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chairface
Oct 28, 2007
No matter what you believe, I don't believe in you.

I not only never use the '39 start in Hoi4 but wish we had a '33 or '30 start option.

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reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012

REPORT QUICKLY
IF YOU SEE
TRUFFULA HORDING
TO THE NKVD


Funky Valentine posted:

Hell, even the 1939 start date for Hearts of Iron is pretty much never used.

I dunno, for that one at least you've got one of the 'learn hearts of iron" recommendations of "just invade poland from the 1939 start date over and over until you start beating the nazi's actual time."

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



My god what have I done?

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I just pretend to be nice.


Lipstick Apathy

Ivan Shitskin posted:

I like having the different start dates. It's fun to just zoom around the map in the different start dates looking at how everything was.

This is literally the only reason I think taking them out is a loss for the non-CK2 Paradox games. When I first got EU4 I totally did check out how the world progressed through history a whole bunch of times. 1000 hours later and I literally never touch it now, but when I first bought the game the notion I'd be able to play at any time was legitimately appealing.

I do actually use the different start dates in CK2 tho.

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!


AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:

My god what have I done?

🎶Letting the days go by🎶

Senor Dog
Jul 5, 2006



Soiled Meat

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

The mechanics don’t break down but the start date determines everything.

I’d love to see a CK3 where you can start in 867 and NOT see the Karlings rolling along in 1066. I’d love to see the 1066 HRE not immediately conquer all of Italy. Etc.

I like that the game plays differently for each start date instead of exactly the same as history always and forever

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


Edgar Allen Ho posted:

The mechanics don’t break down but the start date determines everything.

I’d love to see a CK3 where you can start in 867 and NOT see the Karlings rolling along in 1066. I’d love to see the 1066 HRE not immediately conquer all of Italy. Etc.

problem with that is then you have to have some bombastic way for empires to fall

which means some bombastic way for the player to fail and lose their poo poo while still making it fun and not demoralizing

Strudel Man
May 19, 2003
ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

Just make it only affect the AI. vv

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

FAAAATHEEER
THE SLEEEEEEPER HAS *snooze*


Senor Dog posted:

I like that the game plays differently for each start date instead of exactly the same as history always and forever

I'd rather have something different and fun from the same start date than each start date playing out exactly the same though. Literally no one is arguing for what you're proposing here.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock?


Funky Valentine posted:

Hell, even the 1939 start date for Hearts of Iron is pretty much never used.

I liked the old Götterdämmerung start date from HOI2 but even then it was only more of a challenge-mode choice than anything.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017



Senor Dog posted:

I like that the game plays differently for each start date instead of exactly the same as history always and forever

Thing is it already plays exactly the same depending on what start you pick but THANK GOD it’s different from irl, in the same way, every time.

It’s honestly p loving infuriating that people don’t get that 12 february 1158 producing the same, insane results every time you pick it is bad, and that “perhaps it should be possible for 13 february 1158 as it happened, or other cool results, to exist” does not mean “history railroading forever”

Like picking 867 should not mean “automatic karling border gore for 600 years”

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at Feb 18, 2019 around 08:57

Cantorsdust
Aug 9, 2008

Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Top Cop

chairface posted:

I not only never use the '39 start in Hoi4 but wish we had a '33 or '30 start option.

Correct choice here

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

So I'm just relearning to play CK2 after not having played since retinues were new, and it seems to me appropriate that the further back in time you go the more liable things are to play out completely differently.

Also watching heresy break out everywhere because the Catholic realms are being overwhelmed by pagan raiders is fantastic for creating a sense of 'crisis everywhere' that your realm has to deal with. And Crusade rewards are hilariously broken.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


Drone posted:

I liked the old Götterdämmerung start date from HOI2 but even then it was only more of a challenge-mode choice than anything.

I remember that starting date looked a nightmare on paper for the germans but they kindly gave them all the tools for a giant sweeping encirclement of 70% of the soviet army on the first month of the scenario, meaning you could wipe out the biggest threat of the scenario before the end of the year.

Senor Dog
Jul 5, 2006



Soiled Meat

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Thing is it already plays exactly the same depending on what start you pick but THANK GOD it’s different from irl, in the same way, every time.

