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Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Nap Ghost

It is pretty funny that Stellaris is doing all the crazy stuff people constantly requested for EU (add characters like CK2! add pops like Vicky!)

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AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Gwyrgyn Blood posted:

Same but also ship design.
I am almost as worried about that as I am about planet tiles. I just dont see how either can be a fun mechanic in a game that they are trying to design to have a fun lategame because they will both be a pain in the rear end to deal with late game, especially in large empires.

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


I like how that just, as a side note, claim they solve the whole "Wow why does this whole Starspanning United Empire species start pre-stellar travel on one world" by making it so species =/= empire. And there can be multiple empires based off the same root species.

Literally do the Aurora LP.

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



Bort Bortles posted:

I am almost as worried about that as I am about planet tiles. I just dont see how either can be a fun mechanic in a game that they are trying to design to have a fun lategame because they will both be a pain in the rear end to deal with late game, especially in large empires.

For ship design I'm hoping for something where it's pretty simple to design and you just make small incremental changes over the course of the game based on what technologies you research or find. Something more akin to something like an RPG where you level up and get to assign a skill point to something you want, where it's kind of a fun feedback loop that ties into the rest of the gameplay. Endless Legend did something kind of like that (Skill Points from leveling up, and Equipment from research or quests) and it was reasonably alright because it didn't involve tons of fiddling around. Or maybe something like what it sounds like HOI4 is doing with it's division design, where you want to make changes and improvements to the designs but it costs some kind of points to do so.

For planet tiles I'm almost certain there will be some kind of delegation of authority. Either Warlock 2 style (where you have a limit to the number of things you can directly control, and assign extra planets 'roles' on what to produce but otherwise have no direct control), or CK2 style (tiered hierarchy where you only directly control a few things and have to deal with power struggles amongst your Space Kings and such).

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


I assume that planet tiles going to basically be the game's baronies, where you care when you're a tiny babby empire but later on they will just do their own poo poo and things will work out.

Empress Theonora posted:

q. what kind of support will stellaris provide for F U L L C O M M U N I S M

This is the most important question, if I can't have a culture that doesn't understand the concept of private ownership then GAME RUINED

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009



I hope there's a DLC Expansion somewhere in the pipeline that adds "Mechanoid" as a possible alien species type, so that I can play as the Militaristic Collective-Fanatic machine race.

Dibujante
Jul 27, 2004


Please add "Danish" as a species type; thanks.

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

Animated leaders. No animated .gif.





Sounds exciting though. Wanna push all those buttons.

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!

Empress Theonora posted:

q. what kind of support will stellaris provide for F U L L C O M M U N I S M

Spending your three points on +Collectivist, +Xenophile, +Materialist?

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

quote:

Keep in mind, though, that there is a clear difference between the empire you are playing and its founding race. Empires and individual population units ("Pops") have an Ethos, but a species as a whole does not. Instead, what defines a species is simply its initial name, home planet class, and portrait (and possibly certain backstory facts.) Each race also starts out with a number of genetic Traits. As with the empire Ethos, you get to spend points to invest in Traits when you create your founding species at the start of a new game

Oh hell yes! A 4x that doesn't make species genetically good or evil!

Pimpmust
Oct 1, 2008



We've come a long way.

e: Just being able to have a scenario where you the player bump into two large empires having their own great war with puppets/allies vs each other, and both empires are the same species is a drat nice improvement over the usual 4X.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Cantorsdust posted:

This. Also waiting for the Stellaris -> Victoria 3 total conversion mod along with EU4 converter.

Please no

communism bitch
Apr 24, 2009



Seriously though will I be able to spread Full Space Communism??

Chief Savage Man
Jul 19, 2010

i care, i'm listening, i can help you without giving any advice


Pillbug

Well that was exactly what I was hoping it would be. Very exciting.

Has anybody else gotten a Steam controller and tried it with a Paradox game?

