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I'm honestly not sure. I can say that in 15 years as a Muslim I have never met anyone radicalized like that until the past year or so, when I've had a few disturbing brushes with them on /r/islam and a few other places. Academic sources or that kind of thing, I'm not aware of.
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Jun 14, 2016 14:11
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I have a buddy who's quite a bit into philosophy. However his lens is very much formed in the catholic tradition (with some serious subtext that this is the superior world religion/framework), and I was thinking of buying him a book on islam for his birthday. Do you guys have some book recommendations that are accessible? Preferably it'd be popular enough to have been translated into dutch but if the English isn't too dry/complex I'm sure it'd be fine. Not entirely sure if the focus should be on historical context or pure philosophy, I'm leaning towards historical context though.
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Jun 14, 2016 16:45
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Oof, like general books? I'm not sure, particularly about ones in Dutch. Most of my books are pretty specialized at this point. Sufism touches on a lot of philosophical concepts at time and this is a really good list of reading material, I own most of the books on there: http://www.scholarofthehouse.org/boonsurebydr.html Islamic philosophy is not an area I'm super knowledgeable about but some famous Islamic philosophers are Al-Ghazzali, Ibn Arabi and Al-Farabi, so you might look into translations of their writings!
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Jun 14, 2016 17:19
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Tendai posted:Oof, like general books? I'm not sure, particularly about ones in Dutch. Most of my books are pretty specialized at this point. Sufism touches on a lot of philosophical concepts at time and this is a really good list of reading material, I own most of the books on there: I've been told Al-Ghazzali is the go to guy for Islamic philosophy by a fellow muslim philosophy student. Apparently he did the whole 'I think therefore I am' thing a couple of hundred years before Descartes.
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Jun 14, 2016 17:25
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Hey, happy 4th to all you Americans/Usonians or whatever  the 5th of july marks the last day of Ramadan, so Eid Mubarak to everyone.Also Oman declared eid to be on the 7th, so the 6th is a fasting day there. Moon sightings differ by country, but most countries follow the Saudi declaration instead of doing it on their own, i guess Oman didn't want that. Anyone who has read into this is more than welcome to elaborate because i don't know the reasons myself.
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Jul 5, 2016 03:45
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Start of Eid means pointless "SO AND SO IN SUCH AND SUCH SAW THE MOON" arguing everywhere online and it's just great  Eid Mubarak everyone  (I also don't know what the deal is with Oman and Saudi Arabia so who knows)
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Jul 5, 2016 03:53
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It is unusual because the piss-fight is usually between Saudi and Iran, who declare the eid a day earlier or later out of spite. Not this year though, weirdly enough.
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Jul 5, 2016 04:15
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Could that be due to the bombings in Saudi Arabia? Media was bombed the other day, just in time for the end of Ramadan, so that's probably a bigger concern than the exact end of Ramadan. Speaking of, I was told recently that Jerusalem was the 4th holiest site in Islam, so if Mecca and Medina are 1st and 2nd, what does that make the 3rd?
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Jul 5, 2016 07:27
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Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India always start/end one day later than the Saudis. Pretty consistently.
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Jul 5, 2016 17:34
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Hazzard posted:Speaking of, I was told recently that Jerusalem was the 4th holiest site in Islam, so if Mecca and Medina are 1st and 2nd, what does that make the 3rd? Your mom.
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Jul 6, 2016 06:12
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Hazzard posted:Could that be due to the bombings in Saudi Arabia? Media was bombed the other day, just in time for the end of Ramadan, so that's probably a bigger concern than the exact end of Ramadan. Depends on who you ask but a Sunni will probably say that al-Aqsa is one of the three most holy places. There's no godly sanctioned ranking tas far as I know but if someone in here knows about it let me know?