It’s honestly p loving infuriating that people don’t get that 12 february 1158 producing the same, insane results every time you pick it is bad, and that “perhaps it should be possible for 13 february 1158 as it happened, or other cool results, to exist” does not mean “history railroading forever”

Like picking 867 should not mean “automatic karling border gore for 600 years”

It is “infuriating” that I disagree about a video game thing being bad? Ok buddy maybe you should go outside

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009


Fun Shoe

chairface posted:

I not only never use the '39 start in Hoi4 but wish we had a '33 or '30 start option.

It would be a lot more fun and give more options before the start of the actual wars. Now they implemented Naval treaties there might even be some sort of containment wars before actual WWII kicks off. They might have to fiddle some with the tech tree but it'd be a nice choice for an expansion. Revamp the Italian and Soviet trees while giving everyone an earlier start date.

Eastbound Spider
Jan 2, 2011



Problem:
Too many Karlings

Solution:
One really sharp axe

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Eastbound Spider posted:

Problem:
Too many Karlings

Solution:
One really sharp axe
Sorry I prefer to use several moderately sharp axes.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

There wanst any Karlings in my current game (790 start), I dont know why.

I even searched for them in the character finder, and found only a bunch of "somename-Karling", but not proper Karling

Maybe they got wiped in the beginning somehow

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


the Karlings are the descendants of Charlemagne. In 769, Charles isn't even Charlemagne yet.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Cease to Hope posted:

the Karlings are the descendants of Charlemagne. In 769, Charles isn't even Charlemagne yet.

I know. But when I missed the Karlings and decided to search for one, it was already > 900. And Im currently in 1150 and still theres none

And I had never seem that, maybe something happened with old Charles, Im not playing in Europe so I didint noticed. In this game the HRE never formed either, and instead theres a huge empire of Francia run by a Niebelung or somthing like that

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I don't particularly know how they'd help the Karlings die off other than giving the Carolingian bloodline a fertility penalty and extra revolt risk.

Cease to Hope posted:

the Karlings are the descendants of Charlemagne. In 769, Charles isn't even Charlemagne yet.

Technically, the descendants of Charles the Hammer. I don't know if the character search system actually goes by last name. You might wanna check the history of the King of France title. It sounds like something went really wrong.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

SlothfulCobra posted:

Technically, the descendants of Charles the Hammer. I don't know if the character search system actually goes by last name. You might wanna check the history of the King of France title. It sounds like something went really wrong.

So I did that and thats what I found:




The Karlings got extinct at the very beginning of the game.

I dont remember how it was supposed to happen, but it seems like Pepin had a matrilineal marriage, and Charles was murdered before having children, and so the Karlings died

Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2019 around 11:52

Party In My Diapee
Jan 24, 2014


In the ledger there is a list of bloodlines, including dead ones. Would have been easier to check there.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Party In My Diapee posted:

In the ledger there is a list of bloodlines, including dead ones. Would have been easier to check there.

Oh, I didint though of that. This is my first game since bloodlines were introduced

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


The CK2 thread is this way: https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3874093

We have a big OP that should answer most new or returning player questions, and are always happy to help out with any problems you might need solutions for


By the way, different start dates are very good in CK2. Edgar Allen Ho has a point, if you start in the Charlemagne start date, the game is very likely to go off the rails in a spectacular fashion. This is also not unlikely to happen in the Old Gods start. If you start in 1066 or later, Christianity is pretty firmly established, and pagans simply rolling them becomes pretty unlikely.

But that's what these start dates are for. Want to play the Hansa without waiting 200 or more years for it to form? Choose a later start date. Want to be play a big viking realm, pillaging all of Europe? Old Gods or Charlemagne start dates are for you. Want to lead the Piasts to glory? Firmly establish the Latin Empire? Kick the infidels out of the Holy Land as Saladin? Kick French butt as the Plantagenets? Defend mother Russia against the Mongols as the Rurikids? Lead the Fatimids to become the rightful caliphs of ALL Muslims? You just have to pick the right start date.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Torrannor posted:

The CK2 thread is this way: https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3874093

We have a big OP that should answer most new or returning player questions, and are always happy to help out with any problems you might need solutions for

I know, I know. People were talking about the Karlings and I just commented that in my current game I saw none, which is very rare, in my experience

Deceitful Penguin
Feb 16, 2011


Ofaloaf in big trouble in the development clash for Imperator

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Deceitful Penguin posted:

Ofaloaf in big trouble in the development clash for Imperator

I'm rooting for the guy in Britain whos just conquering everything while ignoring AE

axeil
Feb 14, 2006

I got a new dance for y'all I call it the Philly Special


Wedge Regret

chairface posted:

I not only never use the '39 start in Hoi4 but wish we had a '33 or '30 start option.