Unfortunately, I can't get my custom configuration to work in Darkest Hour but so far it seems like I just need to tweak my setup a bit for EU4/CK2 for it to play well. The Holy Grail of slouching in my chair and ruining my back while playing Paradox games is near.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

That's such a simple but flexible mechanic. Looking forward to playing as Gun-nut Libertopia, Kryptonian Science Council, and Bioware Fanbase.

Enjoy
Apr 18, 2009

The very sight of him was enough to make Bush, who had already had one drink from the well, feel consumed with thirst all over again.


Everything in that update looks cool as heck, even just a formal method of ship prefixes lol

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider



Gwyrgyn Blood posted:

Same but also ship design.

Gwyrgyn Blood posted:

For ship design I'm hoping for something where it's pretty simple to design and you just make small incremental changes over the course of the game based on what technologies you research or find. Something more akin to something like an RPG where you level up and get to assign a skill point to something you want, where it's kind of a fun feedback loop that ties into the rest of the gameplay. Endless Legend did something kind of like that (Skill Points from leveling up, and Equipment from research or quests) and it was reasonably alright because it didn't involve tons of fiddling around. Or maybe something like what it sounds like HOI4 is doing with it's division design, where you want to make changes and improvements to the designs but it costs some kind of points to do so.

I was playing Star Ruler 2 last night and the ship design is just, like... on the one hand, there are a couple of cool streamlining ideas in there, but on the other it really makes me understand why people hate ship design.

So, the way it works is, you fill hexes. You select the subsystem you want to add, you plonk it down on the builder canvas, and then you drag it out to fill x number of hexes. The more hexes a subsystem covers, the more damage/power/thrust it produces, and you can add extra widgets inside to customise them. So, immediately: why are you making me fill out all these hexes? The actual underlying hex grid does seem to interact with the damage model (damage from a specific direction gets applied to the hexes facing that direction, outermost hexes first), but you could replicate 95% of the functionality- the 95% we actually care about, as battles typically involve hundreds in ships and our only interaction with combat is to ram fleets into each other- with a list of subsystems and some size sliders. Or, better yet, a selection of three or four predefined sizes, because that's all the granularity we really need.

The cool streamlining idea here is that the number of hexes you have to fill doesn't change with the size of the ship. If I'm designing a screen, it doesn't matter if it's size 1 or size 100: I have 60 hexes to fill. Except, whoops, they're not really consistent in applying that idea- if I'm designing a capital ship instead of a screen, I need to fill 128 hexes. And if I'm foolish enough to try my hand at a Titan- 512 hexes. At 60 hexes, the designer minigame is fairly fun and engaging, even if on an intellectual level little of the work you're doing is going to make much difference to the actual gameplay. At 128, it's a little bit of a chore but still not that bad. At 512, you start losing your mind once you get to the engines.

Not great. Compare and contrast SEIV's ship design:



It's just a goddamn list of subsystems. This thing contains:

An AI brain
6 engines, I think these ones are photon drives?
2 guns, large variants of some kind of energy weapon
1 CIWS
2 shield devices (phased)
1 self-destruct device
2 miscellaneous parts I do not currently recognise

It would take about twenty clicks to design and it's got far more going on than anything I designed in SR2. Better yet, weapons have size variants and you always get the same amount of move per engine no matter how large the ship (...unless you're playing with QNP, which... nevermind), so larger designs don't take all that much longer (Cruisers are about mid-range, sizewise). Ships in SEIV take less time to design than you need to come up with a sufficiently metal class name. This is in a game that's fifteen years old and has an interface designed by and for lunatics.

It's not perfect, obvious. Do I really need to add six engines individually? Can't I just go, like, "these are the engines I'm using, give me six of them"? Or better yet, "I want this design to go at speed X, give me as much engine as I need for that to happen". Ditto every other system. It could be completely complexity invariant on ship size.

