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Well...it was and it wasn't. If Crusader Kings was left at only playable catholics, you could pretty plausibly leave out most of those areas. There was a vague notion of riches coming from out east, and there were also enough riches coming Portugal's way from sub-saharan Africa, but that doesn't exactly start to matter until EU-era ship technology. Antipathy with muslims combined with the barriers of ocean and the steppe isolated the catholic world from influences east of Arabia and vice versa. But yeah, if you can play other religions, then of course anyone around the edges of the map is going to be effected by things off-map, especially with areas around the steppe that were involved in a massive trade network as well as the whole politics of steppe peoples attacking and occasionally going on massive conquest sprees that enrich them to attack further afield. Of course, more peoples and nations represented in the game mean more scenarios to play in which probably make the game more fun and varied, just the old medieval catholic simulator concept is technically viable if Paradox ever wants to cheap out. indigi posted:CK3 should add in some more interaction with the peasants/workers. mainly I'd want it to add another side to the roleplaying aspect - you can go hours in a game without getting any events that remind you peasants exist, and the only thing you can do to interact with them of your own volition is hold a feast. yeah it's a state craft game, but the peasants were an important force in the medieval world, especially when it came to the sort of impact heresies could have, or if you're a merchant republic, the trade guilds could gently caress your poo poo up as bad or worse than discontent vassals. poo poo, I should be able to go through my demesne and find any quick/strong kids and bring them to my court. Honestly if they straightened out an economic system to represent how much feudal wealth comes from peasants working the land, that's half the job right there. I bet they could set other parts up if they rounded up some random events and built a rudimentary system around them. It'd help to avoid old events getting orphaned in patches and all that old writing and scripting going to waste.
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Dec 15, 2018 06:53
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lmao if you don't want to have a game where your friend is playing a scottish king while you're off playing romance of the three kingdoms
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Dec 15, 2018 07:56
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Sindai posted:Don't forget that moving to 64 bit let them put about as many provinces (cities) in Imperator as CK2 has baronies. Even if bishoprics and towns remained unplayable that's a huge visual upgrade. Actually. The map was done and running fine in 32 bits..
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Dec 15, 2018 10:35
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pdxjohan posted:Actually. The map was done and running fine in 32 bits.. What I wouldn't have done for more people to offload map work to  But I could never afford to pay them, so It took so long to draw a map from scratch like that.
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Dec 15, 2018 11:06
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I think some kind of pop mechanics would be absolutely essential for a CK3. That's one of my biggest problems with CK2. It's a game that represents 700 years of history characterized by massive demographic changes and periods of enormous population growth and decline, and CK2's representation of that is almost non-existent. The building system is so simple with the castle, city and church holdings that it doesn't really feel like you're in charge of an actual nation of people at all, and it doesn't reflect the way people actually lived during the medieval period. I know the game is supposed to be about interactions between the feudal nobility, and I'm not saying they should make it super complex like Victoria, but they can certainly make it more reflective of the way the real medieval world worked.
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Dec 15, 2018 23:55
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I disagree, I don't think there's a need for that at all and it'd take away from the character interactions (as would any economic system as in depth, imo). Plus, while there obviously were significant demographic and population changes in any 700 year period, it really wasn't any more than in the periods that came before or after. Less, if anything. non-noble characters actually factoring into things would be nice though.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:55
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getting too far away from feudalism will break the close mechanical connection between landed familial inheritance and political power. if you start to get into clerical administration, commercial networks, town councils, then the polity becomes more and more of an abstract state structure (with lots of inputs which then have to be abstracted) and less and less of a personal familial inheritance (with only a few inputs which can be personalized)
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Dec 16, 2018 01:20
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I don't want to have to micro a bunch of peasants, I'd just like to do more than have a pop-up asking me to build a road every 5 years. even something as simple as a non-voting council spot for farmers/workers who could push for policies or request poo poo for towns/farms would be a huge improvement
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Dec 16, 2018 01:41
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I feel like the proper Crusader Kings way to do it would be that you can micromanage it as much as you want, but it's a pain in the rear end, so you'd also have the option of assigning a character to do it. Who probably has their own ideas about how to manage it and may specifically use their office to undermine your rule.
