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They are both good and fun games that are getting improved over time. But I am already enjoying both?
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Oct 11, 2017 13:30
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HOI4 is fine. I can't get into Stellaris though. I think turn based gameplay works better in space 4X games. Paradox should do an OTTD style game. At least we'd finally get a modern transport game with proper signals.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:36
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Phi230 posted:Seeing how HOI4 and Stellaris ended up I'm not sure if I want vikky 3. It won't live up to vikky 2. Hoi is... okay, but Vicky inherently would have more events and causes for conflict and in general things going on then Stellaris, so even if it functionally ran the same it'd be good.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:44
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Stellaris wasn't CK2 in space but some kinda not-EUIV in space so it had that against it from the start. They've added a lot of interesting whistles and bells, but the underlying tech system isn't interesting or cool; the building/ship design system is boring micro garbage and the war system is loving poo poo, with one theory being that they're leaving it as is because of a whole overhaul of the thing. Like, the combat is the worst I've ever had in a space 4X. It somehow manages to mix the worst boring micro of grog games with having absolutely zero control or room for tactics on the player end. It is really bad. Like, the game has a lot of charm and possibility for depth but uhhh, aside from the science events it really isn't there yet. And not having cool galaxy shape settings, wormholes or scenarios is dreadful.
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Oct 11, 2017 14:05
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I think they're taking the right approach of overhauling all the busted systems one-at-a-time, rather than trying to do everything at once (which is kind of what got them into that state to begin with). But yeah, a lot of things in Stellaris at release were ... not good.
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Oct 11, 2017 14:12
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Endless Space 2 is a better Stellaris than Stellaris is
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Oct 11, 2017 14:12
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Like, I don't know if the game plays more tolerably if you've played a lot of EUIV but coming from CK2 it was uhhhhhhhh, yeah. I mean, it's their first try for it but I thought there'd be like, scenarios, twists and other cool events. Like, you'd start a random game, only to find all your neighbours along a "line" in the galaxy are kinda similar humanoids, where on one end there's a fallen human empire and the other the ones seeding the galaxy with people. Then on the outer edges are the actually alien aliens. stuff like that
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Oct 11, 2017 14:16
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Stellaris wasn't CK2 in space but some kinda not-EUIV in space so it had that against it from the start.
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Oct 11, 2017 14:24
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Phi230 posted:Endless Space 2 is a better Stellaris than Stellaris is Indeed it is, but then they did do a test run with ES1, which was hot garbage. I am getting a lot more enjoyment out of ES2 though. Battle choices and ship design seem meaningful, as do the limited scope politics.
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Oct 11, 2017 14:27
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I dunno I never really had a ton of issues with Stellaris at launch (well Diplo and the emptiness by mid game aside). Besides with a Paradox game I always view it as buying a base game that's okay, but will get tremendously better over time. It still was incredibly easy to get into which is not something one can often say with 4x space games. Then again I like the tile micro so I'm probably a weirdo.
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Oct 11, 2017 15:09
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I find stelaris to be pretty bland and boring. I can't really connect to the world like I can with the ck or eu games and I really don't like designing spaceships so the battles are just really meh for me. I don't really mind the tiles that much though.
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Oct 11, 2017 15:12
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cool new Metroid game posted:I find stelaris to be pretty bland and boring. I can't really connect to the world like I can with the ck or eu games and I really don't like designing spaceships so the battles are just really meh for me. I don't really mind the tiles that much though. I think part of the problem is there is a disconnect from current or past history. I've found as more events get added this problem has been less of an issue. There is still the problem of it being "generic" since it has no basis in real history. Then again perhaps that's just me.
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Oct 11, 2017 15:47
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Actually I think Wiz talked about specifically that during PdxCon, video should probably be available at Paradox Extra youtube channel somewhere.
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Oct 11, 2017 15:49
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Groogy posted:Actually I think Wiz talked about specifically that during PdxCon, video should probably be available at Paradox Extra youtube channel somewhere. Cool, I've been out of the paradox loop for a while, so I probably missed it. I'll have to look for it. Also because I missed the return date after my surgery, I tried playing Stellaris with the steam controller...not totally optimally, but surprisingly workable. Though I have to admit there is the desire to go back to a K/M. But for playing around before bed it's very workable. Also the UI scaling works so well...which helps a lot too.