(SOTS1 has a similar system, but it managed to be somehow, fiddlier, less intuitive and more restrictive)

Of course, all of this is only interesting if you have tactical combat. If you're only interacting with ships on a strategic level, then you only really want to be designing those variables that have strategic implications.

But that's a whole other rant.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Nap Ghost

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

That's such a simple but flexible mechanic. Looking forward to playing as Gun-nut Libertopia, Kryptonian Science Council, and Bioware Fanbase.
Gonna max out Xenophile and name it the Empire of Kirk.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Is the space pope a lizard?

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



It's time for the Ship Design Anxiety Half-Hour, hold on to your butts!

"One time I opened up Master of Orion, and it had like all these slots and guns, and it was scary."

Real posts in the Paradox poopsock spreadsheet thread.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an


The Great Race of Yith come bearing the good news about laisseze faire economic systems.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.


College Slice


For the record those miscellaneous parts are armour (stealth armour specifically, I think) and a quantum reactor that means the ship never needs to resupply. I know this because I have spent countless hours playing SE4.

Also lol that's a scrub ship design, no combat sensors or ECM

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



Ship design isn't bad because it's scary or intimidating. It's bad because it's lovely busywork that adds nothing to the actual gameplay of the game. Hope this helps.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



Gwyrgyn Blood posted:

Ship design isn't bad because it's scary or intimidating. It's bad because it's lovely busywork that adds nothing to the actual gameplay of the game. Hope this helps.

If it's not meaningful to the combat system, sure. But that's true for any system that doesn't really interact with the rest of the design.

It just seems bizarre to expect a studio that goes into detail with things like governance, population modeling, racial types, solar system exploration, would tiptoe around combat and combat design to have it be simplistic and abstracted.

If you design something poorly it sucks, but having choices and differences between units in space games is a good thing and I am thinking that Paradox will be able to get that into their space game having been around the block before.

Chief Savage Man
Jul 19, 2010

i care, i'm listening, i can help you without giving any advice


Pillbug

Having ship design for special things like a flagship would be cool because it allows you to have something that you built and feels unique to that specific empire. Having to design everything is irritating though because usually there ends up being optimal designs and figuring out what they are is busy work.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



Chief Savage Man posted:

Having ship design for special things like a flagship would be cool because it allows you to have something that you built and feels unique to that specific empire. Having to design everything is irritating though because usually there ends up being optimal designs and figuring out what they are is busy work.

There's a line between Space Empires 4 (really, SE4 screenshots) and what is going to end up in a PDX game, right? Or you guys are literally imagining a 1:1 port here?

In EU4 I would like an army designer that lets me design Cav that has more defensive pips at the exchange of offensive pips. Maybe it can flank 2x the range in exchange for doing 25% less damage? I can't make these choices in EU4 because I am stuck with whatever troops my country has available. Within a given tech breakpoint (there are 5-6 in the game) I may have two choices in terms of troops. To me that's super boring - I spend 60+ hrs fighting a campaign and there is so little interesting difference between my armies and the enemies.

A ship designer simply means "some way to make my units different than the other guy's" and I just see that as a good thing. If it's been done in tedious or cumbersome ways before, who cares? The ability to make units different between empires and playthroughs is a big one to me.

I really think that if you imagine that a ship designer has to be tedious dogshit to allow unit differentiation, that you are just thinking about it wrong. I don't need 50 screens to say "Let me put more lasers than missiles on this ship" or "I want my destroyers be faster but less armored" or something similar.

Hitlers Gay Secret
Mar 7, 2010

The Third Reich's under new -- and better -- management.

Hasn't word reached Camp Pendleton yet?


College Slice

Groogy posted:

Please no

An alien invasion DLC for HoI 4 will suffice. You could use one of the species from Stellaris even.

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



Rakthar posted:

A ship designer simply means "some way to make my units different than the other guy's" and I just see that as a good thing. If it's been done in tedious or cumbersome ways before, who cares? The ability to make units different between empires and playthroughs is a big one to me.