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Jul 6, 2016 09:52
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Svartvit posted:Depends on who you ask but a Sunni will probably say that al-Aqsa is one of the three most holy places. There's no godly sanctioned ranking tas far as I know but if someone in here knows about it let me know? Yes. The al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is #3, so we read. I went there in the early 90s. I dabble into relgion on and off and I just purchased two books that I'll start reading tonight: "The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran" by Robert Spencer, and "The story of Mohammed Islam unveiled" by by Harry Richardson. I've read about Islam before and watched speakers. I've talk with muslims and non-muslims who were / are into Islam (and/or religion). When looking for books I was not looking for something that was "too scholarly" in writing style nor something that was on the "positive" side towards Mohammed or Islam. I'll read this books for starters and then look for other more nuetral works (although I don't know if these books are what you would critiques), as I haven't read them yet. Robert Spencer is very critical of the Quran and Islam, however. So, a question to members: with so many book on Islam, does anyone have a recommendation of a book that is as "neutral" as possible (if this is, possible)?
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Jul 6, 2016 10:55
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Eid Mubarak to all the Muslim Goons.  (Hope that was right, learning Arabic is HARD) Eit: Apparantly my Arabic letters don't work here. BattyKiara fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 11:17
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Positive Optimyst posted:So, a question to members: with so many book on Islam, does anyone have a recommendation of a book that is as "neutral" as possible (if this is, possible)? If by "neutral" you mean "scholarly" then https://www.amazon.com/Islam-Straight-John-L-Esposito/dp/0195396006
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Jul 6, 2016 14:18
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Positive Optimyst posted:I'll read this books for starters and then look for other more nuetral works (although I don't know if these books are what you would critiques), as I haven't read them yet. Robert Spencer is very critical of the Quran and Islam, however. I'm moving in 9 days so all of my books are packed right now, which means I can't stare blankly at my bookshelves until names come to me Sorry.
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Jul 6, 2016 15:10
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BattyKiara posted:(Hope that was right, learning Arabic is HARD) It was a real jerk move for the linguist masters to decide to just start writing with no vowels since native Arabic speakers didn't need them. No consideration. 
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Jul 6, 2016 15:13
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Fizzil posted:It is unusual because the piss-fight is usually between Saudi and Iran, who declare the eid a day earlier or later out of spite. Not this year though, weirdly enough.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:28
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Fuzz posted:Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India always start/end one day later than the Saudis. Pretty consistently. Now I'm curious whether Sri Lankan Muslims do it on the Pakistani schedule, or the Saudi schedule because gently caress you mainlanders, we're a special snowflake  .Edit update: It appears to be on the Mainlander schedule. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 20:21
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What are your thoughts on the Ahmadiyya? Are they well known outside the Pakistani community? Asking because of the rather ugly news story about the guy here in Scotland who was just murdered for blasphemy having come here from Pakistan to flee persecution  What are your thoughts on blasphemy in general?
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Jul 7, 2016 16:52
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Positive Optimyst posted:Yes. You do realize that Robert Spencer is the founder of two organizations that are considered by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center to be hate groups? He's literally banned from entering the UK because of his hate speech. It's a bizarre place to start if you're looking for neutrality; it's like reading David Duke to get an understanding of black history. I'd recommend (like Svartvit) John Esposito. He's respected by both Muslims and non-Muslims, and has written a number of very accessible books for the general reader. And he's not actually Muslim, which I suspect would disqualify him in your opinion.
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Jul 7, 2016 23:48
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Florida Betty posted:You do realize that Robert Spencer is the founder of two organizations that are considered by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center to be hate groups? He's literally banned from entering the UK because of his hate speech. It's a bizarre place to start if you're looking for neutrality; it's like reading David Duke to get an understanding of black history. I do not know much about Robert Spencer. As I stated, I was looking for someone critiquing Islam. I've read the Quran and hadith before, and took 2 university classes, and read other books on Islam / xtianity / judaism (although I've forgotten the titles because if was years ago). I am reading his book and the other one I noted above now. I will look into Svartvit and John Esposito also. I read wiki and another site on Spencer after you mentioned the ADL and SPL: his focus is on Islam. I don't see any "hate" in that. Edit in: I just read the several reviews of John Esposito's book on Islam. The problem with him is that he too "pro" islam or "supporting," if you want to use those terms. He's also been funded by an islamic organization. For the next book I'm looking for something as neutral as possible. Positive Optimyst fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 09:36
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That's the problem with anything controversial. Pro is seen as balanced by supporters and anti is seen as balanced by people against. I know Sam Harris wrote "Islam and the Future of Tolerance" with Maajid Nawaz, which may be something worth looking at, since it's an atheist and a Muslim writing together. The main issue is Maajid is anti Islamist, which draws him a lot of ire from some groups.