A '33 start date for HOI4 would be really interesting and I feel like with the alt-history scenarios we're sort of getting there. By '36 I dunno that there was much of a chance of Hitler getting overthrown internally by the military but they've modeled it out with only the most utterly implausible paths (Communist Germany, Fascist USSR, etc.) locked out.

I guess it would probably be needed for a good alt-history USSR path because by '36 Stalin had concentrated his power fairly well. I can't really see how you put Zinoviev, Kamenev, Bukharin, Trotsky, etc. in charge of the USSR without some real crazy poo poo while a start in '30 (well '29) you could have Stalin lose an internal Party power struggle and not have everything descend into civil war or be utterly implausible like the current Trotsky USSR mechanics are.

edit: the USSR and arguably Italy make start dates even back into the 20s really attractive. You could have a whole mechanic for the power struggle after Lenin's death in '24 or stop Mussolini in '22 but at that point the start date is so far back you might introduce a lot more problems than you solve.

axeil fucked around with this message at Feb 21, 2019 around 18:34

Chief Savage Man
Jul 19, 2010

i care, i'm listening, i can help you without giving any advice


Pillbug

The problem I've always had with earlier starts, at least in mods I've played, is that it's tough to balance it so that you don't wind up with 1945 level mega armies in 1939. You'd have to introduce more stuff to limit military buildup, which runs the risk of making the years feel like waiting for points of divergence and not doing much else.

Alikchi
Aug 18, 2010

Thumbs up I agree


I'd kind of love a war breaking out in the early 30s with lots of tankettes and T-26s and such, though. Plus carriers/aircraft being less effective against battleships etc.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009


Would that really feel like a different kind of war given HOIs combat mechanics though?

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


Earlier HOI4 starts will always have the problem that the player's nation is ruled by a time traveler from the future who knows about the inevitability of WWII. It makes the game less about (alt-)history and more about breaking or exploiting whatever systems are supposed to stop you kicking off the war before everyone else's mechanical limitations on mobilization have timed out.

HOI4 already has a little bit of that problem, but at least kicking off the war in 1937 instead of 1939 gives the AI enough time to at least get started on its (alt-)historical war track.

Communist Bear
Oct 7, 2008



I need some quick advice - in EUIV is there a way to increase max diplomatic relations so that I don't get a negative modifier from countries complaining that I have too many? Or do I need to pick my alliances more carefully?

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


the second thing. you can get more diplo slots but the limit is intended to keep you from single-handedly forming the UN a few centuries early

Vivian Darkbloom
Jul 14, 2004
Generic poster who whines about the mods to get attention.


Grimey Drawer

The main penalty from too many diplo relations isn't so much the diplomatic penalties as all the DIP points you'll burn. See https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Diplom...c_relations_cap for the full details.

Communist Bear
Oct 7, 2008



Cease to Hope posted:

the second thing. you can get more diplo slots but the limit is intended to keep you from single-handedly forming the UN a few centuries early

Cool thanks. I'm playing Teutonic Order and obviously in order to survive I need to have good alliances. Muscovy is pretty friendly after a diplomatic relations boost, and Austria also, so just needing to play against Poland/Lithuania pack.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Imperator's tribal migration system seems neat, but I wonder if they have more nomadic groups represented? Like both the fully nomadic groups and the seasonally nomadic.

Come to think of it, I wonder how pop migration is represented. Can the different-culture pops within your empire flock to your cities? Or can tribes migrating petition you to immigrate into your land?

And what in particular would motivate you or the AI to migrate?

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axeil
Feb 14, 2006

I got a new dance for y'all I call it the Philly Special


Wedge Regret

Cease to Hope posted:

Earlier HOI4 starts will always have the problem that the player's nation is ruled by a time traveler from the future who knows about the inevitability of WWII. It makes the game less about (alt-)history and more about breaking or exploiting whatever systems are supposed to stop you kicking off the war before everyone else's mechanical limitations on mobilization have timed out.

HOI4 already has a little bit of that problem, but at least kicking off the war in 1937 instead of 1939 gives the AI enough time to at least get started on its (alt-)historical war track.

I always found the solution for that being not going out and intentionally doing things to increase world tension. No guaranteeing Ethiopia/Austria or anything else like that to try and force an early war.

Of course if you're playing as Germany/Japan you are the aggressors so if you move the timeline up that's on you.

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