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Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


It also doesn't handle American statehood well. States can get into the Union waaay too fast in Vicky 2, and there's no real reason not to admit them ASAP other than roleplaying (There's free state/slave state issues and such but it never feels like it's seriously disrupting the balance of power in the US). I think there should be a cooldown timer from territory or colonial state to full state, something that makes you wait like 10-15 years after acquiring territory to make it a state, or make the process more involved than a percentage of bureaucrats. California only took 2 1/2 years, but it had the gold rush sending thousands of people there and was the target of the entire war, so it's special.

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Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands


The Sharmat posted:

Even as bad as the capitalist AI is, laissez-faire gets an undeserved bad rap in Vicky 2. The game seems built around the historical European trend of top down industrialization rather than the American one, which means you want interventionist or state capitalist parties at the start to build your economy and get everything running. Thing is, once it's already going good, you actually can just set it to laissez-faire and the capitalists have enough money to play with that their bonuses outweigh their lovely decisions and they'll just grow your economy for you while you don't have to do much of anything.

Yeah, LF is terrible for a growing economy but once you got the basics set up I've never really had the free market bite me in the rear end, and it's nice not having to micromanage each and every factory in every state.

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009


Fun Shoe

podcat posted:


Come sign up for beta: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-signup.888039/
We need lots of sane people.

I wonder if signing up with my iMac instead of the Windows PC would give me higher chances, there is gonna be a OS X version right, I need my lunchtime strategy at work !

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


podcat posted:


Come sign up for beta: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-signup.888039/
We need lots of sane people.

Page is down for me.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Koesj posted:

Page is down for me.

The whole forums are down. Looks like Johan kicked the plug under his desk again.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax


Tomn posted:

Yeah, LF is terrible for a growing economy but once you got the basics set up I've never really had the free market bite me in the rear end, and it's nice not having to micromanage each and every factory in every state.

It's also gets such a nasty reputation I think in part because a lot of the early available parties are laissez faire and new players tend to want to industrialize ASAP not realizing it's perfectly fine to just sit on your RGO income and tech up for awhile. Building factories as soon as they're available is usually a bad idea, actually, and will just tank your income to no purpose.

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009


Fun Shoe

I usually went for the army relevant supply factories early on, to not limit my conquest by world market.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax


You guys are making me want to play Victoria again and I still haven't finished the Witcher 3 expansion.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


PleasingFungus posted:

the defining features of victoria, to me, are (1) the sense of rapid progress (technological, military & cultural), and (2) the tight timeframe that limits what you can practically accomplish (which makes nations feel more distinct) and makes finishing games actually common.

pops and a realistic economy aren't necessary at all to either of those, so I could give or take them.
I'd add socio-political progress, which pops definitely help sell. That said, I'm sure some degree of simplification wouldn't hurt. I mean, where categories have very limited gameplay effect you might as well discard them and consolidate a bunch of pops, like religion. An improved assimilation system which allows quick-ish assimilation into the local core cultures would also reduce the upkeep of pops too. Plus a reduced number of pop categories might make it easier to communicate the stuff which actually matters in the game.

Another Person posted:

"What on earth do all these different tech modifiers actually do? Is 0.2% pop growth huge, or tiny? How about 5% factory throughput? 1% tax efficiency? Where are these modifiers being applied? Are they additive or multiplicative?"
That's really a more general thing for Paradox games, even if it's more pronounced in Victoria due to the sheer amount of numbers. Would be nice though if all their games clearly distinguished between additive and multiplicative modifiers. (And allowed both to be applied for any value, instead of being limited to one or the other.)

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

podcat posted:


Come sign up for beta: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-signup.888039/
We need lots of sane people.

You'd better let me in or, well, you'll have to let someone who posts on the paradox forums in instead.


e: I believe as a general rule multipliers are additive. Except for when they are not. And the modifier it changes may well be multiplicative of something else.


e2: if you let me beta test HOI4 I guarantee 90% of my feedback will consist of screenshots of various stat screens with the caption "Why am I supposed to care about this?"