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Oct 11, 2017 15:57
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MazelTovCocktail posted:I think part of the problem is there is a disconnect from current or past history. I've found as more events get added this problem has been less of an issue. There is still the problem of it being "generic" since it has no basis in real history. Then again perhaps that's just me. Funnily enough this is why I feel more forgiving and engaged with Stellaris. With no need to worry about historicity and wanting mechanics and the game to reflect historical processes, I find myself much more easily just enjoying the game in front of me. It doesn't help much that the Stellaris team is really the only one at Paradox right now that I trust to always be enhancing and improving the game, as opposed to adding a bunch of bells and whistles that don't address much.
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Oct 11, 2017 16:45
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History is good because it gives context and narrative to a game that is otherwise just about blobbing up CIV and games like that get away with being free form by using actual characters with actual personality, which uhh, again, is missing I could relate how Stellaris has to make due with emerging narratives and how that fails because ironically their slate is loving tiny compared to every other Paradox game but ehh Like, seriously, that game tiny usually, even if you plop max planets and other players in a max size galaxy and that is loving utter hell because of the poo poo war system with their dumb demands Like, Stellaris is the one game where their idiotic CB system really breaks down
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Oct 11, 2017 17:34
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CB systems are cool and good
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Oct 11, 2017 17:44
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Stellaris is good now.
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Oct 11, 2017 17:46
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Gort posted:CB systems are cool and good "Sir, we have conquered the final planets of the enemy! Their armies are in ruin, their lands under our control!" "Let's take three planets and a moon because this makes total, perfect sense. We are incredibly smart. So smart!" Like, yeah, it's a good idea to have some sorta limit or punishment for over-extension and taking too much stuff. Having that be "oh no u can only take dis much because ~reasons~" makes no sense in this setting
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Oct 11, 2017 17:49
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Like, Stellaris is the one game where their idiotic CB system really breaks down The worst is when the enemy you are at war with starts to colonise a new planet after you already declared war with the goal of total annexation. You can't add that new colony to your CBs after the fact and you can't stop the colonisation process.
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Oct 11, 2017 17:53
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Deceitful Penguin posted:"Sir, we have conquered the final planets of the enemy! Their armies are in ruin, their lands under our control!" Have you played recently? It's entirely possible to annex medium sized powers in a single war, or fully vassalize them.
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Oct 11, 2017 17:59
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Baronjutter posted:Have you played recently? It's entirely possible to annex medium sized powers in a single war, or fully vassalize them. Can you add wargoals after the fact? Do partitions actually do anything? Is there any diplomacy or espionage in it yet? And won't I have to pay out of the rear end to get that basic functionality?
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Oct 11, 2017 18:07
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As the game goes on wargoals get cheaper. You still can't add them to a war in progress and the interface is still bad compared to other paradox games and war is still a repetitive tacticless slog of one or two decisive fleet battles then years of siege and invade siege and invade until you have the warscore needed to get your demands. But at least the wargoal costs sort of scale. Two big powers fighting it out? Perfectly normal to see 6-10 systems change hands or entire empires vanish under annexation or broken up into liberated chunks. All that's free too, just part of the general updates to the game. Don't need any new DLC.
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Oct 11, 2017 18:17
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Nope, because I'm like 40$ behind at this point and I don't wanna spend more money on it. I don't really regret getting it, but if I'd have gotten it earlier in the Humble Monthly I'd maybe have gotten the DLC but now I just don't see the point. 
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Oct 11, 2017 18:56
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Enjoy posted:The worst is when the enemy you are at war with starts to colonise a new planet after you already declared war with the goal of total annexation. You can't add that new colony to your CBs after the fact and you can't stop the colonisation process. 
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Oct 11, 2017 21:08
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Enjoy posted:The worst is when the enemy you are at war with starts to colonise a new planet after you already declared war with the goal of total annexation. You can't add that new colony to your CBs after the fact and you can't stop the colonisation process. Huh. I guess bombarding a colony in progress should instant destroy it.