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Jul 8, 2016 11:01
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There is no such thing as a neutral account of Islam. It is a widespread religion with over a billion followers. Do you want to know about the history/practice/theology/variants of Islam, then read a respected scholar like the one mentioned. If you want to read about how Muslims can't understand democracy or whatever keep reading your books.
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Jul 8, 2016 17:28
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Svartvit posted:There is no such thing as a neutral account of Islam. It is a widespread religion with over a billion followers. Do you want to know about the history/practice/theology/variants of Islam, then read a respected scholar like the one mentioned. If you want to read about how Muslims can't understand democracy or whatever keep reading your books. Which scholar mentioned? Certainly, not Esposito. He's been exposed as being funded by islamist organizations and omitting many negative things muslims do. Which scholar are you referring to?
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Jul 8, 2016 17:37
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Hazzard posted:I know Sam Harris wrote "Islam and the Future of Tolerance" with Maajid Nawaz, which may be something worth looking at, since it's an atheist and a Muslim writing together. The main issue is Maajid is anti Islamist, which draws him a lot of ire from some groups. Nawaz being an anti-Islamist is probably less controversial (many Muslims I'm familiar with cast side-eye at Islamists) than the arguably anti-theist Harris, who's on record often saying Muslims, Jews, and Christians who don't accept the violent extremist versions of their religions "don't take their beliefs seriously".
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Jul 8, 2016 17:50
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bitterandtwisted posted:What are your thoughts on the Ahmadiyya? Are they well known outside the Pakistani community?
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Jul 8, 2016 19:16
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Bolocko posted:Nawaz being an anti-Islamist is probably less controversial (many Muslims I'm familiar with cast side-eye at Islamists) than the arguably anti-theist Harris, who's on record often saying Muslims, Jews, and Christians who don't accept the violent extremist versions of their religions "don't take their beliefs seriously". I'm inclined to think that the book must be reasonably good if they sat down and wrote it together. I listened to his podcast where he explained some reasoning behind one of his books and I wouldn't call him the mindless bigot people make him out to be. He just says things without entirely realising how they could be interpreted.
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Jul 9, 2016 12:44
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I haven't read it yet, but if reactions from the hardcore Salafist apologists on other sites are anything to go by, I'll probably like it Pretty sure they hate Nawaz far more than Harris.
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Jul 10, 2016 14:43
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I think that's because it's harder to demonise him. He's come to close to the "true" image of Islam, being a former Islamist of some sort. Then he rejected it. You can't really hate something without having loved it first. Possibly a Takfir, depending on their interpretation of Islam. To them, Harris is just a heathen like any other.
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Jul 10, 2016 15:26
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Positive Optimyst posted:Which scholar mentioned? Certainly, not Esposito. He's been exposed as being funded by islamist organizations and omitting many negative things muslims do. Here's a "scholar" more in line with what you seek https://www.politicalislam.com/author/
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Jul 10, 2016 20:43
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Black Bones posted:Here's a "scholar" more in line with what you seek https://www.politicalislam.com/author/ Thank you Black Bones. I read the caption. Although a general outline, I see it more his way, than those who are "positive" towards the ideology. I'll try to find more from him. And also, thanks to the others for you info. (I'm still reading my 2 books at the moment that I noted above.)