Alchenar fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2015 around 12:58

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007



Alchenar posted:


e2: if you let me beta test HOI4 I guarantee 90% of my feedback will consist of screenshots of various stat screens with the caption "Why am I supposed to care about this?"

I'm planning to just copy/paste every post I can find about inaccuracies in the Balkans and send them along.

Another Person
Oct 20, 2010





Groogy posted:

Trade is quite simple, only thing it doesn't display properly as far as I can remember is the domestic trade modifier and the abroad modifier in the trade screen. Other than that there are not that much hidden complexity to the trade system.

Yeah, trade once you figure it all out after 80 hours of play is simple. But the game doesn't make it simple for either a new player or an experienced one who hasn't really messed with it much. It doesn't explain the relationship very well between production and trade power. Caravan power is poorly explained. The trade node view panel is wrong. Mercantilism is always known as the number you want more of, but the game doesn't really tell you why, you just have to keep cranking it up to find out. Upstream trade power is not something that is easy to notice.

I understand trade, but before now I have had long steam chats with people who don't understand it and boy oh boy is it hard telling them what everything is and what it does. It is nowhere near Viccy 2 levels, but it is no walk in the park.

e; infact, I forgot my favourite big misconception about EUIV that the game never explains. Getting stackwiped does not make you lose all of that manpower, you get half of it back. The game never tells you this, and nobody ever believes me when I tell them it because it sounds insane and unbelievable. Little things like that which could do with explaining are what the player needs.

Another Person fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2015 around 15:31

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Pretty much says what it does on the tin



And how production affects works with trade? Not at all. It is not affected by the current state of the trade. It is however affected by how many goods you produce, the value of the goods you produce and modifiers on that value (the events you see from time to time that increase and decrease the price) But Production itself is completely detached from trade and trade is completely independent from production. That is probably you had a hard time understanding how they related, because they didn't.

Or are you referring to the goods produced mechanic itself and not the production income mechanic? Goods produced is just the base value to calculate how much trade value is generated in the province. So if price of my goods are 2, I produce two of these goods then my province is producing 4 trade value. It is all shown in the province view

Groogy fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2015 around 15:39

Another Person
Oct 20, 2010





Groogy posted:

Pretty much says what it does on the tin



Now where is the explanation of what provincial trade power is? Why are they not all in one screen? I don't remember right now if they are, but I don't think provicinal trade power is on the same screen as mercantilism (if it is, ignore that comment, but I don't remember it being there). I know there are certain trade modifiers that are not on the trade screen though, and they really should be so that the player has all of the information in one easy to see place. A lot of the confusion with these games is that usually a lot of the information is not in one place, but about 12.

Also, why would you implement a modifier that adds a modifier to a modifier? It is just a weird complex series of modifiers that is hard for the player to figure out. The things I am complaining about are things that don't get explained very well to a player, or things that are just needlessly complex. If you play the game for long enough, it eventually becomes understandable and acceptable, but getting to that point is very difficult. Just a lot of mechanics either need more explanation, or they need a radical simplification, by changing the things that add modifiers to modifiers. The more levels of complexity you add, the more mystefied the numbers become and the less likely a player is to want to learn how to interact with it. With the current numbers, you usually have either the what or why is happening, but not both, and I think that is important for a player.

I only understand trade because my favourite government type is a merchant republic, but I'd played for about 100 hours before that and still didn't quite understand what trade was doing past the bare necessities. Push trade towards me, put boats in places, don't collect in non-home nodes. I had no idea how to maximize my trade. It took me three or four merchant republic runs before I actually knew what was happening and why.

For example, you have that really dumb video of Arumba trying to figure out attrition mechanics. He spent about 2 hours trying to get a proper understanding of what was happening and why, and at the end he still didn't seem sure if what he thought was true was the case. It is scenarios like that which I think need tidying up.

