squad. Kate isn't outraged at the killing, she's pissed because she's in a huge shooting and she has no idea what is even going on. The torture scene that follows is the first real illegal (and amoral) action they directly do.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:38
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Yea rewatching the scene and being reminded of some specific details, clearly you're right. I suppose I had a similar reaction watching it as Kate had. It feels wrong, it doesn't seem like it should be legal to do things they way they were doing them. But this is a completely alien world to someone like Kate(even moreso to someone like me), and we react with confusion. The businesslike demeanor of Alejandro and the Delta guys combined with the outburst of brutal violence makes it feel like some sort of unsanctioned black ops mission. Definitely will be rewatching the movie soon though.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:17
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This movie's an interesting counterpoint to The Wire, mostly because I've been watching them both so they're in my head together, but also because The Wire shows how Kate probably expects policing should work — even as SWAT, you don't expect actual military shootouts, most of your drug work is poo poo like barricaded suspects and taking down stash houses. Bodies in the walls and bombs in the outhouse are a level of paramilitary violence that drive the Americans to retaliate with, well, more of the same. I can't imagine the characters in The Wire understanding how a case like Operation Medellin would operate. It's absolutely foreign to their understanding of policing, completely alien to the context of making cases and developing informants. If you go into the movie with that kind of policing in mind I think it's really easy to understand Kate's reaction.
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Jan 27, 2016 23:05
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The 8 person cartel death squad was dead either way, that's why they were sweating it so much, they were given a death sentence mission and the Delta guys both know this and exploit it. "What are the rules of engagement here?" "Stay in the car; if they move, you move." The moment the door cracks they are all over the cartel members. Procedurally by the book. The reason it feels wrong is the story's running theme of the US military continually manipulating desperate populations for their own economic benefit using extreme amounts of force. The state of perpetual warfare serves as a continual boon for the supreme military force, they who have the ability to puppeteer strategy over lesser nations and fight wars using drones rather than boots. Kate's reaction to the sudden "authorized" violence is the proper human reaction to the way a military superpower doles out violence across the world with such casual abandon and emotional disinvestment.
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Jan 28, 2016 04:38
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Cartel Land, the documentary about anti-cartel militias I mentioned earlier in the thread, is now in Netflix. It's very good and I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about the real circumstances that inspired Sicario.
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Jan 28, 2016 07:34
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:The 8 person cartel death squad was dead either way, that's why they were sweating it so much, they were given a death sentence mission and the Delta guys both know this and exploit it. It's also interesting in the sense that it shows how utterly outmatched the cartel footsoldiers are. The cartels themselves are these big, mythic boogeymen, but in that scene they might as well be kids with water guns. You see this same thing later with Alejandro dispatching the boss. A lot people jump on that part for feeling cartoonish, but I think that's kinda the point; the scariest, most dangerous people in the movie are all agents of the US.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:33
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:The 8 person cartel death squad was dead either way, that's why they were sweating it so much, they were given a death sentence mission and the Delta guys both know this and exploit it. I disagree. While I think the movie is very clearly indicting the militaristic attitude of the US in the War on Drugs, and outright labels the origins of the problem at the feet of American drug consumers, I don't think its trying to make the Cartel guys victims of fate or imperialism. They are portrayed as overly violent and merciless, and not in a reactionary way. I think the reason the movie is powerful is because while it offers a strong critique of the American methods of fighting the Cartels, it doesn't let the Cartels off the hook for what they do either. How do the Delta guys exploit the situation? They're out of the cars, guns pointed, because there's a squad of guys looking to kill them and their prisoner, and it's best not to be sitting in a thin metal box when trying to defend yourself. In the situation in the film, where do they cross the line? By not letting themselves get shot? The fact that the delta guys are clearly more prepared to defend themselves than the cartel sicarios are to kill them doesn't really highlight some great injustice. They aren't goading the guys into being killed. In the scene, they are trying to talk them down.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:43
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Last Buffalo posted:How do the Delta guys exploit the situation? They're out of the cars, guns pointed, because there's a squad of guys looking to kill them and their prisoner, and it's best not to be sitting in a thin metal box when trying to defend yourself. In the situation in the film, where do they cross the line? By not letting themselves get shot? The fact that the delta guys are clearly more prepared to defend themselves than the cartel sicarios are to kill them doesn't really highlight some great injustice. They aren't goading the guys into being killed. In the scene, they are trying to talk them down. One the one hand, yes. They react appropriately. I think the issue is that they set up the whole situation. This was an acceptable and expected outcome. The mindset that "we have the tactical superiority to just eliminate threats while we conduct operations" is what's wrong with how the US "conducts operations". And the rational is always the same. The territory they are operating in is dangerous and local law enforcement is corrupt. You could say the same thing about any high-crime area of the US, but it would still be unacceptable for a foreign military force to roll in and shoot all the criminals that tried to stop them in self defense. It's literally gang warfare. Just it because it can be legally justified doesn't make it not gang warfare. Emily is part of a tactical strike team, but she's part of a hostage rescue team, and believes in doing things by the book. She thinks that kicking doors and shooting people is done in the service of a higher cause of keeping people safe. The border shootout is the first example of "No, shooting people is just the cost of doing business". And in the case of the plot, the purpose of the business is just to shoot more people. Who is being saved in the movie? No one. The war on drugs isn't saving anyone, but it's paying a bunch of people to kill each other.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:55
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"Exploiting" the situation is probably not the right word to use, but the Delta guys are legit soldiers and they handle their business as such. Once everyone is on the bridge with the guns drawn, yea there are no other options and at that point they're defending themselves. But a lot of decisions were made that led up to that shooting. They were there to "create chaos", and they were looking for a fight. Historically law enforcement doesn't operate that way, but that's the point, this is now a military conflict and the U.S. is acting as such.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:06
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I don't know if extraditing a guy who set up murdering 30 people, then bombing a SWAT team is a tactic of gang warfare. Notice how they didn't roll into Juarez and start shooting cartel henchmen. They drove to a prison/police station and picked up a guy with Texas Rangers and then brought him back. What do you mean by gang warfare? Shooting people? They didn't "set up" the situation any more than when a cop tries to arrest someone who shoots at him, he's "setting up" that person to be shot back at. What's spooky about that scene is how the whole team calmly anticipates the violence beforehand, and that any of the people who really understand the situation (IE. Not Kate), know that the Cartel is capable and ready to send a large kill squad after you and you do need a team of delta guys to keep yourself safe. The country is treated like a warzone because it is unsafe and chaotic like a warzone. The horrifying reveal at the end of the movie is that the US is trying to stop that instability by becoming a benefactor for one of the sides in the chaos, not that they've started or maintain the killings in Mexico.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:10
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