I really think that if you imagine that a ship designer has to be tedious dogshit to allow unit differentiation, that you are just thinking about it wrong. I don't need 50 screens to say "Let me put more lasers than missiles on this ship" or "I want my destroyers be faster but less armored" or something similar.

That's literally the exact thing I was talking about so I'm not sure if you just missed my post or something? And yeah when I say 'ship design is lovely garbage' I'm referring to every single space 4x game that exists currently, not saying it can't be decent with a good implementation or it will be bad even in Stellaris. But considering the history of the feature as being terrible and the fact that we have literally nothing to go on other than 'this feature is in the game' I think it's pretty reasonable for anyone to be worried about it until we hear more.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



Gwyrgyn Blood posted:

That's literally the exact thing I was talking about so I'm not sure if you just missed my post or something? And yeah when I say 'ship design is lovely garbage' I'm referring to every single space 4x game that exists currently, not saying it can't be decent with a good implementation or it will be bad even in Stellaris. But considering the history of the feature as being terrible and the fact that we have literally nothing to go on other than 'this feature is in the game' I think it's pretty reasonable for anyone to be worried about it until we hear more.

Ok then I will prepare myself for lots more posts about how ship designers are scary and terrible until the point that they announce how the Stellaris one is going to work.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.


College Slice

I want a space game that is basically 90% ship design. Rule The Waves in space. All you do is design ships and smash them against alien ships. No politics, no colonization, no economy, no planet management. That can all happen in the background as your race expands but you are the grand admiral and it's your job to keep humanity safe against the Bug Menace by designing the biggest baddest ships that just so happen to be built by your nephew's shipyard even though your nephew doesn't know how to connect a warp drive to an engineering section or w/e.

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."


I actually like Sword of the Stars style ship design. It restricts how much you can put on a given hull, sure, but ship design is simple and easy - choose a role, choose a hull, fill slots, done.

That's the level of ship design I personally want. Weapons tend to be the focus of ship design, and it's nice to just order your shipbuilders to put as many guns of a certain type on a part of a ship and have them do the busy work of min maxing your gun count for you instead of fiddling with numbers and normal/light/heavy mounts so that you can fit as many guns per ship as possible.

Farecoal
Oct 15, 2011

There he go


vyelkin posted:

I want a space game that is basically 90% ship design. Rule The Waves in space. All you do is design ships and smash them against alien ships. No politics, no colonization, no economy, no planet management. That can all happen in the background as your race expands but you are the grand admiral and it's your job to keep humanity safe against the Bug Menace by designing the biggest baddest ships that just so happen to be built by your nephew's shipyard even though your nephew doesn't know how to connect a warp drive to an engineering section or w/e.

So Gratuitous Space Battles?

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009


vyelkin posted:

I want a space game that is basically 90% ship design. Rule The Waves in space. All you do is design ships and smash them against alien ships. No politics, no colonization, no economy, no planet management. That can all happen in the background as your race expands but you are the grand admiral and it's your job to keep humanity safe against the Bug Menace by designing the biggest baddest ships that just so happen to be built by your nephew's shipyard even though your nephew doesn't know how to connect a warp drive to an engineering section or w/e.

Gratuitous Space Battles is that sort of game (though I personally don't like it anywhere near as much as RTW).

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


Gwyrgyn Blood posted:

That's literally the exact thing I was talking about so I'm not sure if you just missed my post or something? And yeah when I say 'ship design is lovely garbage' I'm referring to every single space 4x game that exists currently, not saying it can't be decent with a good implementation or it will be bad even in Stellaris. But considering the history of the feature as being terrible and the fact that we have literally nothing to go on other than 'this feature is in the game' I think it's pretty reasonable for anyone to be worried about it until we hear more.