I know these are innately complex games, and these are probably the best on the market for the type of gameplay that they provide. But there is still room for improvement. I've actually liked watching things become more straightforward since I started playing, but it doesn't mean it is easy to understand now.

e; you even see there that to figure out a mechanic you had to look in a different window. also I am always forgetting the names of the modifiers and mechanics with trade because there are so many of them, so I did mean what you said up there. But it is and never was an easy thing to figure out at first. The numbers are just not very accessible. They are there, but they are hard to understand.

Another Person fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2015 around 15:54

Bold Robot
Jan 6, 2009

Be brave.


Outrageous Lumpwad

Groogy posted:

Pretty much says what it does on the tin



And how production affects works with trade? Not at all. It is not affected by the current state of the trade. It is however affected by how many goods you produce, the value of the goods you produce and modifiers on that value (the events you see from time to time that increase and decrease the price) But Production itself is completely detached from trade and trade is completely independent from production. That is probably you had a hard time understanding how they related, because they didn't.

Or are you referring to the goods produced mechanic itself and not the production income mechanic? Goods produced is just the base value to calculate how much trade value is generated in the province. So if price of my goods are 2, I produce two of these goods then my province is producing 4 trade value. It is all shown in the province view



This is all true but it doesn't really change his point that this is some of the most opaque stuff in the game for a new player. Kind of supports it actually, with the production/trade hair splitting - I don't think it's totally fair to say they're completely independent since they're both a product of goods produced.

Empress Theonora
Feb 19, 2001

She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.



Has anybody linked this week's HoI IV dev diary yet in between all of the beta/V2 economy chat?

Is this the first time we've seen a completely uncropped national focus tree? I love how totally off-the-rails it can go just from the chart alone. French blitzkrieg? France joins Comintern? Franco-Italian ~*~*~army of aggression~*~*~?

Edit: I also like how French nerf mechanics are like the WWII game equivalent of EU4 Ming nerfs.

Darkrenown
Jul 18, 2012

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new DLC tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

It's not entirely complete, the air branch is offscreen to the right

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Paradox Grand Strategy: It's modifiers all the way down!

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Another Person posted:

but I don't think provicinal trade power is on the same screen as mercantilism
They are not because provincial trade power is on a provincial level while mercantilism is on a global level. Each province can have difference in their provincial power trough local modifiers, like trade centers or just a simple thing like buildings. The mercantilism is the global value that is added to each province you own.

e: I am not saying it is not hard to get into, but you are poking on like the wrong stuff though


Alchenar posted:

Paradox Grand Strategy: It's modifiers all the way down!

Well in essence the entire game in a very short and primitive way to describe it is "It is a game where you go to war to gain more modifiers by using the modifiers you already have to beat the other guys modifiers so you can take his modifiers"

Groogy fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2015 around 16:12

Dibujante
Jul 27, 2004


The national focus thing is honestly my most anticipated part of HOI4. HOI was always short on the narrative department after it left the tightly scripted event chains of HOI2/DH/other spinoffs. I think that making HOI into a political sandbox via national focus trees is a really good step towards reintroducing a narrative but not tying it strictly to the same WW2 every time around.

How are you balancing them, though? What are the odds that everyone joins Axis and Hitler leads a coalition of pan-european snuggleship?

Empress Theonora
Feb 19, 2001

She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.



Darkrenown posted:

It's not entirely complete, the air branch is offscreen to the right

The fact I didn't notice that there wasn't an air branch is evidence of the way all of the political/diplomatic stuff immediately caught my attention, I guess.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007



Dibujante posted:

The national focus thing is honestly my most anticipated part of HOI4. HOI was always short on the narrative department after it left the tightly scripted event chains of HOI2/DH/other spinoffs. I think that making HOI into a political sandbox via national focus trees is a really good step towards reintroducing a narrative but not tying it strictly to the same WW2 every time around.

How are you balancing them, though? What are the odds that everyone joins Axis and Hitler leads a coalition of pan-european snuggleship?

Well its sounds like NFs have a 'historical' tag to them, and the player can opt between pure historical (historical NFs always chosen) or 'open' where AI choices are weighted towards historical but they can diverge.

Fidel Cuckstro fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2015 around 16:20

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

Well its sounds like NFs have a 'historical' tag to them, and the player can opt between pure historical (historical NFs always chosen) or 'open' where AI choices are weighted towards historical but they can diverge.