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Oct 11, 2017 21:38
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One weird trick not to get annexed
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Oct 11, 2017 22:48
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I think the first third of stellaris is a great game - it is a lot of fun to colonize the galaxy and the traits and civics are different enough that it feels like there are a few unique playstiles to do that with. The game falls apart in the middle, though, since waging war just isn't that much fun and there really isn't anything else to do once the galaxy is full. The game has a unique "crisis" mechanic that mixes up the galaxy at later stages of the game (think of it like sunset invasion in ck2), but it was recently patched to start no earlier than 200 years after the starting point... and I don't know about any of you, but I rarely make it more than a 100 years in a paradox title before I either get bored or have a new idea and start over. I also feel like it runs slower than other paradox games, but that may just be in my head.
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Oct 11, 2017 23:25
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Baronjutter posted:As the game goes on wargoals get cheaper. You still can't add them to a war in progress and the interface is still bad compared to other paradox games and war is still a repetitive tacticless slog of one or two decisive fleet battles then years of siege and invade siege and invade until you have the warscore needed to get your demands. almost as if the real fun in the game is only at the start or something... Most of the things that actually make the game good rather than just tolerable are in the DLC, which I sure as poo poo ain't getting for 20bux a pop. And the game not having real diplomacy or espionage in a space age game is, just beyond weak. I know Wiz hates them but ffs, if Total War and CIV can do agents properly surely Paradox can Also, itīs amazing how they gently caress up unique techs. Raise of hands everyone; has any single one of you used the garbage weapons you can get from the aliens you blow up in space?
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Oct 12, 2017 02:59
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I wouldn't use Civ or Total War as examples of agents done right. I think Wiz is entirely right on that point.
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Oct 12, 2017 03:12
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Also, it´s amazing how they gently caress up unique techs. Raise of hands everyone; has any single one of you used the garbage weapons you can get from the aliens you blow up in space?
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Oct 12, 2017 03:36
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Kainser posted:I wouldn't use Civ or Total War as examples of agents done right. I think Wiz is entirely right on that point. I'm getting flashbacks to fighting off endless hordes of agents in rome 2 and I'd prefer nothing come even close to that level of not-fun.
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Oct 12, 2017 04:00
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It varies from title to title but agents were great in Shogun 2. I'm not sure how that sort of thing could get applied to Stellaris in a good way though.
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Oct 12, 2017 04:55
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Fintilgin posted:Huh. I guess bombarding a colony in progress should instant destroy it. I did this last night, so bombarding a colony in progress will absolutely destroy it.
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Oct 12, 2017 07:54
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AG3 posted:I did this last night, so bombarding a colony in progress will absolutely destroy it.
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Oct 12, 2017 08:03
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Strudel Man posted:Odd. I remember that working in the past, but when I tried it recently, I was unable to do anything to the developing colony. I have no idea then. I didn't even do it on purpose; I had my fleet set to aggressive and after killing some enemy transports they just flew over to the nearby planet, bombed it, and the colony vanished.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:22
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more games should copy the star wars rebellion (the 1998 game) agent/spec ops systems.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:53
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AG3 posted:I have no idea then. I didn't even do it on purpose; I had my fleet set to aggressive and after killing some enemy transports they just flew over to the nearby planet, bombed it, and the colony vanished.
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Oct 12, 2017 11:05
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double nine posted:more games should copy the star wars rebellion (the 1998 game) agent/spec ops systems. Or that cool as hell Star Wars RTS where you could have chewbacca leading a military invasion.
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Oct 12, 2017 14:29
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Koramei posted:It varies from title to title but agents were great in Shogun 2. I'm not sure how that sort of thing could get applied to Stellaris in a good way though. You have a new category of leaders called 'Diplomats' or something, and you just assign them to other empires or projects like you do with diplomats in EUIV or your council in CKII. Spock gets assigned as a diplomat to the Blog Worf is dropped internally for counterespionage on the Klingon Sector to repress unrest and hunt enemy spies Larry the Darlock is sent as a spy to the Martian Bloodcourt to foment rebellion, attack factories, and get me spec design on their ships
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Oct 12, 2017 16:39
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