The reason that they traditionally suck is that they come at it way too hard from a simulationist perspective, where really all you need is ways to make interesting decisions about their capabilities in combat. I always liked the designer from SMAC since it was literally just choosing your attack/defense/movement and a couple of special abilities for each unit, I don't see why anything substantially more complex than that is needed for a game with automated combat.

Dirk the Average posted:

I actually like Sword of the Stars style ship design. It restricts how much you can put on a given hull, sure, but ship design is simple and easy - choose a role, choose a hull, fill slots, done.

I haven't played SotS but this sounds just dandy.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009


vyelkin posted:

I want a space game that is basically 90% ship design. Rule The Waves in space. All you do is design ships and smash them against alien ships. No politics, no colonization, no economy, no planet management. That can all happen in the background as your race expands but you are the grand admiral and it's your job to keep humanity safe against the Bug Menace by designing the biggest baddest ships that just so happen to be built by your nephew's shipyard even though your nephew doesn't know how to connect a warp drive to an engineering section or w/e.

NWS RTW is the only ship design screen I have ever been really comfortable with, even though it looks like it was from 1995. Adapt it a little for space combat (but not too much because WW1 in space would be more interesting than WW2) and slap on some fancy GUI and call it a day. Actually after that ring up the NWS guys and hire them to make a naval/air game spanning the whole 20th century.

GOTY twice in one year?!

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.


College Slice

Farecoal posted:

So Gratuitous Space Battles?

Nah, afaik GSB doesn't have any kind of campaign. I want a real campaign where battles matter and have lasting impacts like in RTW as your empire expands and fights other empires, but without all the tedious colonization and micromanagement of 99% of space 4Xs.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



vyelkin posted:

Nah, afaik GSB doesn't have any kind of campaign. I want a real campaign where battles matter and have lasting impacts like in RTW as your empire expands and fights other empires, but without all the tedious colonization and micromanagement of 99% of space 4Xs.

From the 4x games I've played, Sword of the Stars 1 is the game that most closely models an interesting tactical combat game with a simplified empire side of things. It's very similar gameplay wise to Total War games in that the tactical combat is the focus, but it differs in that you can make meaningful choices on the strategic side that impact the combat.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Nap Ghost

RabidWeasel posted:

I don't see why anything substantially more complex than that is needed for a game with automated combat.
Yeah I'm not really worried because it can't be that complicated without manual tactical combat.

I'll be surprised if it doesn't boil down to "always build X" or "look at what your target is building than then build X or Y depending." Which is fine for a strategy game. It just needs to make you have to think about whether or not it's worth it to wait until your fleet is refitted.

Sindai fucked around with this message at Oct 19, 2015 around 19:28

Gwyrgyn Blood
Dec 17, 2002



RabidWeasel posted:

The reason that they traditionally suck is that they come at it way too hard from a simulationist perspective, where really all you need is ways to make interesting decisions about their capabilities in combat. I always liked the designer from SMAC since it was literally just choosing your attack/defense/movement and a couple of special abilities for each unit, I don't see why anything substantially more complex than that is needed for a game with automated combat (p.s. thank Wiz that they haven't fallen down the bottomless pit of game runining by having tactical combat).

Yeah that's what I was talking about above when I mentioned something like Endless Legend. Very quick and easy to do, with some choices based on your opponents or map situation (ie what resources you have available to you), and a Skill system that lets you periodically buy upgrades for your heroes as well. That kind of thing I think would work well in this kind of game as well.

SotS1 was actually pretty decent as far as ship design goes, probably the best space 4x I've played in that regard (and not too dissimilar to something like SMAC or Endless Legend). Couldn't stand the actual tactical combat in it though, largely due to the interface and some serious pacing and jank issues. But if you can learn to deal with them you'll probably love the game.

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BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

DrSunshine posted:

I hope there's a DLC Expansion somewhere in the pipeline that adds "Mechanoid" as a possible alien species type, so that I can play as the Militaristic Collective-Fanatic machine race.

Better be, for literal Randroids.

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