Yeah and I use it for the AI a little bit to hint at it what to do which made this quote:

Groogy fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2015 around 16:24

Chief Savage Man
Jul 19, 2010

i care, i'm listening, i can help you without giving any advice


Pillbug

Would the Vichy colonial split be done differently depending on focuses? I always wanted to fight from Algeria as Free France (or as Red France ).

Another Person
Oct 20, 2010





Groogy posted:

They are not because provincial trade power is on a provincial level while mercantilism is on a global level. Each province can have difference in their provincial power trough local modifiers, like trade centers or just a simple thing like buildings. The mercantilism is the global value that is added to each province you own.

e: I am not saying it is not hard to get into, but you are poking on like the wrong stuff though


Well in essence the entire game in a very short and primitive way to describe it is "It is a game where you go to war to gain more modifiers by using the modifiers you already have to beat the other guys modifiers so you can take his modifiers"

I wouldn't say I'm poking at the wrong stuff, I'm just poking at it the wrong way because my memory is shot to all hell right now. It doesn't help my argument that I am not near a PC right now to look at the game and get screenshots to illustrate what I mean like you can, and I have a bad memory with all of the names of the base numbers and modifiers because they all have quite similar names.

Like, I think there is probably a better way to display all of the trade information in either one menu, or a series of clearly and closely linked menus (an expandable window would be best for showing info I feel) which have buttons between each other, allowing the player to see everything as they need it, instead of rooting around the two hundred available menus in the game for the right thing.

Also, I think your summarisation of the game needs more mention of modifiers in it.

You forgot all the bits where you try and amass modifiers before going to war by using your monarch point modifiers to to gain idea modifiers by using the modifiers you already have to beat the other guys modifiers and take his modifiers and add them to your modifiers to make a bigger modifier so that you can use your modifiers to influence the modifiers of different other guys modifiers outside of war and minimise their modifiers so that when you go back to them to use your modifiers against their modifiers in the next war so that their modifiers will not equal your own.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Another Person posted:

I wouldn't say I'm poking at the wrong stuff, I'm just poking at it the wrong way because my memory is shot to all hell right now. It doesn't help my argument that I am not near a PC right now to look at the game and get screenshots to illustrate what I mean like you can, and I have a bad memory with all of the names of the base numbers and modifiers because they all have quite similar names.

Like, I think there is probably a better way to display all of the trade information in either one menu, or a series of clearly and closely linked menus (an expandable window would be best for showing info I feel) which have buttons between each other, allowing the player to see everything as they need it, instead of rooting around the two hundred available menus in the game for the right thing.

You have the global view which gives you a summary of the trade you can reach, from there you can go into the node view of interest by double clicking but from there you can't view specific provinces. Is that what you have a gripe with? Because those three are the only ones that have anything to do with trade.

Groogy fucked around with this message at Oct 23, 2015 around 16:49

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009



Dibujante posted:

The national focus thing is honestly my most anticipated part of HOI4. HOI was always short on the narrative department after it left the tightly scripted event chains of HOI2/DH/other spinoffs. I think that making HOI into a political sandbox via national focus trees is a really good step towards reintroducing a narrative but not tying it strictly to the same WW2 every time around.

How are you balancing them, though? What are the odds that everyone joins Axis and Hitler leads a coalition of pan-european snuggleship?

That ought to be an achievement if anything. "Peace in Our Time": Diplomatic Victory as Axis.

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I just pretend to be nice.


Lipstick Apathy

podcat posted:

We need lots of sane people.

Did you say this so you guys can cunningly filter out all the goons who add it in to be funny?

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

Oooh... I hope there's a 'Government Reform' path for the USA where you or the AI can go Red or Business Plot or whatever, and really gently caress things ups.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


Fintilgin posted:

Oooh... I hope there's a 'Government Reform' path for the USA where you or the AI can go Red or Business Plot or whatever, and really gently caress things ups.
The US should get a choice of how many "independent nations" it tells Hitler not to invade. The more countries on the list, the stronger and more aggressive Germany becomes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjD9v9H2UrU

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


I only just realized after months of following HoI IV's development that we haven't seen any laws for political freedoms. Will there be one or will I have to mod one in? I imagine it would tie into espionage and occupation policies and might be for later Dev Diaries.