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Jul 11, 2016 09:14
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Positive Optimyst posted:Thank you Black Bones. Bill Warner is not a scholar of Islam, he's a math PhD. You might as well just read Freep and absorb the same knowledge. In fact, I think you probably should.
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Jul 11, 2016 16:55
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He's seemed level headed in the interviews I've seen him do. Tries to mathematically quantify violence in the Qu'Ran.
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Jul 11, 2016 18:04
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Svartvit posted:Bill Warner is not a scholar of Islam, he's a math PhD. You might as well just read Freep and absorb the same knowledge. In fact, I think you probably should. I read his bio. He's a math PhD. I have never read "freep" but I believe it's a political group / or viewpoint. I am not "right wing," if that's what they are. I'm not interested in the American political spectrum, just trying to learn more about Islam, the hadith, Quran, and such.
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Jul 12, 2016 10:26
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Homosexuality and Islam: Firstly, you described yourself as very liberal so you are most likely totally cool with gay dudes and the fun and games that they get up to. And that's awesome. But a lot of Muslim people aren't. quote:Muslims overwhelmingly say that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, including three-quarters or more in 33 of the 36 countries where the question was asked. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/ As far as I can tell, this research is perfectly credible. And it goes a lot further than just thinking behavior is morally wrong, in many of these countries homosexuality is a criminal offences with not fun consequences. Do you have some insight in this? Are these core tenants of Islam? And are these views appropriate for the 21st century? Can these views change, do you think they will? Full disclosure, as a gay person its hard for me not to take an extremely hostile view towards Islam.
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Jul 25, 2016 13:50
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While its generally agreed to be a sin, both The Qur'an or Hadith don't prescribe punishment to homosexuals. Can these views change? maybe. Muslims in the west are more accepting of homosexuals than in the Muslim world, and i think its cause of two things really. Of the 22 Arab countries, the only legal LGBT group exists is in Tunisia (and it is only recently a legitimate democracy), Tunisians hold fairly conservative views and think homosexuals are abomination, but the fact groups like these aren't made illegal yet is a promising start. The second problem is the lack of a civil society, there is no support for LGBT people in the middle east because of the lack of infrastructure and environment thats conducive for that. The muslims in the USA have a higher acceptance rating (from a pew poll as well) and from 2007 to 2014 shows improvement too, and i think its because the aforementioned elements exist over there that helps.
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Jul 26, 2016 22:09
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Which one is the proper Islam though, as in the actual word of God? The more it moves away from treating homosexuals as an abomination, the less the word of God it becomes, surely. When the Quran and Hadith are left to the interpretation of the individual, it seems to me that it's less about the word of God, and more about "designer Islam" that fits the needs and comforts of the modern, sensitive man. Such progressive attitudes implies that the vast majority of Islams are wrong and that the more progressive Muslamics think they're prophets ready to educate the dumb masses or something. The best thing about Islam is that we have access to the literal word of God and it can't be watered down, unlike other religions where rather more (albeit actually literate) scholars have to interpret then write down, to be interpreted and written down again. No true Muslim would turn down the chance to stone a gay, or at least verbally attest to a willingness to stone a gay.
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Jul 26, 2016 22:36
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Fizzil posted:The second problem is the lack of a civil society, there is no support for LGBT people in the middle east because of the lack of infrastructure and environment thats conducive for that. I'm a straight guy, I don't understand what you mean by "infrastructure." As for "environment," not there is not an environment in a muslim country that is conducive to gays. This is another thing Western European politicians and bureaucrats don't understand about islam and the culture of islamic countries. I read an article about prospective immigrants to Belgium taking a "Belgium culture class" (if you want to call it that) and showing these prospective immigrants photos gay women and men couples holding hands saying, "if you immigrate here you will have to accept this." IMO, most will not accept it. Unlike a christian, a muslim cannot get up in the morning and change their view about these matters. The quran is above all.
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Jul 26, 2016 22:42
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I don't think this is the right thread for your "views".
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Jul 26, 2016 22:48
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Ras Het posted:I don't think this is the right thread for your "views".
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