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Dec 16, 2018 01:44
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Koramei posted:I disagree, I don't think there's a need for that at all and it'd take away from the character interactions (as would any economic system as in depth, imo). Plus, while there obviously were significant demographic and population changes in any 700 year period, it really wasn't any more than in the periods that came before or after. Less, if anything. Why would it take away from character interactions? Why would it not instead add to them with more varied motivations for why characters do the things they do? It doesn't have to be some super complex thing where you micromanage peasants all over the place, but a more accurate representation of where people live and in what number and how they are arranged socially would be nice. Like look at this map of human populations through time and watch through CK2's timeframe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUwmA3Q0_OE The population of northern India should be loving huge relative to everywhere else on the CK2 map. Most of Europe should be sparsely populated by comparison. Yet in CK2, northern India doesn't really look any different from the rest of the subcontinent or any random part of Europe. CK2 kinda vaguely simulates population by having fewer holdings in places like the steppes of central Asia, but it doesn't really do it very well. CK2's system of castles/cities/church holdings doesn't really reflect the way people lived or how power was organized either. Most people were rural and not in cities, particularly in Europe. Power struggles between cities and landed feudal nobility that owned the rural areas featured prominently back then, but in CK2, cities outside of merchant republics don't really have much function beside the "more money/fewer troops" thing. The merchant republics usually get crushed in my games too unless I start in the late period. And you said that population changes were even less of a thing than any other period? What about the Black Death? Or the Mongol Invasions? The Black Death changed the world in such a profound and dramatic way that it's hard to even imagine, and it took 200 years for the world population to reach its previous level. It changed the way power was organized and the way the class system worked. In CK2, the Black Death just gives you an economic/levy size penalty in each province for a couple of years and nothing else, and then it goes back to the previous level. Oh and one more thing: having some kind of pop mechanics with the lower classes represented means you could have better peasant rebellions. Instead of the generic whack-a-mole peasant rebellions CK2 has now. All history is the history of class struggle isn't it? Since CK2 ignores the lower classes and is just a game about feuding nobility, that means that adding detailed pop mechanics, lower class representation and more provinces like Imperator would be the big jump that would make CK3 stand out. So: CK2 = squabbling nobles CK3 = squabbling nobles + class war Ivan Shitskin fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 02:55
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Yeah, I don't know. That scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail was amusing but I wouldn't really want a whole game about it.
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Dec 16, 2018 04:36
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Ivan Shitskin posted:Why would it take away from character interactions? Why would it not instead add to them with more varied motivations for why characters do the things they do? It doesn't have to be some super complex thing where you micromanage peasants all over the place, but a more accurate representation of where people live and in what number and how they are arranged socially would be nice. Like look at this map of human populations through time and watch through CK2's timeframe: quote:The population of northern India should be loving huge relative to everywhere else on the CK2 map. Most of Europe should be sparsely populated by comparison. Yet in CK2, northern India doesn't really look any different from the rest of the subcontinent or any random part of Europe. quote:All history is the history of class struggle isn't it? 
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Dec 16, 2018 04:44
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There's clearly things about the economic side of CK that could be improved but I don't think slapping a pop system into every single Paradox game is the answer here.
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Dec 16, 2018 04:45
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Koramei posted:There's clearly things about the economic side of CK that could be improved but I don't think slapping a pop system into every single Paradox game is the answer here. there should be a pop system in every game
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Dec 16, 2018 05:51
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I call it soda.
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Dec 16, 2018 06:00
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Pie charts for ck3
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Dec 16, 2018 07:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjkSUZu24sA
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Dec 16, 2018 08:05
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Strudel Man posted:Yeah, I don't know. That scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail was amusing but I wouldn't really want a whole game about it. I do.
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Dec 16, 2018 08:20
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Beamed posted:I'm pretty sure this is pre-CK2 though, which is far and away Paradox's most successful title (maybe excepting Stellaris?), to the point I've met people who only have a Steam account for it. Going with Steamcharts nothing really changed. Crusader Kings 2 is still the lesser Paradox title, with HoI4 and EU4 having almost or more than twice the playerbase. Stellaris is currently the most popular due to new DLC and big patch, and I think it's their best selling title, but it always had trouble keeping people's attention outside of those dlc cycles, EU4 and HoI4 have better and more consistent averages and peaks overall. Maybe that will change with 2.2. and Stellaris will finally be a game fun to play beyond the first hour of any campaign. CK2 in November had an average of 7,954.2 players.(With a DLC release in October it had 4,328.2) https://steamcharts.com/app/203770 HoI4 in November had an average of 12,921.4 players https://steamcharts.com/app/394360 EU4 in November had an average of 11,335.8 players https://steamcharts.com/app/236850 Stellaris in November had an average of 8,242.1 players https://steamcharts.com/app/281990 It's really impressive that it remains this active considering how old it is, but it always had less players than EU4 which is also ancient in videogame years. I think people often forget that if you can't get into the roleplaying aspect, or you're like me and can't keep the characters straight, CK2 can often feel boring, frustrating, random, and not fun at all. EU4 and HoI4 despite everything, are much more straightforward games to get in.
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Dec 16, 2018 13:42
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I want to love Hoi. The economy management stuff and the trees are right up my alley, i just really don't care about ww2 anymore. Hopefully some good total conversion mods are out there.
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Dec 16, 2018 16:05
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Demon_Corsair posted:I want to love Hoi. The economy management stuff and the trees are right up my alley, i just really don't care about ww2 anymore. Hopefully some good total conversion mods are out there. loads of them half of them are even finished of those, a third or so are good!