MilkmanLuke
Jul 4, 2012

I'm da prettiest, so I'm da boss.

Baus is boss.


Koramei posted:

Did you say this so you guys can cunningly filter out all the goons who add it in to be funny?

Everyone who mentions being a goon gets sent to the multiplayer-only test gulag for matches against the Hitler-apologists and the "Give me counters or I can't feel human" crowd.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009


Fine by me, I bet those guys are all really poo poo at it anyway.

Nick Esasky
Nov 10, 2009


so, you guys are tempting me to get back into Vicky 2, which in turn means i'm looking at the modding forums again. Which of these zillion PDM modmods/other things in the forums are considered to be Good And Proper ATM?

Chickpea Roar
Jan 11, 2006

Merdre!


Nick Esasky posted:

so, you guys are tempting me to get back into Vicky 2, which in turn means i'm looking at the modding forums again. Which of these zillion PDM modmods/other things in the forums are considered to be Good And Proper ATM?

I was about to say vanilla, but I think I've edited pretty much every editable file sometime since release. Lots of people like NNM. I used it for some time, but I went back to vanilla after a while. NNM seemed to always produce weird ahistorical outcomes and it felt way easier as a human player than vanilla. It also had a couple of really clunky and annoying events, but I can't remember what it was that annoyed me...

Vicky2 is a great and fun game, with some really awful mechanics, but it's all worth it when you get situations like this:


The richest people in Provence seems to be a group of animist Tswana capitalists.

Enjoy
Apr 18, 2009

The very sight of him was enough to make Bush, who had already had one drink from the well, feel consumed with thirst all over again.


I guess no one ever played my modmod, I put events in for America in ~1920 to be hit by an invasion of Cthulhu worshippers (based on a Halloween event Paradox did) but no one ever commented about it

Another Person
Oct 20, 2010









i learned how to viccy 2

I got involved with some dumb brotherhood wars between Austria and Prussia. Is Prussia always such a wet blanket in this game? I sat back and watched mostly, but occasionally jumped in when Prussia seemed to keep getting caught with their pants down. It was Austria with no allies and Prussia with me. Prussia lost. 3 times.

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

Another Person posted:





i learned how to viccy 2

I got involved with some dumb brotherhood wars between Austria and Prussia. Is Prussia always such a wet blanket in this game? I sat back and watched mostly, but occasionally jumped in when Prussia seemed to keep getting caught with their pants down. It was Austria with no allies and Prussia with me. Prussia lost. 3 times.

Release it as a puppet and then immediately lose control of it when it rockets to the 3rd GP slot in about 2 weeks.

Fidel Cuckstro
Jul 2, 2007



Another Person posted:





i learned how to viccy 2

I got involved with some dumb brotherhood wars between Austria and Prussia. Is Prussia always such a wet blanket in this game? I sat back and watched mostly, but occasionally jumped in when Prussia seemed to keep getting caught with their pants down. It was Austria with no allies and Prussia with me. Prussia lost. 3 times.

I like that even with owning all of Africa you're still only #4.

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Another Person
Oct 20, 2010





Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:

I like that even with owning all of Africa you're still only #4.

France, who owns jack poo poo outside of three colonies and France itself is #2. USA, who has done literally nothing all game, is #3. GB is naturally #1.

I'm not even sure how to overtake any of them in terms of score, but outside of GB, I am pretty confident I could take any of them on in a fight. Especially if I called in my sphere allies, the Netherlands, Italy and Persia. It seems Prussia has stalled and the NGF will never form. Austria is on the decline too. Russia has lost GP status. This game is so weird, somehow Bavaria is a GP. 7th, at that.

Now that I have colonised the hell out of Africa, what should I be looking to do? I am kind of at a loss at where to go next.

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