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Dec 16, 2018 16:12
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Electronico6 posted:CK2 in November had an average of 7,954.2 players.(With a DLC release in October it had 4,328.2) and yet man the guns has no release date and there's no timeline for a soviet focus tree rework
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Dec 16, 2018 16:16
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Demon_Corsair posted:I want to love Hoi. The economy management stuff and the trees are right up my alley, i just really don't care about ww2 anymore. Hopefully some good total conversion mods are out there. total conversion mods: Old world blues: a better fallout game than 76. lets me play the ncr and put a bullet in the ranchers instead of giving them a food monopoly so it gets a thumbs up from me Kaissereich: an insanely detailed mod set in an alternate history where germany won ww1, dehumanize yourself and face to event popups Apres le moi, deluge: alternate history where napoleon won. All killer, very little filler. 1984: Base of the book of the same name. Meant to be played in multiplayer, but single player functions fine. Red World: 
Agean90 fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 16:20
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Kaiserreich should really be a Victoria III mod.
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Dec 16, 2018 16:28
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Also both 1984 and Apres le moi, deluge are made by goons so support goon modders.
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Dec 16, 2018 16:29
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Kaiserreich should really be a Victoria III mod. i think it suffers from leaning in too hard on focus trees. Its been getting better about using decisions for pidly things and finally learned that 70 day focuses actually suck poo poo, but it has a ways to go to being good once the novelty wears off
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Dec 16, 2018 16:32
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I’d love to know what Paradox devs in here are thinking when these massive lists of detailed ideas on how to make a game. I guess they’re all numb to it from their own terrible forums.
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Dec 16, 2018 16:33
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I’d love to know what Paradox devs in here are thinking when these massive lists of detailed ideas on how to make a game. I guess they’re all numb to it from their own terrible forums. i still maintain that armies as counters you click around the map are dated and should be replaced in vicky 3 with a system that better represents the increased use of preplanning and mobilization in warfare
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Dec 16, 2018 16:35
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I’d love to know what Paradox devs in here are thinking when these massive lists of detailed ideas on how to make a game. I guess they’re all numb to it from their own terrible forums. Paradox fans are the worst. If you were a Paradox dev, and you had the forum you do, would you listen to fans?
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Dec 16, 2018 16:41
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I would listen very closely, and then do the opposite.
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Dec 16, 2018 17:06
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Minenfeld! posted:Paradox fans are the worst. If you were a Paradox dev, and you had the forum you do, would you listen to fans? I’d spitefully give them exactly what they wanted and take pleasure in their misery as they struggle with the resulting broken mess. FYI I’m willing to move to Sweden for a management position. Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 17:28
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Agean90 posted:i still maintain that armies as counters you click around the map are dated and should be replaced in vicky 3 with a system that better represents the increased use of preplanning and mobilization in warfare
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Dec 16, 2018 18:09
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I’d love to know what Paradox devs in here are thinking when these massive lists of detailed ideas on how to make a game. I guess they’re all numb to it from their own terrible forums. I bet they like it since they hire people from these forums Paradox hire me I can draw and paint stuff for you if my ideas suck
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Dec 16, 2018 22:05
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Ivan Shitskin posted:I bet they like it since they hire people from these forums I don’t think they hire the people who are the ideas guys. Most of the people they hire actually do stuff
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Dec 16, 2018 22:06
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Since we're just spitballing about CK3 I'll throw in my two cents What makes CK2 feel different from EU and Stellaris for me is the focus on individual character and legacy more than anything else. It feels wayyyyy more like "Roleplaying" as an individual person than any of the other games do, and I think that's the core of it that they shouldn't let drift away Also there's no reason to not include at least China. If you're gonna do an era, do the era
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Dec 16, 2018 23:09
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CK3 should only feature Western Europe and include a hyperdetailed simulation of the minutiae of high Middle Ages feudalism where for example you must face the consequences of disobeying the rules of heraldry
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Dec 16, 2018 23:21
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I don't play CK2 to role play. Role playing has always bored me. I like CK2 because it feels like an organic representation of government with good reasons for things happening. I'm looking forward to Imperator for that reason.
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Dec 16, 2018 23:30
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thats roleplaying, op
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Dec 16, 2018 23:56
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just throwing out ideas but what if in CK3 whenever a crusade is launched it loads up a level of Altered Beast where you take control of the pope and if you fight your way to the end and defeat the three headed caliph then you win and his lands become yours paradox you don't have to hire me but I expect a generous cut of the profits
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Dec 16, 2018 23:59
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Paradox Offices, 2020. A roomful of game devs struggle to come up with the breakthrough they need. Following up their wildly successful Crusader Kings 2 with a sequel is a demanding task and thus far no one has come up with the killer idea that will separate this game from it's predecessor. The work day drags into it's fifth hour, in violation of many Swedish maximum overtime statutes, and tempers are flaring. Suddenly, inspiration strikes. Johann stands up. He charges over to the large marker board they have been using for brainstorming. He erases it - destroying hours of hard thinking in a moment - and writes three large words. Mouths agape, everyone stares. Then, they begin to clap. What did it say? "Make. It. Anime."
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Dec 17, 2018 00:27
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